Light Weight Wind Turbine Project - as I build it.

[ChrisOlson]

OK guys, I talked to Tony on the phone about this deal.  So it's time to clear some stuff up.

Tony was selling stuff from Presto Wind.  And this is the stuff that's on his website.  He realizes it's all bogus, the stuff on his website is coming down and being redone, and that's the main reason Steadfast has not gotten his ReDelco.  Tony has been trying to figure out how to make it work.  The stuff from Presto Wind does not work any better than any other Delco 10SI frame alternators, or their derivatives.  And he's had a lot of returns and complaints on this stuff, and he's trying to rectify that.  He actually called me, looking for advice on it, and I wasn't able to take the call when he called.  So I called him back.

Tony does not do this for a living - he has to work like the rest of us to make money to live on.  Hurricane Wind is a sideline for him because he's interested in renewable energy, and especially wind turbines.  He got hooked up with the wrong people to form his renewable energy business on, and he knows it now.

So to be clear, the ReDelco that Steadfast is getting is not going to have "amazing output".  It is, after all, a Delco 10SI frame unit, and they are what they are.  He is not advertising it as being "amazing", or 400 or 500 or 1,000 watts, or anything like that.  He calls it a "trickle charger".  It is wound with 42 turns of AWG 21 so its max output is going to be about 8-10 amps , or maybe a hair over 125 watts on a really good day.

As I told Tony, the big unknown is those bent aluminum blades.  There is no tested or published Cp or ideal TSR data for those.  We don't know what their unloaded tip speed ratio even is, or if they like to run at TSR 4 or TSR 7.  Whatever they like to run at, they are not going to make much power anyway because they don't have real airfoils.

Tony got into the "low wind" super low rpm Delco's because that's what everybody else has got.  He knows it's wrong.  But he wants to sell a product that works as advertised, and right now he's up to his armpits in junk that he got from Presto Wind, and trying to figure out how to recoup his losses.

So Steadfast will be getting his ReDelco.  It will not be "amazing".  It will cut in at 140-150 rpm, and that might work with those bent aluminum blades, and it might not.  Steadfast will have test that.

The ReDelco will not work for an engine driven standby DC unit.  The stator is way too light.  It would need to be rewound with 4 turns of 13 AWG for 24 volt, and then you may as well use a stock 57 amp stator out of a car alternator.  It does have a claw pole rotor in it like a Wind Blue.
--
Chris

[sean_ork]

As I told Tony, the big unknown is those bent aluminum blades. 

those blades will spin - but any proper wind with a loaded mill will cause them to flex at their roots

ali being ali when flexed will work harden, and therefore stop flexing and start cracking

PVC drain pipe blades would be much more durable, and probably no less aero ''efficient'' - and certainly a darn sight cheaper

[birdhouse]

funny chris,
i think tony called me right after you.  i called him earlier, and he got back to me. 

he's a really nice guy, that is re-couping from a bad business that he's trying to turn around.  he's definitely at a realization that his units made from a 10si are not heavy hitters.  he is determined to continue to build quality products that do work! 

i hope that his 10si alternators do work well!  and they may turn into the only small genny that, we as a forum can advocate...  especially if the price is right!    from the sounds of it, these may turn out better than anything from wind blue or MWS or other questionable outfits. 

i hope the best for him and hope he continues to make more and more products of various size!

adam

[hurricanewind]

Ok guys enjoyed the chat and great to clear things up.....I would have  preferred my prototype not have made a debut on a Other Power thread with thirty pages but oh well Baptism by fire......glad to get the misunderstanding straight and move along......

[fabricator]

You guys will have to excuse me if I don't say "Awe poor tony" that is the way the world works, as Steadfast has found out, if you don't do your research you get bit, he still knowingly sold junk on feebay, just exactly what small wind DOES NOT NEED.
Nice guy? Quite possibly but he still knowingly sold junk to trusting customers.

[fabricator]

Fab.

All the best for tomorrow.

Thanks Frans.

[ChrisOlson]

When I spoke to Tony on the phone I told him if he can break from the "mold" that all these other Delco sellers are in, with trying to reach cut-in at 80 or 90 rpm, that it would be possible to build a Delco 10SI based unit that we could endorse.  Get the turns down and use bigger wire, and get that cut-in up to 300-350 rpm.  Then recommend decent homebrew blades be used on them instead of these plastic sword blades, or bent aluminum cup blades.

Then you would have something that could possibly touch 300 watts on a regular basis.

It's a really easy modification to make - just rewind the stator.  It's still a Delco with all its limitations.  But if it's price competitive with the treadmill motors and so on it could make a viable unit for a small wind turbine.

Yes, Tony is a very nice fellow on the phone, and he's dedicated to righting his wrongs.  He got hooked up with the wrong outfit and it's going to take him a bit to recover from it.
--
Chris

[ghurd]

PS I have 14 volts at 80 rpm....what are you doing wrong?

Like I said WAY back there somewhere, it is no problem to get 14V at 80RPM.
Be careful what you wish for:
I have a feeling that the 14V at 80RPM is going to be a new problem in itself.
G-

[hurricanewind]

He can have his money back if he doesn't want it Fab.....I am sorry for calling you a candy @ss ...every group has their guy  I guess your him.....We will let the chips fall where they may the item is on the way and I am confident in my work......we will let the customer decide....I guess everyone has a debut   maybe I was hoping mine wouldn't come on a 30 page thread on the most read forum on the web...I asked Hugh a while back to test a unit so I guess this is close enough.....

[hurricanewind]

http://<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/hurricanewindpower/7458344510/" title="Cane 1 by hurricanewindpower, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7122/7458344510_7b14bc2656_z.jpg" width="640" height="480" alt="Cane 1">[/url]  Lookie Lookie dat boy sure do make a pretty redelco look at it shine......hell with the output Fab you are looking at all of the wrong things  did you see the paint job on that thing???

[Steadfast]

Look how RED it is....

[sean_ork]

Look how RED it is....

style over substance ?

[fabricator]

Look how RED it is....

style over substance ?

Apparently we are ok with that.

[Volvo farmer]

Reading this thread is a lot of fun, really it is. 

[electrondady1]

is that a camouflaged tape measure?
i can't find them when they are bright  yellow!

[hurricanewind]

Not saying no substance I am simply joking and saying let the customer decide.......he has a large machine from a member of this forum that knows his stuff to compare it to......let the chip fall where they may. I am comfortable with my redelcohood.....

[sean_ork]

Apparently we are ok with that.

so it would appear - between you and me, I am fairly convinced that the OP has a connection other than just being another customer with the supplier

who in their right mind would pay so much, wait for so long, for something known to be unsuited to the site or the requirement

it's just a pointless, expensive and time consuming toy

there is no need to document it's impending failure, the OP is known to be in a low wind area - the shiny red thing WILL generate, but only in a gale with a twin blade setup, there's kids here that build 250w mills from junk for school projects !

time to call it a day on the light weight one - get the money back and buy more steel

[sean_ork]

Not saying no substance I am simply joking and saying let the customer decide

do you really think the OP has the right site, knowledge and experience to do justice to the red thing ?

Surely the outcome will either be damage before any proper results have been achieved - or, eventually a realisation that the red thing isn't productive (unless a gale blows through)

why not find someone with a LOT of wind and ask them to produce a well documented set of findings

[Bruce S]

OKAY Folks; GM mode AGAIN!!!

I've asked the negative remarks be left out ---nicely---
NOW since no less that two members have had conversation with Tony, that anymore like the accusation that SO made WILL get your status be put into read only.

Tony (HW), would not have ChrisO chiming in unless ChrisO was comfortable with it.
fun remarks are okay it's part of doing business , BUT accusing SF being in cahoots with HW is NOT. PERIOD!

[sean_ork]

BUT accusing SF being in cahoots with HW is NOT. PERIOD!

I think that's a rather overly inventive take on my comment - ''in cahoots'' implies some form of background skulduggery, which wasnt what I was saying

if you'd ordered something and had to wait for so long wouldn't you be wanting your money back by now ? - especially knowing it's not going to perform

be honest

[Bruce S]

Sean_ORK
what part if this sentence did I get wrong "I am fairly convinced that the OP has a connection other than just being another customer with the supplier"

AND if you don't like my stance on this you can certainly take it up with the owners & admins.
BUT as I said already if ChrisO hasn't torn these two apart after he spoke with Tony @HW then I'm more inclined to let his posts continue.

[sean_ork]

Sean_ORK
what part if this sentence did I get wrong "I am fairly convinced that the OP has a connection other than just being another customer with the supplier"

AND if you don't like my stance on this you can certainly take it up with the owners & admins.
BUT as I said already if ChrisO hasn't torn these two apart after he spoke with Tony @HW then I'm more inclined to let his posts continue.

perhaps direct words don't go down so well here

from where I sit it now appears that the red alts vendor is being treated with a new found respect, despite having had a well documented history, simply as a result of a couple of phone calls and a line about wanting to unload some past business history

people are paying good money, and getting NOTHING

are you condoning that ?

[sean_ork]

as a gesture of good well, how about Mr Hurricane giving SF his money back ?

isn't that the very least he could do to mitigate the long wait SF has had, and it would sit will with the generosity shown by others towards this project

some much needed good PR for Mr Hurricane ?

[Bruce S]

Perhaps you didn't take the time to read what both ChrisO (reply#759) and bridhouse (reply 761) put up after actually speaking with Tony?
I don't condon selling false anything to anyone which is one main reason I travel to RE shows looking for crap-ola, however since Tony IS willing to send the unit to SF and possibly JUST possibly send one to ChrisO for true testing.
He's finally coming around?

MY original request still stands, these posts do no good for the information trying to make its way onto these virtual pages.
If you want to continue this discussion start your own post in the pub where you can trash stuff.
I trust ChrisO's word.
Besides , he's already offered him his money back, or did you not read that?

[sean_ork]

I've read it far too often 

I will sit on my hands from now on

[Southbuck]

I spent a year with a wind blue pm alt.
I purchased the 540 stator which was supposed to cut in at 150 rpm.
Guess what? The 540 stator is wrapped with #21 wire.
You can get the stator for $60, slap it in any Delco 10si with a PM rotor
and you have what venders call a wind generator.
After I experimented with different stators and different gauge wire
I mounted it to be ran off a gas engine. Works good for a stand by
generator with a B&S engine.
That is its only worth Ive found.


Southbuck

[ChrisOlson]

If you want to continue this discussion start your own post in the pub where you can trash stuff.
I trust ChrisO's word.
Besides , he's already offered him his money back, or did you not read that?

I'll chime in to clear this up - Steadfast does not want his money back.  He wants to fly the ReDelco because he's put a lot of work into building the head for it, and has the blades and hub for it.  I know what the ReDelco is and what it's capable of, and that's really no longer the issue.  I'm interested in seeing what those bent aluminum blades can do with it.  If it doesn't even put out 50 watts when he gets some gusty winds I know now it's the blades, not the generator unit.  That thing should be capable of around 125 watts with the swept area that the blades have, considering that they'll be (theoretically) operating well below ideal tip speed.

Tony did make an improvement to this thing over what he got from Presto Wind.  He's got the cut-in up to around 150 rpm, which is WAAAY better than the 80 or 90 rpm we were originally talking about.  He could make it better yet by getting it up to 250-300 rpm, and he may work on a stator for that.  If he does that, these things would be a viable unit that could easily compete with the treadmill motor projects with a nice set of homebrew blades on it.  But to be clear, they're a 300 watt or so unit - not the 1,600 watts that some of these sellers advertise at ridiculous wind speeds of 72 mph, or whatever it is.

I really question how well those blades work - they're nothing really different than PVC blades except for the material used.  And we all know that PVC blades work, but they don't match a good set of homebrew blades with real airfoils.

So that's where it's at - Steadfast wants to fly the thing because he don't give up easily on a project.  And I applaud him for that, despite all the setbacks and recent tower failure.  He'll pick up the pieces, rebuild it and get it working.  Steadfast has learned a LOT thru this project.  And for every newbie out there, that's what it's all about, besides having fun with it.
--
Chris

[Steadfast]

I spent a year with a wind blue pm alt.
I purchased the 540 stator which was supposed to cut in at 150 rpm.
Guess what? The 540 stator is wrapped with #21 wire.
You can get the stator for $60, slap it in any Delco 10si with a PM rotor
and you have what venders call a wind generator.
After I experimented with different stators and different gauge wire
I mounted it to be ran off a gas engine. Works good for a stand by
generator with a B&S engine.
That is its only worth Ive found.


Southbuck

Hopefully, Tony's new PMA design actually does what wind blue lied that theirs could do...
We will soon see...

Because of Chris' generous donation and his timeliness in delivery,
I will fly the HBird First, which runs on Chris' Axial Generator...

But I will also video a bench test with Tony's PMA when I get it in the mail... 

(The ONLY way I will fly the LBird 1st, with Tony's PMA and those GROOVY falcon Blades, is if CHRIS asks me to do so.)
.
.

[tanner0441]

Hi

Over the weeks along with others have condemed SFs building style and safety practices, I voiced doubts on the performance of the ReDelco, but now we have two members who obviously have enough knowledge and are willing to take time to help people on this site. They have spoken to Tony and are prepared to sit back and wait to see what happens. If it's good enough for them, then having been following this thread from the begining I will not have a problem being patient for a while longer.

If it workes for SF and if it is only low output so be it but he will have done what he set out to do, stick a lightweight turbine in the air and watched it turn.

I still however doubt the viability of his site, or the ali blades, if it doesn't perform he can put Chris's unit up with the wood blades depending on the output of that he can put the ali blades on that to test them against a known standard.

The final option is to pack the ali bladed and the ReDelco off to Chris to try it on a good site. It would be nice to see an NPT thermister embedded in the windings to monitor the temperature.

Brian

[ChrisOlson]

The final option is to pack the ali bladed and the ReDelco off to Chris to try it on a good site. It would be nice to see an NPT thermister embedded in the windings to monitor the temperature.

I would be kind of fun to do that.  But it's a given that being wound with 20 AWG in wye configuration the ReDelco is going to run really hot at much over 10 amps.  On a wind turbine application the standard fan used on a car alternator will not do much for cooling at the lower rpm's a wind turbine runs at.  So no matter what you do there is not enough cooling area to keep the wire below the safe limit for the insulation in a Delco 10SI frame for a high output unit on a wind turbine.

So, basically, you put the thing on a good wind site and really push it, and it will burn it up.  I estimate the stator resistance to be around one ohm with 42 turns of 20 AWG in wye.  So at 150 watts output (15 volts @ 10 amps) the efficiency is already down to 60%.  If you push it to 300 watts (15 volts @ 20 amps) now you're dissipating 400 watts in the stator and the efficiency is down to 43%.  It simply won't take that for very long and you'll have smoke.
--
Chris

[Southbuck]

"He calls it a "trickle charger".  It is wound with 42 turns of AWG 21"

Not 20 gauge.

Do the math, its even worse.

I bet it has a wind blew stator in it.....a STA 540
same cut in, same gauge wire equals the same number of turns...

Would be too easy to delay a guy and order it from wind blew
I don't trust nobody who can say a product is junk one minute, then ok the next.
It will be a trickle charger at best.


Southbuck

[tanner0441]

Hi

Without knowledge it is easy to be critical of something. Then when you find out more about a thing your view can change, it is called having an open mind and not being blinkered.

I was in a similar situation a few years ago when asked to stop fitting Mercruiser engines, reliable big block chevy, for Yanmar diesels which I had only come across on skid mounted generators. After fitting one pair I was convinced. They outperformed the petrols in every way, and the props ran slower and cavitated less.  So if Chris has spoken to Tony and is happy that Tony is aware of the expected figures, and has the full knowledge of the proposed site, I will happily sit quietly by and wait for the actual results. My origional concernes were tower safety issues, which have been dealt with, so I am happy to leve it to Steadfast, who is now being guided by people with more knowledge of the turbine side of things.  I hope it does work out because there are people who for whatever reason can't or don't want to wind their own system can perhaps have an off the shelf unit at a price competetive to the Chinese market.

Brian


 

[hurricanewind]

Ok guys......be critical as you like ..I have handled a lot of delco PMA's and everything I have handled either cogs and will not spin or the airgap is so loose no power is made. I have made painstaken efforts to do the best with the parts I have available now and the PMA works better than anything I have touched in a bench test.....honestly I do not know what it will do in the air because I have no flown it i.e blade set up ect......it is beyond me how a group of folk can make a determination on what something will do without knowing all of the details. I have offered the man his money a return and you guys criticize me for not giving him his money back.  I do not for one minute say that the PMA will put out 1 kw as some people will claim however we are talking about a 12 volt battery bank.....Chris recently in a post or 2 ago made mention of his opinion being the PMA needing a 300 RPM cut in......which is about what the PMA here does in a 24 volt environment.....The PMA ran in a 24 volt environment will do a great deal more than the estimates on here...I ran the PMA under a load for 15 minutes and the back casing wasn't hot and the stators are wound with high temp wire but you guys say the PMA will burn up ......

It is a 12 volt battery bank in a low wind application....Can someone tell me what the what you would reasonably expect here? Over time if you have a PMA that will not reach a cut in 95 percent of the time how much power do you  expect to make?   Personally for me the song Nothing from Nothing leaves NOTHING comes to mind...... The only away around that is with high voltage and MPPT

The bottom line is this....its your forum I have no delusion that I am going to convince anyone on here of a thing. I simply stated let the man test the unit and I will live with the results end of story.
As smart as many of the folk on here are I am not sure many of you are aware of what the term self fulfilling prophecy means. Simply put  kindly put away the rope until after the trial