Author Topic: Dankoff Solar Force Piston Pump (Read 26810 times)

thirteen · « **Reply #33 on:** February 06, 2012, 02:00:26 PM »

SteveCH
I do not know the distance of your water line but as an idea you might think of running a 1 1/2 line beside your water lines and plumb it into the house, Fix a small fan on the end of it and when it gets cold enough to freeze the line turn the fan on and heat the pipe which sits beside water line with the house air. I am doing this where I cross the creek and the road beside it. I have a 4 inch pvc pipe in the center of a 12 in pipe 16 ft long. The heating line and the water line go thru the middle of the 4 pvc which is in the middle if the 12 pipe. I will foam insulate the gap and paint the pipe green. The 4 inch pvc is extended across the road and exits in the water line drain box which is vented and insulated.
I cannot go under the creek because mother earth hardened skin is there and I can only go down about 16 inchs under the road and she is there agian. I thought this idea might help.

SteveCH · « **Reply #34 on:** February 06, 2012, 04:42:46 PM »

Thirteen, good idea. Thanks. However, I have since built a small room addition to the house for storage and that room sits over the supply pipe from the cistern. We are ok now. But I like your solution.....

thirteen · « **Reply #35 on:** February 06, 2012, 06:06:26 PM »

SteveCH I am thinking of running a pipe up to the sugar shack (outhouse) sort of a preheat system.

Revolutionary · « **Reply #36 on:** February 20, 2012, 03:39:52 PM »

I think I'm going to pull the trigger on (2) grundfos SQ Flex's, one for my well (uphill 500+ feet) and another for my spring (uphill 200 feet). Both will be 48VDC, battery, and after doign the numbers, it will save ower, for sure, around 40% overall, but the BIG thing is that it gets rid of the killer surge that comes from my well pump I have now. That pump uses 11VAC@ 240VAC, running, but the surge on it is taxing my 4400 Watt Magnum Inverter too much.
I'm a little scared of what the pump is gonna run me for the deep one.....
Chris

My name is Chris Walsh, I am a Real Estate Broker in North Idaho. I can't place a link here, but if you PM me or do a google search you will find the link to the information I posted that was removed by the moderators becuase I don't have 50 posts.
Chris

damian · « **Reply #37 on:** February 20, 2012, 05:58:00 PM »

Chris,

Please consider posting a little more information about what you want these pumps to do, the sizes of the pipes you expect to push the water through, and the power supply from which they will be fed. Many online vendors will be happy to sell you an SQF or two, and the price is generally the same for all models, but it would be my guess, based on many years of working in this field that those same online vendors may have trouble giving you good advice on which model best suits your needs. I'd be happy to help you with that if I have enough information to work with.

Best,

Damian

Revolutionary · « **Reply #38 on:** February 20, 2012, 06:21:47 PM »

Damian,
Thanks, kindly, for the help.
I'm going to need (2) pumps, one is a well pump, pushing water vertically about 500 feet, horizontally another 300 or so. I have a 3,000 gallon cistern above the house, to gravity feed the house. The plumbing going to it is 1 1/4 from the bottom of the well to cistern.

The second pump will go from a spring fed (1,000 gallon) cistern to the same cistern above the house. It will not need to lift as high, and that's why I have originally thought about doing it with a Dankoff Solar Force pump. It will also be using a 1 1/4 inch line, and will need to lift about 200 feet total, over about 300 feet horizontally.

Both pumps will run on 48VDC battery power.

There you have it.....

Thanks, Damian. Good idea-
Chris

damian · « **Reply #39 on:** February 21, 2012, 12:22:53 AM »

Okay Chris, In the first case, for the well pump lifting 500 feet vertically you really only have one model of SQF that will do the job. For that one you want a 3SQF-3. Do not attempt to use any other model since that is the only one that will do that lift. That is a positive displacement pump so it will be efficient over a wide range of outputs. Expect it to use 350 watts to lift 2 GPM that far or running full speed to use about 500 watts to lift 2.8 GPM.
For the 200 foot lift you have more choices. A 3 SQF-2 in that situation will do 2.8 GPM with 300 watts, a 6SQF-2 will do 5.8 GPM with 420 watts, and an 11SQF-2 will do 12 GPM with 780 watts.
In both cases the 1-1/4" lines will not be a problem, but 12 GPM through that size line will start to develop some friction head. I would not try to push much more than that through it because you will start to waste power doing it. Important note, this assumes that you are talking about 1-1/4" PVC. If it is something else, i.e. smaller, especially say, an 1-1/4" CTS HPDE line, then think about staying with a smaller pump so as not to waste power.
As you can see from the figures I've provided, you get a little more efficiency with the larger pumps, just make sure you are not trying to push more water than is ideal through a given line size, as that will take away the small efficiency advantage of the larger pump and then some.

Best,

Damian

Revolutionary · « **Reply #40 on:** February 21, 2012, 12:41:57 AM »

Damian,
PM me with a phone number, please. I'd like to speak with you about this in person, if I can, at some point. Do you sell these pumps?
Chris

damian · « **Reply #41 on:** February 21, 2012, 12:27:24 PM »

Hi Chris,

I'd be happy to talk with you about this. Yes I sell these pumps, but I will not sell outside my area because I warranty everything I sell. I will not sell a pump to someone outside of where I can install it. I'm licensed to do that in my state. My postings here are only about sharing my experience in this field, not about putting money in my pocket. I've followed your tussles with the site mods and I have to say I am annoyed enough by the plethora of what seem to be fast buck operators on the internet who all want to sell you something, often with no understanding of what it really is or how to use it, that I completely understand the reasons for the rules they are enforcing. I hope I'm not running afoul of them. I just like r.e. stuff and have lots of experience setting up and maintaining water systems. Where I live I'm the go to guy for anyone doing this stuff and I just get bored in the winter sometimes so I read this board and enjoy it so I figured I'd help out where I had some expertise.

Best,

Damian

Bruce S · « **Reply #42 on:** February 21, 2012, 01:20:23 PM »

Damain;
Not to worry you are certainly NOT running afoul of the rules here.
Cheers;
Bruce S

Striider · « **Reply #43 on:** March 05, 2012, 11:28:11 AM »

Yeah Steve- looks like a very similar set up that you have.

OK got the well drilled. 360 feet

Hit some water at 200 and more at 300 for a total of about 3.5 gpm flow. I guess the pump will sit around 355ish. Still wanting to go with the Grundfos SQFlex so I can run it off of 110v into a pressure tank or cistern. Still weighing the pros and cons of cistern vs pressure tank.

Damian: I am trying to figure out which one to order and I think I need the 6 SQF-2?

damian · « **Reply #44 on:** March 05, 2012, 12:59:29 PM »

6SQF-2 will work fine. 6 SQF-3 will also work well and possibly be a bit more efficient, depending on the characteristics of the well. Is the static level in the well about 200 feet then? If the well was drilled with an air rotary and the stated flow is based on the rig's air supply blowing the water up out of the well then you may find that you get more production when you have a pump in there, especially in very porous geologic formations. If the stated flow was established with a bailer then you will likely be very close to that with a pump. In any case, my biggest concern would be overpumping of the well which would cause the SQF to shut down on run dry and wait a few minutes and restart. If that becomes a problem you could be back to a small cistern to allow uninterrupted flow, but if I were you I'd probably put a 6SQF-2 in it if it was air rotary drilled, hoping for a little more production and that your average pumping depth is going to be, say, 250 feet. The real problem here is that you will likely be looking at a range of lifts as the well draws down with pumping and, unless you do a pumping/drawdown test first then it is a bit of a guess as to what your average pumping depth will be. Hope any of this makes sense.

Damian

Striider · « **Reply #45 on:** March 05, 2012, 04:38:36 PM »

Thanks Damian. It was an air rotary, and he flow was measured (guesstimated) by the air blowing water up. I had to leave before they did the final testing so I am unsure exactly how the testing was done.

damian · « **Reply #46 on:** March 05, 2012, 05:04:10 PM »

That's what I thought. The most common method to measure the flow is to collect it in a five gallon bucket and see how long it takes to fill, so it can be a bit imprecise. In any case, I would be optimistic that you can get more flow with a pump. This is because with the air blowing the water up, the same pressure that is forcing the water up and out the top of the well is also forcing the water back into the rock. I did a flow test on a mountain well a few years ago where the driller had listed the production as 4 GPM but under pumping it will do 12 GPM. That well is in very open granite, so I'm not saying that any increase you see will necessarily be as dramatic as that, but you may well get more than the 3.5 GPM. My guess is that you will be fine with the pressure tank setup. Oh. I just remembered something very important. If you are using the pressure tank setup then use the 6SQF-3. This is because the pump is lifting the water out of the well and providing the pressure to the pressure tank, so you need to add the equivalent head in feet (2.31 x psi). This will make your total head, say, from 300 to 450 feet. At those heads the 6SQF-2 will be running out of breath, whereas the the 6SQF-3 will be happy as a clam. If the well can produce the 5.5 to 6 GPM that that pump will move at full power (which is how it will run, connected to a battery bank and inverter) then you should be in good shape. My guess is it will, but that is only a guess.

Striider · « **Reply #47 on:** March 07, 2012, 01:06:50 PM »

Damian- your guesses were spot on. Got the official report today.

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/707/wellstats.jpg/
If it doesn't display, you should be able to right click and open in a new tab.

A couple of tactical questions:

This pump says it takes a 1" NPT pipe. Should I use a flexible sprinkler style polyethylene pipe in all one piece, or 1" pvc pipe all joined together in 20' lengths or something else?

Looks like I need some kind of pipe near 200 psi??? Wow.

(Depth X .433) + (switch setting) = Working Pressure

350x.433= 151.55 PSI + 40 psi water pressure = 191.55 PSI working pressure

Wiring - thinking to make it the 350' + 75' to the house, I should just buy a 500 ft roll. Since this pump runs on varying voltage, can I use 14 gauge wire to get down to it and not worry about the voltage drop, or do I need something beefier like 10 gauge?

As usual- thanks in advance!

-edit- added link for image-

damian · « **Reply #48 on:** March 07, 2012, 08:34:05 PM »

I personally prefer to run Shedule 80 PVC drop pipe to the pump. It does require a pump truck or some creative rigging to do that. Some people prefer to use polyethylene, mostly in shallower wells where you can pull it by hand. You are looking at about 200 psi at the pump, so 200 psi poly tube would do the job. If you go that route get some very good quality brass or stainless thread x barb fittings for each end of the poly and double clamp it with good quality all stainless steel hose clamps. Also run a safety wire or rope to the pump, just in case the poly ever comes loose. If you set up some type of winch you could even conceivably pull the pump yourself with that setup. All that being said, if I were doing it I'd use 1" Schedule 80 threaded PVC with brass or stainless couplings. As for wire, that pump is very close to a 1 HP centrifugal in output so, even though it is more efficient I would go by the wire sizing charts for a 1 HP centrifugal. Those say that you can go 400 feet with #12 and 630 feet with #10. You only need 2 conductors plus a ground. Be sure to use a good quality heat shrink underwater splice kit to make the connection at the pump.

Best,

Damian

Striider · « **Reply #49 on:** March 08, 2012, 05:25:57 PM »

Got the pump on the way. Ouch, my wallet hurts!

Now to find the wire and pvc locally. Found a 500' roll of 10-2 w/ground submersible pump wire for $1.11 a foot if I buy a full roll. Still looking for a source on threaded PVC.

I was thinking more about the wire situation. Those figures you quoted were for 220 volt current, which has less voltage drop over distance, which is one reason I opted for the 10 gauge, which may still have quite a bit of drop at 400+ feet. Thinking ahead, if I ever want to run the pump straight to the panels at 50 volt DC, I am going to have horrendous drop with low DC current. Is my logic flawed here? I am trying to avoid having to buy another roll of the 10 gauge wire and send it down the hole...just in case!

damian · « **Reply #50 on:** March 08, 2012, 08:16:49 PM »

Too true. Maybe others here can give better help on wire sizing than I.

bergmanj · « **Reply #51 on:** March 13, 2012, 11:08:33 AM »

Striider,

Wire sizing is generally straight-forward (though there are a few "gotchyas" that can show-up.

For strictly current-handling capacity (no length taken into account for length resistance losses), the approximate current needed is inversly proportional to the voltage supply; i. e., for 480 watts at 120 Volts, the current is calculated as requiring a minimum wire size to handle 4 Amps. For the same wattage running on 48 VDC nominal, divide 120 by 48, then multiply by 4 (the amperage at 120 volts), resulting in a minimum amperage of 10 Amps (10 A * 48 Volts = the same 480 watts).

Distance now comes into play in that the longer wire presents more total resistance which equals more wire loss. To "retrieve" that loss requires even larger wire. Those calculations are very dependent on the specific application.

I'd be willing to walk you through that part, once you have all the other "stuff" figured-out, if you want. Let me know in the affirmative when ready.

Regards, JLB

damian · « **Reply #52 on:** March 15, 2012, 11:27:07 AM »

Okay, I'll double check this stuff if I get some time, but my first crack at this says that my first WAG using standard sizing tables was not far off. Consulting loss tables tells me that using #10 @ 450 ft and 120 volts gives you just under 3% loss at 800 watts max power for that pump. If you want to maintain that level of (acceptable) loss using 50 vdc you will have some issues, like, can't do it. If that is an emergency back up type of situation maybe you can live with it. It's not like you will burn the pump up or it won't run, it will just underperform the curves. Or perhaps you can series some panels to feed higher voltage to the pump. Also you may consider only running the #10 down the well and using larger wire on the rest. If you want to keep losses under 3% with that 50 vdc supply you will need to step clear up to #2 wire for the 450 feet. I'm guessing that that will not be your first choice in terms of cost. Anyway, I'm doing a lot of guessing here. Too much for my comfort level, but maybe it will help get you in the ballpark.

Damian

bergmanj · « **Reply #53 on:** March 15, 2012, 03:42:51 PM »

Stiider,

Just be aware: There are fairly large differences in considering copper vs aluminum wire; you will need to go up one to two sizes from copper to aluminum (for the same wire losses); but, the cost can be significantly less for the aluminum; so, the tradeoff favors aluminum wire over-all for cost/efficiency.

Regards, JLB

Striider · « **Reply #54 on:** March 16, 2012, 01:03:13 PM »

OK guys- getting closer to getting wire. A local up there offered me a 500 ft roll of 4 conductor THHN 12 gauge copper pump wire for free (I have to buy him some beers), which I think I am going to run in addition to 10/2 with ground. My thoughts are to splice an extra pair of 12 gauge wire on each side of the 10 gauge wire, and that will give me the equivalent of 2 gauge pairs going down there.

bergman - I was definitely leaning towards copper - I only want to do this once if possible.

Will this stuff from Lowes work? Southwire 250 Ft. 10-2 UF-B Wire.

Or should I get the Southwire 10-2 Pump Cable W/G 500' from the depot?

Also trying to figure out what gauge splice kit to get- since I will have a 10 gauge wire in each crimp connector, along with 2 12 gauge...

Yeah nothing is simple!!!

DanG · « **Reply #55 on:** March 16, 2012, 01:38:03 PM »

I'm not able to quickly track your wiring planning scanning this thread, sorry..

Quote

"splice an extra pair of 12 gauge wire on each side of the 10 gauge wire.. . . ..give me the equivalent of 2 gauge pairs going down"

Pairing two wires the same size drops the AWG by 3, so two 12's equal 9 along side a single 10 give one 7 (actually 6~something, the 10 is 89% the cross-section of the 9).

In a one-way circuit using both 10s in 10-2 as a single conductor yields one 7AWG, two parallel 10-2s would be 4AWG, four parallel 10-2s would be 1AWG.

Then you have to have the other leg, the return leg adding another four 10-2s bundled together.

Eight 10-2 cables x 450' is 3,600 feet of 10-2... a rather Manly sum!

bergmanj · « **Reply #56 on:** March 16, 2012, 01:50:37 PM »

Striider,

Aluminum will work just fine IF: You don't knick the insulation in any way; and, you use plenty of No-Ox, or equivalent anti-oxidant worked well into the stranded ends.

ai usually also cover these connections with silicone dielectric grease, and cover with self-vulcanizing rubber tape and shrink sleeve; with an additional protective layer of a good-quality vinyl electrical tape (Scotch 88 or equivalent).

Regards, JLB

damian · « **Reply #57 on:** March 16, 2012, 03:08:58 PM »

Oh boy, are we having fun now, or what? First of all, I double checked the figures I supplied and they are good. Striider, please remind me of your panel configuration. Bergmanj, the points you make about aluminum wire are true, but I will offer that, having made and also disassembled many many underwater splices, I would be very hesitant to attempt to run aluminum wires down to a submersible pump. Almost every underwater splice that I have ever disassembled shows signs of leakage. They can be done perfectly so as not to leak but it's not easy or a given. When these splices leak the conductors are usually corroded at least up to the static water level in the well. I would not trust that the aluminum would stay dry down there. Thank you DanG for the information on equivalent gauges for parallel conductors, if you run parallel conductors clear to the pump, as you say Striider, what does that splice look like? Very hard to seal that one. So, all that being what it is, if you take a look at your well report, static level is 200 feet, recommended pump depth 350 feet, and you are in a plastic sleeve (casing) below 41 feet, so how about you make whatever splice you are suggesting above the water level, leaving you about 170 feet of 10/2 with ground leading down to the pump. If you set that splice 250' from your power supply you can even use two of the 12/4 runs to it. Resistance in series is additive. That underwater splice is doable and the other can be soldered above the static level, tape the heck out of it and have some confidence that the plastic casing will not chafe through your tape. I would never do this kind of thing on a jobsite, but it's your thing. Also for down well, especially if you will splice a pump to it, I do not like UF at all. If you do use it, solder the solid #10s into the crimp sleeves. Solid wire does not crimp splice well and is hard to work with. This is all why I come back to panel configuration. IF you can supply 120 vdc it would seem so much easier.

Best,

Damian

bergmanj · « **Reply #58 on:** March 16, 2012, 03:42:01 PM »

damian,

I don't dispute your findings at all; in retrospect, my thought was more toward the buried wire, rather than the "in-well" wire.

In my view, copper is better all the way 'round, except for the cost-efficiency; given the choice, without cost consideration, I would personally go with copper every time.

Regards, JLB

damian · « **Reply #59 on:** March 16, 2012, 04:03:28 PM »

Hi Bergmanj,

Yes, you do not see many residential service entrances run in copper. Aluminum is a good way to go where you need to run a lot of amps at reasonable cost, and yes, lots of anti-oxidant on those Al splices is the key.

Best,

Damian

Striider · « **Reply #60 on:** March 16, 2012, 05:46:02 PM »

Man, you guys are awesome! My head kinda hurts after reading your replies, but I think I am following.

Damian - yes I was thinking about your option, and 3 points of underwater splice leakage sounds much better than cramming more wires into a connector. You also have a good point about upping the DC voltage by stringing more panels together. Currently I have 2 195 watt 27.1 volt panels. I am planning to expand the system at some point, so that will likely happen. Maybe I am just over thinking/engineering this whole darned thing.

Dan G - I didn't know about the pairing AWG drop - I was merely going by the diameter of the copper on the chart and adding them up. Thanks.

Begmanj - yeah the cost difference for aluminum doesn't overcome the potential reliability aspect for me, so I will be sticking with copper unless some heavy gauge aluminum wire falls in my lap.

My pump shipped today, so I am getting excited to actually see WATER come out of that expensive hole in the ground!

bergmanj · « **Reply #61 on:** March 19, 2012, 08:00:22 AM »

Striider,

Should you chose to use some aluminum wire, and splice it to copper, DO NOT directly splice it- you MUST use splicing materials specifically made to do this: Tin-plated copper splice lugs, specific crimp splice lugs, etc. Direct copper to aluminum WILL corrode the splice away in short order via electrolysis.

Regards, JLB

Striider · « **Reply #62 on:** March 22, 2012, 05:30:14 AM »

Got the 6sqf3 pump today. It is pretty and shiny!

I am now planning my attack for installation. I have pretty much decided on a single run of copper 10/2 with ground wire to it.

Strange thing I noticed, though. The female threads on the top of the pump are 1.5 inches across, but all the literature I can find says I am to use 1" NPT piping, and the head should be threaded this way already. Assuming I need to find a brass adapter to go from 1.5" threads to 1"?

I am also leaning heavily towards using the poly pipe, as my application (even with pressure tank) seems within specs for 200 psi pipe and do-it-myself (with friends) installation will be infinitely easier. Also, PVC pipe is about twice as expensive or more once you add in the SS couplings.

damian · « **Reply #63 on:** March 22, 2012, 11:20:14 PM »

Hi Striider,

Google a pipe size chart and think about how you will get that pump out if need be. Run a good safety rope down with it, better yet, get some ss aircraft cable and run that. I've tried to post some helpful information here, but things are getting way out of control on the work front here. It would be best if you could get someone who knows what they are doing to help you.

Best,

Damian

thirteen · « **Reply #64 on:** March 25, 2012, 11:04:25 AM »

Be sure and take a measurement of the distance the pump is down in the pipe and write it on the wall with the date installed. A drawing and what everything is made of would be a good thing to have for a reference 10 years from now when memories fade. I have the best memory there is but it is just real short. It will help years from now when something happens. A cable might be better than a rope and tie or tape it to the pipe as you lower it down. Seal the top so dirty water cannot go down the pipe polluting your water. They make a simple bushing to go from one pipe size to another but be sure you use a good grade of pipe thread sealer. Double check your pipe as it is lowered for gouges or cracks. You could also write on the pipe the distance that section of pipe is from the pump. just a few ideas to play with or toss.

ghurd · « **Reply #65 on:** March 26, 2012, 01:03:56 AM »

1" nominal is about 1-3/8" OD.
G-

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Author Topic: Dankoff Solar Force Piston Pump (Read 26810 times)