Author Topic: Research Project - Experts Please Reply  (Read 13466 times)

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ChrisOlson

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Re: Research Project - Experts Please Reply
« Reply #33 on: January 10, 2012, 10:40:14 PM »
I am to design a prototype here in the states to be dragged to the research camps and tried out. My design involves using heating loads to keep the turbine in a general operating range while also making some power. The units need to be mobile, so small blades and with no high tower.

Hey Professor,
Check this out:
http://www.eos.unh.edu/images/newsl_0309/observ_lg.jpg

More story on it here:
http://www.eos.unh.edu/newsl_0309/observ.shtml

I wonder what the deal is with that one that's got the ratchet strap looped over the tail?

Here's some more - they get Proven turbines at this one:
http://www.antarcticstation.org/station/
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Chris
« Last Edit: January 10, 2012, 10:51:23 PM by ChrisOlson »

Perry1

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Re: Research Project - Experts Please Reply
« Reply #34 on: January 11, 2012, 02:36:51 AM »
They do test wind power systems at Amundsen-Scott South Pole Station.  This is an interesting read if you like that sort of thing:
http://www.southpolestation.com/trivia/90s/turbine.html

Chris


Thanks for posting that Chris. It brings back some stories from some of the oldtimers around the shop. I like how it says the turbine was decommissioned and sent back to NPS. It now sits at ground level next to the picnic tables beside our building. Never to spin again, but a piece of history.

Perry

SparWeb

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Re: Research Project - Experts Please Reply
« Reply #35 on: January 11, 2012, 03:09:41 AM »
Hi countryboy,
Sorry that this still isn't resolving into reality for you. 
I think, after your last post, I better see your position, and appreciate the extra background. 

Hopefully you aren't on your own.  The task should be divvied up among a team so that you can focus on your specialty. 

Antarctic/Arctic:  No battery will last, no sun 1/2 the year!, and the cost of diesel fuel AFTER it's been transported by AIR CARRIER to your station is roughly 100$ per gallon.  The viscosity of oil at -70C is halfway between lead and butter.  People at the base have better things to do than wrastle with a gyroscope in the wind.

Yes, typically volts rise with RPM, linearly.
You can select a TSR that is low to keep the RPM down.

You can select or build a generator to function at any RPM.   ANY RPM.  The only factor is cost and complexity.  I once converted a 1800 RPM 7.5HP motor so that it can produce >3kW below 1000 RPM.  If I'd been more ambitious with the conversion I could have done better.  The more slowly you want it to function, the more difficult it becomes.

Limits to generators can be reached in different ways.  #1 is heat.  Too much current produces damaging heat and failure is imminent.  #2 is reactance, which is most pronounced in iron-cored generators and nearly absent in axial-flux core-less generators as promoted by otherpower.

You can test anything before final assembly of the generator.  The instructions can be found in many places with searching.

Perfect wind energy capture will reduce the wind speed downstream to 1/3 of the upstream wind speed.  At the plane of the rotor itself the wind speed is 2/3 of the upstream speed.  It's basically the reverse of an aircraft propellor slipstream.

Too many questions, widely varying, to answer in great detail each.  I've already pointed you to the specialists where you will learn the most about aerodynamics, testing, what works and what doesn't.  Though I forgot to mention Paul Gipe's book, so let me put in a plug for it now.  Some antarctic examples in there (Proven, SWWP at McMurdo etc.)


With any luck, these answers will steer the discussion onto a course that will ultimately help you.  Personally I think that if you've never built a WT before, and you want to start from scratch, and do it all by yourself, then your first try likely won't survive your backyard, let alone the north pole.  Voice of experience.  I've got a few smashed WT's under my belt too.



Now for the details,

I do not know the electrical side of the turbine. I was told to just test out the power generation so the volts do not matter during the test. However, this is a very vague grant and I have a couple of rounds of questioning that I can ask them before starting. The voltage will need to vary with equipment since batteries are shot in the cold. I imagine they will just make the power with the turbine and use an electrical panel to break off the power requirements of their devices. Now to get away from the story.

My questions I have so far are:

I understand many people rate these generators on a volt/rpm basis. Is this a linear line that does not stop with max rpm or does it max out at a certain rpm?
If so how do I determine this max?

The lower TSR idea seems like a winner. If the blades spin slower, even in 60 mph wind, will this decrease power output? The speed of the turbine will help from the cold weather (freezing) so I do not want to slow it down too much.

Is there a way to test a coil before placing all of the coils in the stator to get a general idea of power at a certain rpm?


Basically I am in need of how to build a generator for my needs so any resources of higher rpm axial flux generators would be appreciated.

Also does anyone know of how slow the wind is after it leaves the turbine? Another idea was to place these turbines into the wind to help slow down the incoming wind to the research camps. This would just be an unexpected benefit.
No one believes the theory except the one who developed it. Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.
System spec: 135w BP multicrystalline panels, Xantrex C40, DIY 10ft (3m) diameter wind turbine, Tri-Star TS60, 800AH x 24V AGM Battery, Xantrex SW4024
www.sparweb.ca

countryboyPHD

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Re: Research Project - Experts Please Reply
« Reply #36 on: January 11, 2012, 12:36:20 PM »
Thanks everyone for most of the input,

Sounds like I need to do A LOT more research, maybe dig into this grant a little more with the company and see if they can just provide me with an already built turbine and do my side of the research from there. Sorry this has been so hard for some of you to consider but I do appreciate those who provided value to the conversation. I think I may try to build an axial flux generator as a side project over a long break so I can learn more about it.

Flux

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Re: Research Project - Experts Please Reply
« Reply #37 on: January 11, 2012, 01:14:21 PM »
If you want a commercial axial flux machine then I think the little Marlec machine is about the only one you will find. It won.t stand your sort of wind speed without operating it's overload facilities but if you run a 24v version at 48v it may do it for some time before overheating.

Most of the other small machines are not axial flux alternators unless the Samrey is still in production.

I appreciate some of your problems, coming to wind with no experience is not easy. A few years experience is worth a lifetime of education, Universities are still inventing the wheel and people get PhDs for work that I was playing with as a kid but with no theoretical background. The basic axial flux alternator design goes back to Ferranti, Mordey and Siemens 150 years ago and it was reintroduced for wind as it has certain advantages. It will not make a lot of inroad in other fields so the mainstream electrical people are now reinventing it. They should have looked at John Fawkes' work 30 years ago.

Flux

ChrisOlson

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Re: Research Project - Experts Please Reply
« Reply #38 on: January 11, 2012, 01:44:46 PM »
Gordon Proven used a form of axial with his toroid setup.  His early machines used a geared induction generator.  But over time, the machines from Proven engineering became known as the toughest wind turbines on earth.

Of course, Gordon passed away last year and this legendary wind turbine line has been taken over by a different company now.  But for a commercial design I would take a good look at what Gordon Proven accomplished with his machines.
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Chris

keithturtle

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Re: Research Project - Experts Please Reply
« Reply #39 on: January 12, 2012, 03:33:42 AM »
I think I may try to build an axial flux generator as a side project over a long break so I can learn more about it.


That book by Hugh is your best asset if you plan to build, IMHO.   I used a heavier minivan (Chevy Venture) sealed bearing and had the rotors lasercut to make the job go quicker.

You'll learn a lot by doing it yourself, or by working closely with someone who already has.

Turtle, slow
soli deo gloria

finnsawyer

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Re: Research Project - Experts Please Reply
« Reply #40 on: January 17, 2012, 09:07:58 PM »
Okay SparWeb, lets see if I got this right.  2\3 of the incident air mass enters the rotor with the other 1\3 deflected.  Fair enough, but 1\3 of the incident air mass leaves the rotor.  Since that is half of the air mass that enters the rotor that means 1\3 goes away somewhere.  There is only one thing to say:  Ha ha, ho ho, he he!  In the real world mass accounts must balance.  That one third must show up somewhere.  In a real wind mill we could say that part of the air is lost radially, but then we must conclude that such a mill would not be the most efficient that could be built since that radial outflow could easily be prevented.  Then, so much for the Betz Limit. ???

SparWeb

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Re: Research Project - Experts Please Reply
« Reply #41 on: January 18, 2012, 02:18:18 AM »
A few diagrams to illustrate:




Picture the air flowing as a tube that is affected by the turbine.  Outside the airflow is somewhat disturbed but for simplicity's sake it's ignored and close enough.  Yes the mass flow is conserved, that's because the air velocity is reduced (less kinetic energy) and balanced by an expansion of the tube, hence more volume through which the flow passes.  Mass conserved.



When doing more detailed math, you can adjust the Cp and find the pressure ratio and velocity ratio.  They're all related.  It's somewhat obvious that if you are extracting no power, then you have CP=0, and likewise the air velocity is also unaffected.  The far right end of the curve.  Moving toward the middle, Cp is increasing, and the ratio of air velocity output to velocity input is decreasing, up to the maximum point: Cp=59.3%.

I also want to draw your attention to the fact that the line can continue to V/v ratios less than 0.333!  But you don't get an increase in Cp after that.  Not a lot of hobbyists are going to care about that.  Just getting to V/v = 1/2 is a challenge enough.

If you wanted to study the topic in more detail, Wikipedia has an excellent page on it....  Just not today - Wiki has blacked itself out as a protest.

Hope that helps anyway.


Okay SparWeb, lets see if I got this right.  2\3 of the incident air mass enters the rotor with the other 1\3 deflected.  Fair enough, but 1\3 of the incident air mass leaves the rotor.  Since that is half of the air mass that enters the rotor that means 1\3 goes away somewhere.  There is only one thing to say:  Ha ha, ho ho, he he!  In the real world mass accounts must balance.  That one third must show up somewhere.  In a real wind mill we could say that part of the air is lost radially, but then we must conclude that such a mill would not be the most efficient that could be built since that radial outflow could easily be prevented.  Then, so much for the Betz Limit. ???




-edit JW- fixed picture -edit2- picture was duplicate, undid-
« Last Edit: January 18, 2012, 08:53:53 AM by JW »
No one believes the theory except the one who developed it. Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.
System spec: 135w BP multicrystalline panels, Xantrex C40, DIY 10ft (3m) diameter wind turbine, Tri-Star TS60, 800AH x 24V AGM Battery, Xantrex SW4024
www.sparweb.ca

finnsawyer

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Re: Research Project - Experts Please Reply
« Reply #42 on: January 18, 2012, 09:53:30 PM »
Those diagrams are crap.  They don't deal with the actual physics at all.  You seem to contradict yourself.  1/3 of the air flow is deflected, but the air flowing past is not disturbed, a dubious prospect.  Also, only 1\3 of the airflow exits the rotor while 2/3 enters it, but the expansion of the air tube occurs after the rotor.   You still lost 1\3 of the air flow.  Oh well, same old same old. ::)

jimovonz

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Re: Research Project - Experts Please Reply
« Reply #43 on: January 24, 2012, 10:21:01 PM »
Those diagrams are crap.  They don't deal with the actual physics at all.  You seem to contradict yourself.  1/3 of the air flow is deflected, but the air flowing past is not disturbed, a dubious prospect.  Also, only 1\3 of the airflow exits the rotor while 2/3 enters it, but the expansion of the air tube occurs after the rotor.   You still lost 1\3 of the air flow.  Oh well, same old same old. ::)

Hi Finsawyer,
I do not see anywhere that Sparweb suggested that only 1/3 of the air flow exits the rotor? Obviously there is no 'wormhole' or any such object formed at the rotor to whisk away a portion of the air to who knows where for as long as the wind may blow - all the air that enters the rotor, exits the rotor. This seems to be clear enough in the diagram Sparweb posted. In an optimal situation all of the air passing through the rotor is slowed down to 1/3 of is unimpeded velocity (what most would call wind speed). To accommodate this without increasing in density, it must spread out radially. This is what the diagram shows and mass is most definitely conserved. If you take a reference cylinder the same diameter as the turbine, passing through the tips of the blades and project it axially into the wind to a point where the air is no longer affected by the turbine, you will see that 1/3 of the air entering this cylinder does not pass through the turbine at all but rather is deflected around it. The path this air takes is not shown in the diagram. The turbine extracts energy by reducing the velocity of the air passing through it. The more it tries to slow down the air, the more air that will pass around the turbine. Betz does not care how we extract the energy - he just figured out that you maximise the amount of energy available to be extracted when you slow the air down to 1/3 of its initial velocity, and that this represents 59.3% of the energy contained in the moving air in the reference cylinder I mentioned.

In this diagram very similar to Sparwebs, V1xA1=V2xA2


finnsawyer

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Re: Research Project - Experts Please Reply
« Reply #44 on: February 01, 2012, 09:48:28 PM »
     Don't you see the contradiction?  One third of the power goes away before it reaches the rotor.  The remaining two thirds goes through the rotor where 87.5% of it is removed.
But Betz says a rotor can only remove 59.3% of the power that reacts with the rotor.  That's a contradiction.  You need all the incident power to interact with the rotor to get to the 59.3%, and I believe that is the intent of Betz's analysis.
     Those infinitely thin rotors might be easy to store, but they are very hard to manufacture.  You need to show the behavior for real physical rotors.
     One more thing.  A windmill is not the reverse of a propeller.  A propeller can be 80% or more efficient. not so for a windmill. ;D

jimovonz

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Re: Research Project - Experts Please Reply
« Reply #45 on: February 02, 2012, 04:28:34 PM »
I am sorry but I see no contradiction. Betz has no concern for how we extract the energy so any argument relating to blades/turbines/propellers or any other method of extraction is irrelevant. The energy we are interested in extracting from the wind is the kinetic energy due to its motion and to extract any portion of this we have to slow it down. If you place an obstruction in a freely moving fluid,  then the fluid will simply flow around the obstruction. What ever device we come up with to extract energy from the wind, by definition has to restrict the flow to some degree and because of this some air will always move around the device. The greater the restriction (the more it slows down the air moving through it) the more air that will flow around it eluding capture. If we are considering a round disc device (eg HAWT) then the extremes would be a very thin hoop through which practically all air passes unimpeded and a solid disc which forces all air to flow around it - both of which represent zero energy capture. Betz recognized that somewhere in between these two extremes lies a point of maximum energy availability. Once again, this is nothing to do with how we capture the energy or how eficient that device is at doing its job. It is simply an observation that the mere act of removing energy causes a portion of the total available energy to become unavailable to us. Contrary to most presentations of the calculations/assumptions Betz used to derrive his figure of ~59.3%, it is actually not so hard to follow once you grasp the intent and easily reproduced on a spreadsheet. I am sorry, but it all makes perfect sense to me and unless you can come up with that worm hole into which you can dump endless quantities of motionless air, you are stuck with it.....

jimovonz

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Re: Research Project - Experts Please Reply
« Reply #46 on: February 02, 2012, 05:44:12 PM »
     Don't you see the contradiction?  One third of the power goes away before it reaches the rotor.  The remaining two thirds goes through the rotor where 87.5% of it is removed.

In the optimal situation according to Betz 1/3 bypasses the the rotor (goes away) - correct. The remaining 2/3 goes through the rotor where 88.9% of the energy available is extracted. The remaining 11.1% is in the momentum of the the air mass that continues on beyond the rotor with 1/3 of its initial velocity. All this amounts to 59.3% of the energy available in the air that would have passed through the rotor area if it were unimpeded.  I am not sure where your figure of 87.5% comes from.

Im not sure if you have missed the point Betz is making or if you have just not thought this through. You did not comment on your mistaken assumption that according to Sparwebs explaination of Betz, 1/3 of the air goes missing so I assume that you now accept that in Betz's optimal case, mass is conserved?


keithturtle

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Re: Research Project - Experts Please Reply
« Reply #47 on: February 04, 2012, 11:49:53 PM »
Here is a video from FloDesign that expresses the idea being discussed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WB5CawKfE2M

I'm not sure how far along they are in developing it, but now they don't crow about it like they did a couple years ago; they say they have a start-up but it's essentially a blank page

http://www.fdwt.com/

http://flodesign.org/our-work/windwater-turbine/  

Does it really work?  IDK   They say 100kw on this one [in a hurricane, maybe] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqHipyQccKU&feature=related

Turtle
« Last Edit: February 04, 2012, 11:57:29 PM by keithturtle »
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kevbo

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Re: Research Project - Experts Please Reply
« Reply #48 on: February 06, 2012, 12:47:15 PM »
     Don't you see the contradiction?  One third of the power goes away before it reaches the rotor..

NO.  All the power reaches the rotor.  The rotor slows the air, and extracts ~ 2/3 of the power from it.  1/3 of the power remains in the air exhausted by the rotor.

finnsawyer

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Re: Research Project - Experts Please Reply
« Reply #49 on: February 07, 2012, 09:02:34 PM »
      Check out the derivation of the Betz Limit on this site: wwwwind-power-program.com/betz htm.  The interesting thing about it is that it has the velocity through the rotor unchanged and involves the pressure difference between the front and back of the rotor, as I do in my diary "The Betz Limit - Again".  They basically show your diagram, but the input stream that passes through the rotor gives an efficiency of ~59%, which is what I have been asserting must be true under the Betz Limit. :o

JW

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Re: Research Project - Experts Please Reply
« Reply #50 on: February 07, 2012, 09:12:41 PM »
"and if you jump off a bridge you dont fall "up or sideways"

Fin has done some pretty good write-ups here on the forum, he ranks up there with Flux, in my opinon anyway...


JW

jimovonz

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Re: Research Project - Experts Please Reply
« Reply #51 on: February 08, 2012, 04:24:08 AM »
Check out the derivation of the Betz Limit on this site: wwwwind-power-program.com/betz htm. 
I'm sorry but the derivation of the Betz limit on this site is the same as any other I have seen and all my previous statements still apply. 

The interesting thing about it is that it has the velocity through the rotor unchanged and involves the pressure difference between the front and back of the rotor, as I do in my diary "The Betz Limit - Again". 
I'm not sure what you are referring to when you sate that "the velocity through the rotor is unchanged" To quote directly from the site you referred to: "the velocity through the actuator disc is the mean of the upstream and downstream velocities in the stream tube" - This is exactly what I had previously shown.



electrondady1

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Re: Research Project - Experts Please Reply
« Reply #52 on: February 08, 2012, 09:47:39 AM »
three pages and we didn't get to the "Panemone" vertical yet ? :'(

finnsawyer

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Re: Research Project - Experts Please Reply
« Reply #53 on: February 08, 2012, 10:24:48 PM »
      Jimovonz, there seems to be some magic going on here.  The rotor takes power from the kinetic energy and the air speed remains constant through the rotor?  One would think that an air foil making power due to its lift force would have to somehow slow the air causing the lift.  Such is the requirement of the standard mechanical derivation of the Betz Limit.
      The derivation of the site I directed you to is not mechanical, but rather thermodynamical, as it involves the use of Bernoulli's equation and pressure.  There is in fact no requirement that the power come from the kinetic energy, but could come instead from the difference in pressure.  That should point those willing to question in a new, {but actually old} direction.  I invite all to take the journey.  The real magic here is the universality of Betz's Law.  I've seen a derivation of the Betz limit that involves directly the internal energy of the air flow, but have not been able to find it.  If anyone runs across it, I would appreciate a link to it.  Thanks! ;D   

jimovonz

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Re: Research Project - Experts Please Reply
« Reply #54 on: February 09, 2012, 02:08:41 PM »
Finnsawyer, I have previously held your posts in relatively high regard but can only surmise that you are now taking the piss.

You started off by claiming that according to Sparweb, 1/3 of the air mass was going missing. After both Sparweb and myself gave a perfectly good explanation as to why you were mistaken, you proceeded to completely ignore it.

You then refer us to a website where supposedly 'the velocity through the rotor is unchanged'. The website clearly states that the velocity through the rotor is the average of the up and downstream velocities exactly as I had pointed out in the diagram I posted. You completely ignored my response and instead now claim that the derivation of the Betz limit on this page is 'thermodynamical'. I'm not sure if you see the same website as I do when I go to the link you provided but I see no thermodynamic analysis, in fact there is no mention of heat flow what so ever. Yes the derivation considers pressure differentials but this is just another way of describing the exact same process as we typically see when considering Betz and indeed gives the exact same results. It is very much a 'mechanical' analysis.

You go on to state: 'There is in fact no requirement that the power come from the kinetic energy, but could come instead from the difference in pressure' This statement highlights in my opinion a fundamental flaw in your understanding. Are you seriously claiming that the difference in pressure some how is not derived from the kinetic energy of the air mass? So where does the energy come from? Perhaps you are claiming that the temperature of the air downstream of the turbine is reduced or maybe nuclear fusion/fission?

At every step you attempt to inject some baseless and irrelevant claim that the classic interpretation of the Betz limit is somehow flawed. When questioned on the relevance of what you have claimed and faced with a reasonable argument contrary to your own, you completely ignore it and move on to yet another baseless claim. You are obviously not interested in a discussion at all and seem to be intent on baiting someone into polluting this thread with content only vaguely related to the topic.

I doubt very much that there is any point in further discussion on this matter.

TimS

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Re: Research Project - Experts Please Reply
« Reply #55 on: February 10, 2012, 03:38:30 PM »
Here Here.  No more discussion is necessary.  If you want to discuss whether you really think the Betz limit is valid, start your own thread.  I happen to think it is pretty well established.  It is actually called Betz' Law, dudes, and is listed as such, with much explanation, in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betz_limit

12AX7

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Re: Research Project - Experts Please Reply
« Reply #56 on: February 11, 2012, 12:59:54 AM »
I have NO dogs in this hunt,  but after being "messed up"  by the facts listed by wickipeda I'd not trust that site to have the "absolute truth".     As long as "just anyone"  can go there and "edit facts",  wickipeda is just "one of those places"  where "I read it online, so it must be true!    *fail*!   *L*

ps    I know NOTHING about Betz!

finnsawyer

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Re: Research Project - Experts Please Reply
« Reply #57 on: February 14, 2012, 09:13:24 PM »
     Jimovonz, apparently you have trouble understanding what you read.  Go back to the site and study their equations 4a and 4b.  The first applies before the rotor and the second after the rotor.  Both equations have the velocity term Ut, which is your vaunted average.  The velocity is the same on both sides of the rotor.
     I believe you made mention of a solid disk.  I'd like to take a look at that case.  We know that the air must be deflected around it.  Bernoulli's equation can tell us something about what happens in that situation. 
     Far before the disk we can write:  P1 + 0.5pV1^2 = C1, where C1 is a constant, value unknown.

     Now when the air is deflected no work is done so we can write for the air flowing past the edge of the disk: P2 + 0.5pV2^2 = C1.

     We can equate the two equations: P1 + 0.5pV1^2 = P2 + 0.5pV2^2, where V2 is known to be 1.5V1 via a mathematical solution of the problem.

     Solving for P1 - P2 we get P1 - P2 = 0.5p[(1.5V1)^2 - V1^2] = 0.5p[2.25V1^2 - V1^2] = 0.5 p[1.25]V1^2, which is 25% greater than the energy available from the kinetic energy.  Where does that extra energy come from?  The answer is "From the internal energy of the air flow", which brings us to the realm of thermodynamics.  Whenever you see Bernoulli's Equation applied know that thermodynamics has entered the fray. 
     By the way, the venturi effect means that the pressure P2 will be the pressure immediately behind the disk, so the pressure difference is really a measure of potential energy that we can put to use in real cases if we're clever enough. :)