Author Topic: Range with Induction Cooktop  (Read 23358 times)

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ChrisOlson

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Range with Induction Cooktop
« on: February 17, 2012, 02:36:06 PM »
My wife bought a new Electrolux range with an induction cooktop, from Sweden.

Compared to gas cooking, which is only about 40% efficient (and my wife refuses to have a gas appliance in the house anyway), the induction cooking is about 90% energy efficient.  It uses less power to cook the same thing that our old electric range with conventional surface units used to use.

We have had it for almost two weeks now and I think it is saving us about 7 kWh per week compared to what we used to use with our conventional GE range.

We have tried various cookware on it and cast iron cookware works the best.  Magnetic stainless steel cookware is second best, copper cookware clad with magnetic stainless is fair.  Copper, non-magnetic stainless steel, glass or aluminum cookware does not work at all with it.  My wife has an "induction plate" that is basically a ferrous metal plate that glass or other non-ferromagnetic cookware can sit on.  The cooktop heats the ferrous plate, which heats the non-ferromagnetic cookware via conduction.  This works to use cookware that is not compatible with induction cooktops but it is not very efficient.

The induction cooking is very quick and even - it will heat a stainless pot of water for boiling potatoes in about 90 seconds or so at 2.3 kW power draw.  It is very nice for cooking things on a cast iron griddle, such as pancakes, eggs, etc, because the whole griddle is hot instead of just having a "hot spot" in the center under the "burner".

The range cost us about $4,000 and my wife really likes it.
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DamonHD

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Re: Range with Induction Cooktop
« Reply #1 on: February 17, 2012, 02:47:31 PM »
I bought a stand-alone induction 'hotplate' to try out and could not make it work with *any* of our pans at all and had to go and buy a suitable one specially.

Which means the new gizmo has basically not been used at all.  Bv<

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ChrisOlson

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Re: Range with Induction Cooktop
« Reply #2 on: February 17, 2012, 03:08:21 PM »
I bought a stand-alone induction 'hotplate' to try out and could not make it work with *any* of our pans at all and had to go and buy a suitable one specially.

Damon, if you have any cast iron pans it should work beautifully with those.  If a magnet will stick the pan it should heat up.  My wife threw out some clad copper cookware that did not work at all with it.  She never liked that cookware anyway, and the final decision to get rid of it was the new range.

Cookware that is compatible with induction cooking has a special marking on it, or the box, that looks like a bunch of loops.
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Bruce S

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Re: Range with Induction Cooktop
« Reply #3 on: February 17, 2012, 05:16:02 PM »
Damon;
There as Chris pointed out "adapters" that will go between the induction and pot that will allow you to use your regular pots.
I'm not about to pitch a 25 quart (23L) stainless steel pots away :-)
Our two unit are the table top type and we love plugging them into an outlet and using a Lodge flat griddle to sizzle up a couple sirloins  :P.

Chris: Welcome to the club  ;D.
I have had the chance recently to plug one into a MSW (2Kw at 12Vdc  :o)and TADA! Worked just like it was plugged into a "Normal" outlet. Will suck a small battery bank quickly, but I do like the soft start on them.

The tops can be hot! When cooking a large pot of chili or weeks worth of stew, but it cools pretty quick.
We've even used our Coleman cook ware on it.
Cheers;
Bruce S
 
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DamonHD

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Re: Range with Induction Cooktop
« Reply #4 on: February 18, 2012, 05:27:57 AM »
Yes, I may go and look for an 'adapter'.  But it'll ruin (well, complicate) my efforts to estimate relative (CO2) efficiency vs gas for my Web site!

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Bruce S

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Re: Range with Induction Cooktop
« Reply #5 on: February 19, 2012, 09:43:39 AM »
Damon;
Factor in the efficiency savings and you'll quickly be ahead. Here in the Midwest Natural gas is much lower in cost to use, but by factoring in the speed and higher heat conversion shows why these are a smarter route
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hvirtane

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Re: Range with Induction Cooktop
« Reply #6 on: March 11, 2012, 12:55:53 PM »
I would like to know the real efficiency of that induction cooktop. Is it in reality better than a normal electric cooktop?

-hv

ChrisOlson

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Re: Range with Induction Cooktop
« Reply #7 on: March 11, 2012, 07:56:06 PM »
Yes, it is.  The power savings is not necessarily in how much amps the thing draws or the power it consumes while cooking.  It is because it is more even heat, you use the power for less time, and you heat the cooking vessel instead of heating an element and transferring heat to the cooking vessel.

The range my wife bought is roughly 90% efficient at converting electricity to heat.  The elements on a conventional stove top might be that efficient too, except for one problem - you loose a lot of the heat in the process of getting it transferred.

Long term it has been saving us about 7 kWh per week as compared to what our old conventional range used and my wife, after getting used to it, absolutely loves it.
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joestue

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Re: Range with Induction Cooktop
« Reply #8 on: March 11, 2012, 08:10:59 PM »
My 60$ induction cook top can evaporate water from a 3 quart pot at 78% efficiency.
That includes radiation, convection and (electrical losses which i estimate at 10%.)
An electric stove can do better than that, but probably only 10% better, unless you want to push more than 1500 watts into the system as an attempt to reduce the radiation losses of the pot itself. as the whole system gets bigger it will approach 99% efficiency.

The real savings is in the fact that there's no thermal mass involved and no wasted heat when you forget to turn it off.
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hvirtane

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Re: Range with Induction Cooktop
« Reply #9 on: March 12, 2012, 07:08:03 AM »
Has anybiody really measured the differencies of the consumption of the energy between different cookstoves?

I think that the electrical cookstove based on resistance turning electricity into heat is almost 100 efficient in that process and losing only little by heating an iron plate first, because you can turn it off early to use the heat from the iron plate. 

-hv

DamonHD

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Re: Range with Induction Cooktop
« Reply #10 on: March 12, 2012, 08:12:17 AM »
Lots of people have measured the relative efficiencies of (say) boiling water for your tea/coffee in a jug kettle, in the stove, in a microwave, etc, so your favourite search engine can probably turn up several examples.

Here's an example:

http://withouthotair.blogspot.com/2008/10/how-to-boil-water.html

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bergmanj

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Re: Range with Induction Cooktop
« Reply #11 on: March 12, 2012, 01:28:18 PM »
Chris,

I'd really be interested in finding-out what your 40% efficiency for gas cooking is based on.  I've not seen that before; and, utility electricity is typically from 7 to 14 % efficient from burning coal to the residential outlet (33% coal burning, 50% turbine / generator, transmission + distribution losses).

PV is usually less, and fossil-fueled backup generation even less (unless using the "waste" heat for other uses such as space heating).

I'm just outside of Duluth MN, and think that You must be fairly close by, going by some of yor previous posts.

Regards,   JLB


SteveCH

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Re: Range with Induction Cooktop
« Reply #12 on: March 12, 2012, 02:11:03 PM »
Four.

Thousand.

Dollars.





hvirtane

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Re: Range with Induction Cooktop
« Reply #13 on: March 12, 2012, 03:51:48 PM »
I tried to find real measurements. A national American testing institute seems to have one quite reliable test. But even that test seems to be a bit ambivalent. If properly used, the normal electric cooktop seems to be almost as efficient...   

-hv

Bruce S

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Re: Range with Induction Cooktop
« Reply #14 on: March 12, 2012, 04:55:05 PM »
Four.

Thousand.

Dollars.
Yup, and probably not the most expensive.
Really want sticker shock? go have a look at the Viking ranges :-)
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ChrisOlson

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Re: Range with Induction Cooktop
« Reply #15 on: March 12, 2012, 05:32:34 PM »
I tried to find real measurements. A national American testing institute seems to have one quite reliable test. But even that test seems to be a bit ambivalent. If properly used, the normal electric cooktop seems to be almost as efficient...

Ours has saved us about 7 kWh per week in energy consumption.  I have a very good logging system keeping track of all power in vs usage, and since we live off-grid 7 kWh is a substantial savings for us.

The US Dept of Energy has some information on them, and there's also a Wikipedia deal on them:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Induction_cooking

My wife is Swedish and she wanted a Swedish-made range.  She bought it when we were in Sweden for Christmas and had it shipped to the US.  Induction ranges seem to be more popular in Europe than they are here in the US.  It was not the most expensive one - it cost about $3,600 USD and another $400 to get it shipped to the US, plus six weeks to get it thru customs.
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hydrosun

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Re: Range with Induction Cooktop
« Reply #16 on: March 12, 2012, 08:40:25 PM »
As someone who has been off grid since 1985 I've done a lot of experiments in efficiency in cooking. My solar cookers use no fuels to cook and heat water. But when the sun isn't shining  i went looking for an efficient way to cook. I had read that a solar cooker is equivilent to a 250 watt heating element so i put a crock pot into a very insulated box. I could can fruit in jars with only 250 watts. All th eheat went into the food. i then found "cool touch" rice cookers that didn't have any exposed metal parts. I could throw a towel over them and little heat radiated out. It still let out some steam and steam is a very good conductor of heat. I bought an  induction plate and put a pressure cooker on it and covered with more towels. the newer pressure cookers don't release any steam once up to pressure. so I could can vegetables with litttle heat escaping. the induction cooker had a lower efficiency on the inverter than a strait resistance load. and the induction plate had a fan to keep the thing cool so it couldn't be converting all the electrical energy to heat. but no steam escaped and the towels kept most of the radiant heat in.
The most recent experiment is to use an electric pressure cooker by max-matic. I added aerogel insulation between the double walls. The aerogel has a R-4 rating for less than a half and inch thickness. I found it on ebay for $5 square foot. I'd read about it's superior insulation properties for more than 20 years but finally found a lower price That Can be used in limited applicatons. So now I have a super insulated pot That cooks quickly under pressure and the inverter is working efficiently on a pure resistant load. the unit uses 900 WATS and once up to temp it can hold the temp without more input for more than 10 minutes. Last night i canned 4 quarts of raw potatoes. It took about 10 minutes to get up to pressure and then was off and on for the nest 20 minutes and then shut off for the next 20 minutes to achieve the 40 minutes of 10psi for 40 minutes to safely can potatoes. I still need to put on the watt hour meter to see exactly how much power is used. but i know it is less than other methods because no heat escapes. When not canning I put the timer for 3 minutes under pressure and it fully cooks them without any more power for 15 minutes.
So bottom line. the induction cooker is more efficient at puttin ghat into your pot than a burner. /but most of the heat is still lost from steam, especially if the lid isn't on. and then more heat is lost out the side of the pot. So discrete electrical "rice" cooker are much more efficient than any range burner with the metal pot sitting on top. I now  also have a rice cooker that can also fry bake and steam with a well insulated cover. so that is replacing our large metal frying pan. I just found a brownie maker at the thrift store today that might do cookies and replace  the convection oven. So the experiments in ultra effluent cooking continues.

bergmanj

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Re: Range with Induction Cooktop
« Reply #17 on: March 16, 2012, 11:28:05 AM »
Chris,

I'm still interested in your reply to my query (#11 above).

Thanks,   JLB

ChrisOlson

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Re: Range with Induction Cooktop
« Reply #18 on: March 16, 2012, 12:21:07 PM »
Sorry, I didn't see that.  The US Dept of Energy figures these efficiencies from the utility meter.

For us, we live off-grid and generate all our own power.  The efficiency of the electric range is therefore many times higher for us than buying gas to run a propane unit.  We also heat all our water with wind and solar power.

Of course, this requires an inverter(s) that supply 240 volt power, as high consumption devices like ranges and water heaters draw too many amps on 120 volt power.

You're splitting hairs when you look at PV efficiency or wind turbine efficiency for somebody that lives off-grid.  Who cares if a solar panel is only 17% efficient at converting sunlight to electricity?  The sunlight is free and the government hasn't figured out a way (yet) to tax or charge for it.  Once you own the equipment to harvest it, every kWh you get is free from a energy source that never runs dry. (at least in the foreseeable future of the human race).

Once you spend the money to generate enough power from wind and solar to run devices like this, which we have done, burning gas makes absolutely zero sense.

The "accepted" off-grid installation uses propane gas for things like cooking, water heating, and possibly space heating and even refrigeration.  And the RE sources provide enough power for lights and other small loads.  Not us.  I kept building until we got a system that generates 30 kW a day on an average day and 70+ on a really good day.  With enough battery capacity to carry us for two days with no incoming power.  The only thing we use LP for is our generator, which ran slightly over 400 hours in 2011, mostly in Jan-Feb.  And I'm continuing to build on my system to drop the gen hours to less than 250 for 2012.  Our house is totally electric - even an electric clothes dryer, and we heat with wood.

This new range has cut our weekly usage about 7 kWh compared to our old GE electric range we replaced with it.  That's good enough for me in proving that it's more energy efficient than a conventional range with surface "burners".
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bergmanj

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Re: Range with Induction Cooktop
« Reply #19 on: March 16, 2012, 01:09:13 PM »
Chris,

Thanks for the reply.

I'm still wondering about the 40% gas burner efficiency, however.  Where'd that figure come from? I've not seen it before, and I'd like to dig a little deeper.

Regards,   JLB

ChrisOlson

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Re: Range with Induction Cooktop
« Reply #20 on: March 16, 2012, 01:17:35 PM »
Well, here's one reference:
Energy efficiency is the ratio between energy delivered to the food and that consumed by the cooker, considered from the "customer side" of the energy meter. Cooking with gas has an energy efficiency of about 40% at the customer's meter and can be raised only by using very special pots

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Induction_cooking

Here's another one:
In general, cooking appliances have low efficiencies. Standard propane cook top burners are roughly 40% efficient and standard propane ovens have efficiencies around 10% (Source: “Residential Appliances,” by E SOURCE, Inc., 1996, and DOE). Efficiency is defined as the amount of energy absorbed by the food divided by the energy produced.

http://www.alliantgas.com/why-propane/cooking-with-propane/

All you have to do is google it.

One of the most dramatic demonstrations that will kill the doubts of even the most skeptical is to take a gallon of water and put it in a pot.  Then heat that water to boiling on an induction cooktop vs a propane burner.  The amount of energy required to raise the temperature of a specified amount of water is well known (either in BTU or calorific input).  The amount of BTU from a kWh of electricity is also well documented (3414 BTU/kWh).  The BTU input to a gas burner can also measured with great accuracy.

Compare the two and there is no comparison.  The induction cooktop wins hands down.  It's darn near as efficient as the microwave with that water experiment.
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« Last Edit: March 16, 2012, 01:35:31 PM by ChrisOlson »

ChrisOlson

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Re: Range with Induction Cooktop
« Reply #21 on: March 16, 2012, 02:01:51 PM »
Here's a nice video that folks can watch that doesn't push any one brand over another and shows how much more efficient an induction unit is, as compared to gas:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yWxr3m2Au2s

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Re: Range with Induction Cooktop
« Reply #22 on: March 16, 2012, 08:00:04 PM »
Quote from: ChrisOlson

For us, we live off-grid and generate all our own power.  The efficiency of the electric range is therefore many times higher for us than buying gas to run a propane unit.  We also heat all our water with wind and solar power.

Once you spend the money to generate enough power from wind and solar to run devices like this, which we have done, burning gas makes absolutely zero sense.

I disagree with this statement.  It depends on what your definition of efficiency is. I can cook my food for about twenty years on a $150 gas range with $4000 worth of propane. Additionally, I can invest $3650 in something that will grow my money in year one. Batteries are a consumable, and if I don't have to double the size of my battery bank to cook with electricity, there's yet more dollars available for propane.

Then again, if your wife won't have gas appliances in the house, a $4000 range is way cheaper than a divorce  :)
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ChrisOlson

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Re: Range with Induction Cooktop
« Reply #23 on: March 16, 2012, 09:57:57 PM »
I disagree with this statement.  It depends on what your definition of efficiency is. I can cook my food for about twenty years on a $150 gas range with $4000 worth of propane.

Well, here's another way to look at it - why not just get assimilated by the Borg and buy your power off the grid like good Borg do?  It's more economically feasible than generating your own power.

Or does it have to do with a chosen lifestyle and enjoying being independent and not hooked up with the Borg?  There are some of us who don't worry about every little nickel and dime because there's more to life than money.  If you're happy with a cheap gas burner and buying fossil fuels from the Borg to run it, great.  But we're not.  For years I told my wife, "Ah, you don't need that stuff."  And she never complained.  Not once.  Her smile and being happy because she finally got a range that she wanted is worth way more than trying to save a few bucks on batteries and buying propane instead.

My wife was gone tonight so I made a little movie of her induction cooktop heating up some cold tap water in about a minute.  LOL!
http://youtu.be/lFxiMbkOyeU
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Re: Range with Induction Cooktop
« Reply #24 on: March 16, 2012, 11:38:38 PM »
Quote from: ChrisOlson

Well, here's another way to look at it - why not just get assimilated by the Borg and buy your power off the grid like good Borg do?  It's more economically feasible than generating your own power.

No, it's not more economically feasible in my case, nor is it the case for thousands of people who live miles from the nearest power line. It would cost fifty thousand dollars to bring the power in here. I built an off grid system for a fraction of that.

Quote
Or does it have to do with a chosen lifestyle and enjoying being independent and not hooked up with the Borg?  There are some of us who don't worry about every little nickel and dime because there's more to life than money.  If you're happy with a cheap gas burner and buying fossil fuels from the Borg to run it, great.  But we're not.  For years I told my wife, "Ah, you don't need that stuff."  And she never complained.  Not once.  Her smile and being happy because she finally got a range that she wanted is worth way more than trying to save a few bucks on batteries and buying propane instead.

Well, I enjoy the concept of independence as much as the next guy, but if it costs one hundred thousand  dollars to make 10KWhr a day from renewable energy and use a 100% efficient cooking source, or it costs $10 a day to use a 42% efficient cooking source from the Borg. I am going to make my decision based on money. Not because I want to save nickels or dimes, but because it just makes sense to me economically.

Do you mine the lead in your batteries and make the sulfuric acid and buy the oil from Saudi Arabia to make those nifty plastic cases they live in? Do you smelt the copper and draw it into nice even long strands and varnish it so you can build wind turbines?

I agree that there is more to life than money,  but money is a pretty nifty thing to have if you need something you can't make for yourself. In my case I choose to buy some propane every year, because it is cheap and it suits my needs. You might choose to buy more welding rod, or more batteries, or a nifty charge controller. Both of us are spending money on things we value, and there's nothing wrong with that.

When you say you enjoy your independence,  I believe you think that those of us who use use propane, even modestly, are second class citizens. I feel slighted and annoyed. I wish that you would acknowledge that you are as dependent on society for your needs as the rest of us.
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ChrisOlson

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Re: Range with Induction Cooktop
« Reply #25 on: March 17, 2012, 12:18:35 AM »
When you say you enjoy your independence,  I believe you think that those of us who use use propane, even modestly, are second class citizens.

I never said anything of the sort.  You were the one that disagreed with what me and my wife CHOSE to do.  I might feel slighted and annoyed because we chose to do things with electricity, and I built a system that can do it, and yet it's not "efficient" by your standards because it cost a lot of money to do it our way.  You're reducing efficiency to money.  For me, efficiency is getting away from fossil fuels.

You wrote:
I disagree with this statement.  It depends on what your definition of efficiency is. I can cook my food for about twenty years on a $150 gas range with $4000 worth of propane. Additionally, I can invest $3650 in something that will grow my money in year one.

I could care less if you burn propane or not.  But I notice you got three dollar signs in two sentences along with the words "invest" and "money".  Your priorities are obviously way different than mine.  I summed it up quite well with this statement (regardless of whether or not it fits in with your grand scheme of "efficiency"):

Once you spend the money to generate enough power from wind and solar to run devices like this, which we have done, burning gas makes absolutely zero sense.

And I stand by it, regardless of your disagreement.  It's my CHOICE to do it that way.
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alcul8r

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Re: Range with Induction Cooktop
« Reply #26 on: March 17, 2012, 12:50:09 AM »
Once you spend the money to generate enough power from wind and solar to run devices like this, which we have done, burning gas makes absolutely zero sense.

For most of us, you are talking spending $4000 to save a dollar's worth of electricity per week.

For those fully off the grid, you are talking spending 10s of thousands to generate enough power to avoid spending a few dollars a week on propane, some time and a little money for generating biogas, or a few hundred dollars for more collectors to run a microwave or crockpot.

Sure, please the wife, but don't invent false economics to convince me.

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ChrisOlson

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Re: Range with Induction Cooktop
« Reply #27 on: March 17, 2012, 11:57:50 AM »
but don't invent false economics to convince me.

False economics?  Where did I generate false economics?  We have spent close to $30,000 on our power system in the past year so we could do stuff like this.  And my wife spent $4,000 to get an induction range here from Sweden.  Where did I say it's cheap?

What I said was, the induction cooktop is more energy efficient than gas or a conventional electric.  And that's an undeniable fact. 

It's our choice to do that and power our home with renewable sources instead of burning fossil fuels.  If you want to put a digester on your outhouse and run your stove with fart gas, just so you can use gas and cook with fire, that's great.  But DO NOT try tell me that burning LP gas is good for the environment, or that it's "better" because it's cheap.  When I look at the environmental impact of the fossil fuel industry, and the fact that all of "modern civilization" as we know it has based its prosperity on the burning of fossil fuels, the whole thing is an unsustainable house of cards.

My wife's new induction range fits in nicely with the way we want to live.  It's very energy efficient and we can power it without burning fossil fuels.  But it's not cheap and at no point in time did I say it was.  In the end, when the human race ends up having to dig its way out of the fallacy of using fossil fuels to sustain its very existence, it's going to be anything but cheap.  My wife and I hope to show our kids and grandkids, by example, that there's a different way.
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thirteen

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Re: Range with Induction Cooktop
« Reply #28 on: March 17, 2012, 12:11:36 PM »
Where would cooking with wood come in at? My place is heated with wood and cooking is done with wood. What would a person use to test the results of burning wood. A good clean burning fire seems clean to me. I need to do something with my trees and keeping warm twice with the same wood is not to bad.
Solar does sound nice and clean so does wind, wood, and water. We all have our reasons for doing what works for us and our families.
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ChrisOlson

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Re: Range with Induction Cooktop
« Reply #29 on: March 17, 2012, 12:59:49 PM »
Where would cooking with wood come in at?

We heat with wood.  I grew up with my mom cooking on a wood-fired kitchen stove.

Wood is a renewable fuel and is carbon neutral.  It is the oldest fuel source known to humans.  We have heated our house for years with wood from mature trees that died and tipped over, or got blown down in storms.

The hair-splitters can try to claim that mechanized wood harvesting, such as using chainsaws and the like, makes it non-carbon neutral.  But the environmental impact from using minimal amounts of a fossil fuel to harvest the wood is much less than simply burning fuel oil or gas to heat your home or cook with, to my way of thinking.
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Re: Range with Induction Cooktop
« Reply #30 on: March 17, 2012, 02:05:09 PM »
It took me several years to learn to cook on a wood cook stove but I think the food sure is nicer when cooked with wood. It doesn't get much better to me than eating a wild turkey or nice roast that was cooked with wood heat in a good stove. I must give credit to the woman that cooked with a wood cook stoves they new how to cook. Not like the microwave of today's general cooking. Homemade bread with wild honey and a good stew cooked all day can only be topped with family and friends.

Or as it is only today green eggs and ham and green beer/ale.
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ChrisOlson

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Re: Range with Induction Cooktop
« Reply #31 on: March 17, 2012, 02:07:42 PM »
It took me several years to learn to cook on a wood cook stove but I think the food sure is nicer when cooked with wood.

I still prefer the charcoal grille for walleye fillets    ;D
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Chris

ChrisOlson

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Re: Range with Induction Cooktop
« Reply #32 on: March 17, 2012, 03:12:26 PM »
This is a photo of my wife's range - I realized I never did post a photo of it.  It's all stainless steel except for the cooktop, which is some sort of ceramic glass:



It's idle power draw from the electronics is very, very low.  I bumped the search watts up in the inverters to 16 and they still stay on.  At 24 watts they go into Search Mode.  I had the search watts in the inverters set at 8 watts before, which is just over what the breakers in our panels draw, and that would allow the inverters to go into search mode.  When I installed the new range, I bumped them 16 and this keeps the range clock on, as it's just below what the idle power draw is.

So the idle power draw of this range is less than 8-10 watts.

Full power draw of the big induction element on the RF of the cooktop is 2.5 kW.  The smaller one in the back is 1.3 kW.  The two on the left that allow long things like a griddle to be placed on them are 2.6 kW combined.

The convection oven draws 7.2 kW on broil, or when using the Self Cleaning mode in it.

The controls are Wave-Touch®.  They come on when you place your hand by them and they are touch sensitive controls.

I don't know what the model number is - it's a really long number.  It's Electrolux is all I know, Made In Sweden.
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Chris
« Last Edit: March 17, 2012, 03:25:04 PM by ChrisOlson »