Author Topic: Problem with welder and Inverters  (Read 30635 times)

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kevbo

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Re: Problem with welder and Inverters
« Reply #33 on: January 30, 2012, 02:07:12 PM »
This is a classic transformer inrush problem.  Bit my azz once years ago when I was a young green EE.    Back in the old days they used magnetic cores for non-volatile memory in computers some of us greybeards still call RAM "core memory".   The same thing is happening here.  The iron transformer core remembers the direction it was last magnetized.  If you turn it on with the same polarity next time, it tries to double the magnetization (which is how Flux is looking at it).  The problem is that the core is already near or at saturation in that direction, so it quickly saturates hard.  When the core saturates, it stops acting like iron, and starts acting like air.  When that happens, the inductance of the primary winding drops to near zero.  That inductance is what was limiting the current, so the current spikes and shuts down your inverter, or trips your magnetic breakers, or all manner of other problems that will drive you nuts because the planets only line up to make it happen about 10% of the time.


One solution is to soft-start the transformer.  Put a resistor in series with it for a few cycles, then short the resistor with a contactor.    They make "hard start" relays for HVAC compressors that will do the timing and switching function for you.  Or use a triac/SCR "dimmer" circuit to ramp up the power slowly.  You can use a cheap lamp dimmer to pilot a couple of back-back SCRs, making a fairly cheap heavy duty dimmer.  Put a switch across it so your welder can get full power once you have ramped it up.

DanB

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Re: Problem with welder and Inverters
« Reply #34 on: January 30, 2012, 02:34:44 PM »
to me what kevbo and flux are saying makes the most sense.  I dont believe it's a battery problem, battery voltage is holding fine for me *and* I've run this welder turned up lots more than we normally do, it doesn't make a difference to turn up the welder.  Will find out when I get the chance to play with it and test some of these suggestions.
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ChrisOlson

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Re: Problem with welder and Inverters
« Reply #35 on: January 30, 2012, 05:06:01 PM »
One solution is to soft-start the transformer.

Those inverters already have soft-start built right in for almost dead short loads like that.  That is not the problem.

You might be able to band-aide it.  But here's where I'm coming from:
www.pv-systems.org

Ask for Jim.  Jim has been selling, installing and servicing Trace/Xantrex inverters since before Moby Dick was a minnow.
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DanB

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Re: Problem with welder and Inverters
« Reply #36 on: January 30, 2012, 07:58:24 PM »
dang Chris and I can never agree it seems.  Moby Dick was published in 1851 and if it was ever really true, moby dick was probably a minnow in the 1830's or so.  I don't think they had trace inverters then  ;D
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richhagen

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Re: Problem with welder and Inverters
« Reply #37 on: January 31, 2012, 09:06:19 AM »
I have an SW4048 with is in daily use, although I have not tried to start anything it would not start yet.  I also have an exeltech 1100 Watt inverter.  That inverter would kick out if I tried to start the washing machine with it, although I suspect it was caused by a voltage dip in the supply in that case.  I found that if I hooked a giant capacitor across its input, it would successfully start the washing machine.  I wonder if you were to provide something similar across the inputs of the 5548's if it would cause the DC voltage to dip less, and the amp demand on the DC end would be lessened, which might avoid the problem.  At any rate it would be easy to try if you have a couple of large capacitors of suitable voltage lying about.  Rich
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halfcrazy

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Re: Problem with welder and Inverters
« Reply #38 on: January 31, 2012, 12:18:20 PM »
I have noticed as Chris pointed out when my batteries are low my Mig Welder can cause issues with overload on one of my 2 outback inverters always the same inverter and only when my batteries are low. I am going to add a balancing transformer to mine and I think this will help with this issue time will tell. Guess I should not be welding with dead batteries   ::)

ChrisOlson

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Re: Problem with welder and Inverters
« Reply #39 on: January 31, 2012, 01:31:41 PM »
I don't know what Outback recommends for the FX240 transformer on stacked configurations.  But Xantrex recommends using stacked inverters with the T240 in stepdown mode so the load on the two inverters is always balanced.  When the inverters are ramped equally this minimizes problems with heavy surge loads.

When we have 1.5 kW or so of normal loads on and I strike an arc in the shop with the Lincoln 225 it doesn't even make the lights flicker or dim in the house with the welder set at 200 amps.  There's three big transformers in the SW's and the biggest one hums pretty good when they're running a heavy load like that.  But the cooling fans normally don't even start with an intermittent heavy load pulling 30-40 amps @ 240 volt.

Even so, if I'm going to do some welding I have to run in the utility room and check the load on the inverters.  If the water heater is running, that pulls 19 amps @ 240 volt and I have to either wait until the stat kicks the water heater out, or manually start the gen in Peak Load Management mode, before I do any welding.  If the inverters have to deliver more than 20 amps for two continuous minutes the gen automatically starts in Peak Load Management mode to help out, and that happens every time if the water heater is going and there's some other loads on at the same time.  If my wife has the electric range going I always manually start the gen in Peak Load Management because even though it cycles the elements on and off in 30 second cycles or so, it pulls 4.8 kW when both the top and bottom elements are going in the oven.  If she has just some surface units going, those are no big deal because each one only pulls about 1.2 kW intermittent as it cycles on and off.

But like I've been say here all along, and having quite a bit of experience with what those inverters are capable of, you can't run any of the above with a tired or inadequate battery bank.  I tried it.  It didn't work.  If you want to try to band-aide it, I don't care.  But there's only one right way to set up stacked inverter configurations - and that's with a balancing transformer to load them equally and having enough power to feed them.  My first venture into getting real inverters when my wife went ape over the power going out cost us $6,500 for equipment.  The second lesson in what it takes to run 'em cost us another $10,000.  But when your wife is stand there going, "I want, I want, I want because I'm tired of this and this and this" and she's pointing her finger right at you so you have no doubt about who she thinks is going to "fix" it, .......well.........you can't build a 800 hp big block, put a 2 barrel Rochester on it and expect to get 800 horse from it.
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halfcrazy

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Re: Problem with welder and Inverters
« Reply #40 on: January 31, 2012, 02:14:58 PM »
Chris
I completely agree those SW's where monsters and very capable. I would agree that simply adding the T240 on there outputs would help under almost all circumstances. The Outbacks are no where as heavy as the SW's but they are fairly capable. I intend to add my T240 on there outputs to balance things and see what happens. I am desperately trying to start my 5hp air compressor off the Outbacks and really do not want to add 1 or 2 more.

I also fully understand the "Making the other half Happy" thing I do that a lot and usually even more so after I lug home some new toy ;D

Ryan

ChrisOlson

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Re: Problem with welder and Inverters
« Reply #41 on: January 31, 2012, 02:49:15 PM »
I am desperately trying to start my 5hp air compressor off the Outbacks and really do not want to add 1 or 2 more.

Hint: 5-7.5 hp two-stage air compressors, when used off-grid, are what they make Honda GX240 engines for.  If you need it automatic you can buy an Atkinson gen controller and use the pressure switch to start and stop it.  My compressor has a 50 gallon tank, plus I got two old 100 lb LP cylinders plumbed into the line for more reserve air.  I put an unloader on the compressor with a stepper motor that closes and opens the throttle, activated with the pressure switch, and it's manual start.  So it idles it down when the tank gets up to 150 psi and ramps it back up when the pressure drops to 115 psi.

Sometimes I can do stuff around the shop for a week and never have to run it and have enough air.  If I'm painting or running an impact wrench constant, then I start it and leave it run.

I put that GX240 on my Ingersoll-Rand compressor almost 8 years ago, and I change oil in it when I change the compressor oil.  But otherwise I don't think I've ever even put a spark plug in it   :)
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halfcrazy

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Re: Problem with welder and Inverters
« Reply #42 on: January 31, 2012, 03:12:30 PM »
Chris
Mighty good idea now if I can find the time I may go that route now to find these items.

ChrisOlson

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Re: Problem with welder and Inverters
« Reply #43 on: January 31, 2012, 03:27:25 PM »
It's all standard stuff on gas engine air compressors.  Just find a place that services and sells air compressors and they'll either have it in stock or be able to order it.  The stepper motor on the throttle is about $100 and if your pressure switch has a little button that it pushes with an air line going to it, and it "hisses" when you press it, you already got an unloader built into it.  So just use the pressure switch contacts to drive the 12 volt stepper motor.

You don't have to use an air compressor throttle control - you could use just about any linear actuator to pull the throttle lever.

Or you can leave it run at full throttle too and just unload the compressor.  But it's a lot nicer if it idles down when the air gets built up.
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halfcrazy

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Re: Problem with welder and Inverters
« Reply #44 on: January 31, 2012, 03:33:03 PM »
Cool thanks Chris looks like I may have another project in hand  ;D

richhagen

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Re: Problem with welder and Inverters
« Reply #45 on: February 01, 2012, 12:38:25 AM »
One thing different about my 4048 which is may be why I've not had problems starting what motors and such I have is that I have it temporarily connected with about 800 Farads of Boost Caps (64V value of bank) connected to the bus bar from which it is fed.  The capacitors alone could supply a multiple of the current that the inverter could possibly handle in the short run, it is in reality limited by the wiring connecting them to about 8000 Watts if the bank was at least 50 volts or so before, and about 7200 Watts (at 50 Volts) via a 150 Amp breaker for longer time frames.  The capacitors though can only supply about 150 Watt hours between 56 volts and 44 volts when paralleled with a battery, although they can supply that energy in a really short time frame.  When hooked to just capacitors, without batteries, it will run from 64V down to 32V which would supply about 340 Watt Hours because of that larger voltage window which would not damage the capacitors.  You do have to equalize the voltages through resistance before connecting the battery bank to the same bus bar.  I suspect the max power output from the inverter at 32V is probably greatly reduced even though allowed in the inverter setup.  I would have a bit of concern about damaging the inverter at heavy loadings at that low of voltage level as Trace generally stated operating voltages from 44 to 64 volts if I recall correctly, although, that said, I have never had a problem with loads up to about 1500 Watts at lower voltages and have never ran anything more than that at those levels.  Although I have run pretty fully loaded, aside from starting motors on appliances such as laundy and fridges, the only bigger motor I have run would be my air compressor which also does not mind the inverter, even when switched to just the capacitors and no batteries, although the longer term power would be limited to the current solar production under those circumstances so if your were going to operate it in this configuration for long it would have to be sunny out.  My welder is only a 120V. repair welder, so it is not really comperable and I've never tried to run the 220V plasma cutter off of the inverter through a transformer.  I have never tested, nor do I intend to, its ultimate surge capabilities as I need the thing to last a long time before I have to pay for repair or replacement.  I think of the capacitors as more of a big DC buffer than an energy storage solution because they are limited to supplying an amount electrical energy for about one load of laundry using a gas heated water and a gas dryer in their storage at night if no batteries are connected.  For now they are more experimental toys, although I am curious as to how long they will last. 

At any rate, in Dan's case I think he has enough energy in the batteries to run the welder consistently, but he may not have the ability to deliver enough power to the inverters when they start.  Although I read what was posted, I don't fully understand why one of the inverters kicked with two stacked and did not with one run through a transformer unless the transformer on the output of the single inverter reduced the peak loading at start up because of its inductance.  As was pointed out, the more the DC voltage drops the more DC amps are required to maintain the power output, I think the example was 400 Amps at 35VDC for a 14KW surge, and capacitance across the DC inputs should reduce that short term voltage drop, thereby reducing the amps required for the surge.  If the voltage held to 40V minimum, 14Kw would then only require 350 Amps on the DC side.  For an instant at startup the inverter wouldn't act differently whether the power came from a capacitor or a larger battery bank, and the amplitude of the dip would be reduced in either case. 

Just an idea, relatively easy to experiment with, and not likely to do any harm if it does not help, but probably only a few thousand additional microfarads of capacitance would be required as 2.5 Joules delivered in the first millisecond would reduce the peak loading required to deliver the equivelant power on the DC side by about 50 Amps or so.  6000 microfarads properly wired up across each inverter could do this with a starting range of 50V and an ending low point of over 40V after delivering that power for a millisecond.  A 1000 microfarad 100V capacitor is a $1.59 U.S. item at Jameco, and is frequently found iin old power supplies and such.  I have a few single electrolytic capacitors of suitable voltage range of larger capacity in with my electonic parts I've collected over the years, one was from a DC forklift.  Six of the 1000 microfarad ones, paralleled though sizable enough conductors, if a single larger unit was not at hand would likely be relatively easy to rig and check.  One would have to build a suitable structure to get the amps from each of the capacitors or capacitor banks to the terminals of each inverter though for that instantaneous surge.  I am not sure if the current overload Dan's unit is showing is on the DC or AC side of the inverter though, and if on the AC side this should have no impact.  At any rate, just an idea.

I agree with Chris that preferable in the long rung would be the load balancing transformer, as well as a bank and wiring capable of delivering the power that can be demanded by the inverter, but a lot of folks don't actually have the resources to do it right to start and a band aid is the only immediate option to making it work.  In spite of not having the resources many still have the wife looking at them when the lights go out or stuff does not work, with that outstreched finger pointing in their direction, and are hence under a lot of pressure to get the thing working as well as they can with options available to them.  Chris's wife is apparently lucky, as he had both the know how and the resources to get it done, others use bandaids, or suffer the ongoing wrath of their significant other.
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ChrisOlson

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Re: Problem with welder and Inverters
« Reply #46 on: February 01, 2012, 10:17:33 AM »
Chris's wife is apparently lucky, as he had both the know how and the resources to get it done, others use bandaids, or suffer the ongoing wrath of their significant other.

Hah!  I'm the lucky one because my wife merely put up with it.  It has little to do with know-how and everything to do with having the money to do it.  I had bigger inverters before than I got now.  At least that's what it said on the box.  But they had Chinese kilowatts in 'em, and those are different than regular kilowatts.  With Chinese kilowatts you don't need near the battery power, you can easily carry both inverters under one arm, and you have to run the generator if you want anything more than the basics.

Our daughter went to college to be a doctor.  That cost us I don't even know how much.  When she graduated from med school I got read the riot act on how the next 8 years are going to be different than the previous 8.  When I headed out in the truck that day to "fix" what my wife wanted, I didn't have a clue even though I thought I did, but fortunately I went to an expert that did.  I was going to get twin Outback's.  The guy I got my inverters from just said, "Nope - won't work - you need these."   He opened the box so I could see.  I was going to spin the box around to get a better look and it wouldn't move.  I looked under the pallet to see if the pallet was bolted to the floor or something.

I found out all it takes is money to trade Chinese kilowatts for real ones.  And it takes three men to get one of those real ones into place and bolt it to the wall    ;D
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rossw

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Re: Problem with welder and Inverters
« Reply #47 on: February 01, 2012, 11:46:56 PM »
I found out all it takes is money to trade Chinese kilowatts for real ones.  And it takes three men to get one of those real ones into place and bolt it to the wall    ;D

Some of us just started with real ones. Saves the pain and suffering of changeover. (Actually, just swaps one lot of pain and suffering for a different (financial) type).

Me, and one of my equally stubborn mates were able to lift my inverter onto the wall and hold it in position long enough for my wife to tighten up the dynabolts I'd put in to hold it in place. Nearly killed us though... but no room for a 3rd person....

richhagen

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Re: Problem with welder and Inverters
« Reply #48 on: February 06, 2012, 04:07:37 AM »
I managed to get the 4048 up by myself, but it is a bit lighter I think.  I drilled and put the studs into the masonry and then managed to heft it onto the bolt studs without breaking my back.  I think I got one lined up and tilted it into place until the others lined up.  Definitely should be a two man job though.  That inverter is like a tank compared to anything I had before it.
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DanB

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Problem solved
« Reply #49 on: April 03, 2012, 01:36:03 PM »
Just a followup on this.
This problem with my welder shutting down my inverters when we pull the trigger (even before there's an arc)....
Nothing to do with the battery being too small.  Actually, even in the evening w/no power coming in I can be at 51V and when welding we drop to about 49.5.

I tried putting a constant load (100 Watt light bulb) on the slave inverter - it seemed to help but didn't solve the problem.

Yesterday I made up a new extension cord for the welder. about 30' long out of AWG 6 wire (because we're building some large solar racks and I needed that).  That very little bit of resistance in the line has completely solved the issue.  Surprised me anyhow....
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rain1224

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Re: Problem with welder and Inverters
« Reply #50 on: April 04, 2012, 09:03:26 PM »
Has the problem been solved yet?

Watt

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Re: Problem with welder and Inverters
« Reply #51 on: April 04, 2012, 11:17:11 PM »
Has the problem been solved yet?

Looks like it has.  Just the post before yours if you missed it. 

ChrisOlson

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Re: Problem solved
« Reply #52 on: April 05, 2012, 09:40:35 AM »
Yesterday I made up a new extension cord for the welder. about 30' long out of AWG 6 wire (because we're building some large solar racks and I needed that).  That very little bit of resistance in the line has completely solved the issue.  Surprised me anyhow....

That's weird.  I got a ~10 foot long 1/0 copper feeder from the Mains in the AC Conduit Boxes on the inverters to the main panel.  Then a 1/0 underground AL feeder from my main panel in the utility room to the shop sub panel (~75 feet), plus (usually) a 50 foot #6 extension cord running from the welder plug in the shop to the welder.  So maybe that's why mine works so well?

My 6 kW standby generator won't run the welder standalone by itself.  But the inverters have no problem with it.
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Flux

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Re: Problem with welder and Inverters
« Reply #53 on: April 05, 2012, 12:41:49 PM »
During the starting transient, if the core saturates you only have the winding and circuit resistance limiting the first half cycle current. The transformer winding alone is probably not enough to keep things within the inverter capability and the extra bit of added wiring resistance is enough to solve the problem.

Obviously the inverter has a lot more surge capability than I expected. I guessed it was flux doubling but I doubted whether you could get away with so little added resistance, that is why I thought you would have to use more than was desirable for welding and short it out after a few cycles. This seems like the ideal solution, the simple tricks are always the best ones.

Flux

ChrisOlson

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Re: Problem with welder and Inverters
« Reply #54 on: April 05, 2012, 02:14:20 PM »
Obviously the inverter has a lot more surge capability than I expected.

The main breaker on mine (basically the same inverters) is 60 amps.  I don't know if DanB has the Xantrex AC Conduit Boxes on his, but that's the standard main breaker for those inverters.

It takes about 120 amps on surge to trip the main breakers, which is ~29 kW.  And that still won't cause the inverters to shut down - they will trip the main breakers before they shut down from an overload error.  The only time I ever had them shut down with an overload error is before I replaced my battery bank, because those inverters will deliver 180 amps short circuited (43 kW) before they go into overload**.

DanB's new cord may have "fixed" the problem.  But I maintain that the real problem is that he can't get enough amps to those inverters, and maintain the voltage, for full surge power.  The way I have my bank set up with the parallel feeds to the bus, it can deliver over 1,000 amps on surge and maintain the voltage above low cutout.  Each one of my batteries can deliver 1,310 amps @ 9.5 volts from a fully charged state.  And I have 12 pairs of those feeding the bus (fused at 1,200 amps).

DanB's system is 48 volts, but those two volt cells won't deliver the required amps to two inverters and maintain the voltage above low cutout.  And that's why, instead of tripping the breaker, it cascades the inverters and shuts them down.  You need parallel feeds from more than one battery string for stacked inverters.

No matter how you "patch it", it takes a serious battery bank to run those big Xantrex inverters at full power.  If what you got "does the job" then it's probably adequate.  But I've always been a stickler for, "if it's there I want it on tap".

**Edit:
Here's an example for other folks that might run into this:

Say your surge draw for just a half second is at the full rating of the inverter's 10 second surge capacity (120 amps @ 240 volts, or 28.8 kW).  The inverter can do this, but only at an input voltage down to 22 volts (24 volt system).  So the battery bank has to surge around 1,400 amps for 10 seconds (24 volt) to meet the full rated surge capacity of the inverters.

If the DC input voltage drops below 22, now the inverter's output voltage drops.  But the surge load watts is the same, so the amp requirement increases accordingly due the inverter's output voltage drop.  The inverter can't make power out of thin air on surge.  So if the DC input voltage drops under heavy load, the inverter can only compensate down to 22 VDC.  When it's output voltage drops (160 VAC) to where the amp requirement exceeds the 180 it can do, it "sees" overload and thinks it's got a short circuit.

BTDT, had this problem with an inadequate battery bank.  Once you put a decent battery bank on the job, you can go out to the shop, plug in a welder cord, and dead short the two hot legs together and it will blow the 60 amp main before it will overload the inverters.
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« Last Edit: April 05, 2012, 04:24:19 PM by ChrisOlson »

joestue

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Re: Problem with welder and Inverters
« Reply #55 on: April 05, 2012, 05:26:58 PM »
It takes about 120 amps on surge to trip the main breakers, which is ~29 kW.  And that still won't cause the inverters to shut down - they will trip the main breakers before they shut down from an overload error.  The only time I ever had them shut down with an overload error is before I replaced my battery bank, because those inverters will deliver 180 amps short circuited (43 kW) before they go into overload**.
did you measure this or read it somewhere?
unless those circuit breakers are magnetic circuit breakers, it typically takes about 10 times nominal current rating to trip on the first cycle.
1 minute to trip pulling double the nominal amps is normal for thermal breakers.
Quote
DanB's new cord may have "fixed" the problem. 
I am quite surprised it fixed it as well. 60 feet of 6 awg is only 25 milliohms.
Quote
But I maintain that the real problem is that he can't get enough amps to those inverters, and maintain the voltage, for full surge power.

read my post earlier about how much power is required.


@Flux here's something i thought of earlier.

The transformer falls out of saturation because the real resistance of the primary coil and the real resistance of the supply is non zero. if it were not the transformer would take a few minutes to reset, and would do so only through the hysteresis of the iron itself.

However: what if the inverter always delivers equal volt seconds , to avoid causing other magnetics to saturate when turning on transformer loads?

The way i figure it, if the inverter's output voltage collapses (which it will, because it CANNOT deliver 300-400 amps at 240vac peak which is ~300vdc) then the transformer's flux should reset within the first cycle, should it not? (assuming, after 8 milliseconds the inverter develops a full -240vac peak voltage)
If however the inverter does not develop full voltage immediately then the core will then saturate on the next cycle, again.
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ChrisOlson

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Re: Problem with welder and Inverters
« Reply #56 on: April 05, 2012, 06:58:42 PM »
did you measure this or read it somewhere?
unless those circuit breakers are magnetic circuit breakers, it typically takes about 10 times nominal current rating to trip on the first cycle.
1 minute to trip pulling double the nominal amps is normal for thermal breakers.

Those 60 amp SquareD breakers in the Xantrex AC Conduit Box won't hold 120 amps for a minute.  We've tripped those before.  They'll maybe handle 120 amps for a couple seconds or so before they trip.  The one time when I was using the welder to thaw out our water pipes those breakers tripped after only about 20 seconds.  I reset them and they tripped again.  So I went and got my Fluke meter and put it on the line to service panel.  IIRC, it showed 66 amps @ 242 volts.  So I know the inverters will put that amount of power out, and the breakers won't take it.  We had to turn off the extra stuff in the house so the breakers would hold, plus the start the generator to get the inverter load down to 25-30 amps continuous, using both the inverters and the gen to power the welder.

The thing is, the Xantrex SW's got soft start built into them for things like welder transformers or big electric motors.  It makes zero sense that an extension cord on the welder would make one iota of difference.
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Watt

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Re: Problem with welder and Inverters
« Reply #57 on: April 05, 2012, 08:21:41 PM »
did you measure this or read it somewhere?
unless those circuit breakers are magnetic circuit breakers, it typically takes about 10 times nominal current rating to trip on the first cycle.
1 minute to trip pulling double the nominal amps is normal for thermal breakers.

Those 60 amp SquareD breakers in the Xantrex AC Conduit Box won't hold 120 amps for a minute.  We've tripped those before.  They'll maybe handle 120 amps for a couple seconds or so before they trip.  The one time when I was using the welder to thaw out our water pipes those breakers tripped after only about 20 seconds.  I reset them and they tripped again.  So I went and got my Fluke meter and put it on the line to service panel.  IIRC, it showed 66 amps @ 242 volts.  So I know the inverters will put that amount of power out, and the breakers won't take it.  We had to turn off the extra stuff in the house so the breakers would hold, plus the start the generator to get the inverter load down to 25-30 amps continuous, using both the inverters and the gen to power the welder.

The thing is, the Xantrex SW's got soft start built into them for things like welder transformers or big electric motors.  It makes zero sense that an extension cord on the welder would make one iota of difference.
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Chris

Hey Chris.

Put that fluke meter on amperage inrush and flip on that ac welder, no cord, then add the cord and flip the switch.  See if the inrush current is the same or different.  Also, monitor the voltage at the welder for voltage drop with the cord if you have min/max available to you. 
« Last Edit: April 05, 2012, 08:23:53 PM by Watt »

ChrisOlson

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Re: Problem with welder and Inverters
« Reply #58 on: April 05, 2012, 10:05:15 PM »
Put that fluke meter on amperage inrush and flip on that ac welder, no cord, then add the cord and flip the switch.  See if the inrush current is the same or different.  Also, monitor the voltage at the welder for voltage drop with the cord if you have min/max available to you.

My Fluke has a red button that shows min/max for any of the dial settings.  But I've never done that before with a welder.  It just makes the inverters make a soft "thud" noise and loud buzz when you flip it on, and then they go back to their normal buzz.

Like I said in a previous post I got a lot of wire in between my inverters and where the welder is, so maybe that makes all the difference.  But I can't see why it would.  I can weld with the Lincoln 225 at full amps if I lay short beads where the arc is only going for a few seconds at a time.  At 150 amps I can weld with it constantly and it won't trip any breakers or cause the generator to start.

DanB's situation is really weird.  But he has his units set up totally different than mine.  I got a balancing transformer and both of my inverters are online at all times because we got 240 volt loads going on and off all day.  DanB only uses his second inverter for welding and he don't have no balancing transformer.  And I don't know if he uses a generator for peak load or not, so the generator starts and takes over when those big continuous high-amp loads are on.

So it's probably apples and oranges because I've never tried welding with the setup he's got.
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Chris

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Re: Problem with welder and Inverters
« Reply #59 on: April 05, 2012, 10:12:25 PM »
Put that fluke meter on amperage inrush and flip on that ac welder, no cord, then add the cord and flip the switch.  See if the inrush current is the same or different.  Also, monitor the voltage at the welder for voltage drop with the cord if you have min/max available to you.

My Fluke has a red button that shows min/max for any of the dial settings.  But I've never done that before with a welder.  It just makes the inverters make a soft "thud" noise and loud buzz when you flip it on, and then they go back to their normal buzz.

Like I said in a previous post I got a lot of wire in between my inverters and where the welder is, so maybe that makes all the difference.  But I can't see why it would.  I can weld with the Lincoln 225 at full amps if I lay short beads where the arc is only going for a few seconds at a time.  At 150 amps I can weld with it constantly and it won't trip any breakers or cause the generator to start.

DanB's situation is really weird.  But he has his units set up totally different than mine.  I got a balancing transformer and both of my inverters are online at all times because we got 240 volt loads going on and off all day.  DanB only uses his second inverter for welding and he don't have no balancing transformer.  And I don't know if he uses a generator for peak load or not, so the generator starts and takes over when those big continuous high-amp loads are on.

So it's probably apples and oranges because I've never tried welding with the setup he's got.
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Chris

Chris, that 150 amps on the ac welder may only be 4kw if you are welding with around 26 volts.  That is not taking any losses out of the system.   At 250amps welding current, you may well be talking about 30 volts or 7.5kw.  As you know, at mains, that may be some percentage more.  That loud " thud " and buzz is the inrush current.  If you have a frequency setting on your fluke, you may do min/max on the output of your inverter while flipping on the welder. 

Just a thought.

ChrisOlson

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Re: Problem with welder and Inverters
« Reply #60 on: April 05, 2012, 10:40:02 PM »
If you have a frequency setting on your fluke, you may do min/max on the output of your inverter while flipping on the welder. 

I was welding on a turbine tonight, and right now I'm eating a late supper.  After supper I'll go out and try that just for the heck of it.

Edit:
The inverters were running at 12.4 amps load when I checked it.  When I flip on the breaker in the main panel that feeds the shop (with the welder turned on) the peak amp draw on the inverters is 63.5 amps.  Running amps at the inverters is 15.6 with the welder idling, so the welder must draw a little over 3 amps just powering the transformer and cooling fan.  Voltage at the main is 241.2 volts, freq is 60.0 Hz.

So there you have it.
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Chris
« Last Edit: April 05, 2012, 11:01:12 PM by ChrisOlson »

Watt

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Re: Problem with welder and Inverters
« Reply #61 on: April 05, 2012, 10:58:51 PM »
If you have a frequency setting on your fluke, you may do min/max on the output of your inverter while flipping on the welder. 

I was welding on a turbine tonight, and right now I'm eating a late supper.  After supper I'll go out and try that just for the heck of it.
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Chris

It will be interesting to see what your setup proves.  You will still have to do the short cord test also.  But, with the long cord, I suspect the output voltage will be higher out of the inverter than the short cord. 

Thanks for the test. 

How was supper?  Did your wife do as mine and set supper on the table hot?  When I finally get to it, it's cold.  She says well, you know what time I cook.   ;D

*edit:  Thinking about the test further, it may take a scope to see the waveform.  I can't decide if a frequency meter will show anything! :o
« Last Edit: April 05, 2012, 11:02:36 PM by Watt »

ChrisOlson

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Re: Problem with welder and Inverters
« Reply #62 on: April 05, 2012, 11:03:51 PM »
You will still have to do the short cord test also.  But, with the long cord, I suspect the output voltage will be higher out of the inverter than the short cord. 

I don't have enough time to do a cord test.  I got over 100 feet of wire between my inverters and the welder, and most of it is buried underground between two buildings.  So that cord test might not prove anything anyway.  Have DanB do that.  He's the one with the short cord    :)

I edited my above post after I checked it.
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Chris

Watt

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Re: Problem with welder and Inverters
« Reply #63 on: April 05, 2012, 11:08:44 PM »
You will still have to do the short cord test also.  But, with the long cord, I suspect the output voltage will be higher out of the inverter than the short cord. 

I don't have enough time to do a cord test.  I got over 100 feet of wire between my inverters and the welder, and most of it is buried underground between two buildings.  So that cord test might not prove anything anyway.  Have DanB do that.  He's the one with the short cord    :)

I edited my above post after I checked it.
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Chris

A voltage test would tell you if the long cord is helping.  If the voltage stays relatively high at the inverter and lower at the welder then..... 

DanB may not have the Fluke with the min/max function.   ;)

Edit* I see your edit but I must have been confused.  Didn't you mention your inverter made a " thud " or buzz noise when the welder was turned on?  I was thinking that long cord would keep your voltage ( transformer load ) from going low.  I must be confusing myself again. 

Thinking back to the earlier part of the thread, it is my understanding that the fault would occur when the welder was turned on.  But not all the time, or every time that is.  With your test, that indicates idle amps, I was referring to inrush amperage.  Or, is that ~50 amps surge on the output of the inverter?
« Last Edit: April 05, 2012, 11:21:53 PM by Watt »

ChrisOlson

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Re: Problem with welder and Inverters
« Reply #64 on: April 06, 2012, 12:30:38 AM »
I pulled the cover on the main and put the fluke on one line feeding the main from the inverters.  I went out to the shop and tuned the welder on then came back in the utility room and shut off the breaker that feeds the shop.  Then I tuned the breaker back on to see what the Fluke said.

The house was drawing over 12 amps before I even turned the shop breaker on.  When I turned on the breaker the inverter did its "thud" thing and it took 63 point whatever it was amps.  But it was really short time and then it went back to 15 point something amps.  So it looked to me like the welder was pulling over 3 amps just to run the thing without doing any welding.

That was inverter output amps to the main that feeds everything here.  So it looks to me like the welder does draw quite a bit of power when you first turn it on.  But it's not no 300 amps.  Maybe about 50, and only for a fraction of a second.
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Chris

Watt

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Re: Problem with welder and Inverters
« Reply #65 on: April 06, 2012, 01:25:26 AM »
I pulled the cover on the main and put the fluke on one line feeding the main from the inverters.  I went out to the shop and tuned the welder on then came back in the utility room and shut off the breaker that feeds the shop.  Then I tuned the breaker back on to see what the Fluke said.

The house was drawing over 12 amps before I even turned the shop breaker on.  When I turned on the breaker the inverter did its "thud" thing and it took 63 point whatever it was amps.  But it was really short time and then it went back to 15 point something amps.  So it looked to me like the welder was pulling over 3 amps just to run the thing without doing any welding.

That was inverter output amps to the main that feeds everything here.  So it looks to me like the welder does draw quite a bit of power when you first turn it on.  But it's not no 300 amps.  Maybe about 50, and only for a fraction of a second.
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Chris

Thanks Chris, your help says and means a lot.  I know this is a crazy question but do you happen to have a link or maybe specs to the transformers within that inverter or those inverters?  I ask this because we could calculate or ' read ' the Z rating(s) of that or those transformers. 

That 50 amps on the inverter output could very well be 250 amps at 48vdc on the input ( even leaving out losses ).  I think 48v is Dan's dc input to his inverters?  Anyway, a loose connection, your suggestions as well as most everyone's suggestions are viable.  But, in the end, that length of cable appears to have impeded even further current draw. 

« Last Edit: April 06, 2012, 01:32:52 AM by Watt »