Light Weight Wind Turbine Project - as I build it.

[Steadfast]

Turnbuckles....oh... rat snott!!!
I knew I was forgetting something....

Back. To Lowes I go to blow yet MORE cash!!!

[DanG]

http://gorum.ca/rohntens.html

[thingamajigger]

@Fabricator

The part before the comma contradicts the part after the comma, and I know of at least one home builder that would throw a machine on the scrap heap if it only did 1kw in a 20 mph wind.

Maybe your user name should have been The Amazing Kreskin because I never did mention the diameter or the swept area of my 1 kw turbine or even what kind of turbine it was, you are amazing. .

[Steadfast]

Rats...bats...and flamming cats....
Lowes only had crappy 250lb turnbuckles....   
At Say 50ft length using 3/16 cable do I need a turnbuckle with a minimum of a 1000 lb rating.like all the other gear I purchased?

now I've got to go to an agri-supply to find some.
and they are always closed except for when I am at work.


Uuuuuugh....

[CraigM]

Take your time Steadfast, we're not going anywhere.

A few posts back you presented a sketch with your idea of how the gin pole, tower base and winch are to be set up. So as to not get that darn horse in front of the cart again why don't you elaborate on the sketch and formulate a plan of your ideas and then present your plan to the forum.



Sketch out an aerial (birds eye) view of your property, where the shed and base are located and where the four guy line anchors will be positioned. Create a side view of the tower and guy line attachments on the tower. Show details of the gin pole, guy lines, base and pivot point. Basically plan this out and build in on paper, include every detail you can think of and present a dimensioned drawing or sketch to the forum. The forum members can then study your plan and make recommendations as needed. This should keep you from making costly mistakes and will help the forum better understand where you're at. Plan it first, get the plan approved and then you'll have the plan to follow as you build. If you get to an area and you'd like to make a change or have a question, present your plan with the change and do not move forward until you get it signed off from the Super Duper Hero's.

I really want to see what a delco type machine is capable of. It is what it is and if it puts out X amount of watt-hours in a given month so be it. Nothing wrong with a smaller size machine as long as you accept and understand its limitations.

No hurries equals no worries.
CM

[spottrouble]

an interesting Idea i might just try tomarrow.

Yes, I have an excellent scrap yard 10 miles away...BUT, because some MORON poked his toe, and then tried to sue them.  They not only, no longer let folks stroll through to go shopping, but they also no longer sell scrap steel to the general public...   

Now. I may have a thick skin...
But THIS SORT OF THING really gets me totally, out of control, insain, ANGRY     

That sucks, I've heard of yards like that, only seen a few, usually the bigger ones. I'm a regular customer, hauling stuff in and out There are the areas anyone can go, and the off-limits areas, I guess I spend enough they let me go where ever I want , heck the new employees think I work there

[CraigM]

Heck, maybe create a poll and have some fun with this where everyone can enter a guess as to how much output the ol' red delco will produce. Not sure if a poll will tally results this way but it would be interesting to hazard a guess and see who comes closest to a given parameter such as watt-hours over a given time period.

The winner gets bragging rights for being one with the red delco.

CM

[niall2]

thread softly though....

rembember the vendor of these alt,s is following the thread ( but seems reluctant to post with a basic power curve ) ..

fair enough , he may not be a member here ......

if it turns out to be a trickle battery charger in good/high wind for Steadfast...thats a result...

but the web/ebay/cost  sales pitch might have to be according changed to suit .....nothing wrong with a trickle charger , but its a hard sales pitch for payback ....

[fabricator]

Lots of folks don't even use turnbuckles, you just pull the wires as tight as you can get em by hand and that's usually pretty close to where they need to be. if you want em tighter you can rig a small come along to a clamp up on the cable and snug em up.
And remember, on your cables,  never saddle a dead horse.

[fabricator]

@Fabricator

The part before the comma contradicts the part after the comma, and I know of at least one home builder that would throw a machine on the scrap heap if it only did 1kw in a 20 mph wind.

Maybe your user name should have been The Amazing Kreskin because I never did mention the diameter or the swept area of my 1 kw turbine or even what kind of turbine it was, you are amazing. .

I don't hold a candle to you though.

[thingamajigger]

@Steadfast

Yes, I have an excellent scrap yard 10 miles away...BUT, because some MORON poked his toe, and then tried to sue them.  They not only, no longer let folks stroll through to go shopping, but they also no longer sell scrap steel to the general public...   

I remember where I grew up we had a community dump site full of old cars, trucks, washing machines etc.... and I would spend hours there scavenging motors, relays, wire and such. Damn I think I learned more about electronics at the dump than I did in college. You know they talk about our modern civilized society but we have lost a great deal of freedom along the way, the freedom of choice. I once read a quote which puts it in perspective, anyone who is willing to sacrifice freedom for security deserves neither, and I am afraid in this day and age this statement is as relevant as ever. We have lost a great deal since I was a young man and I fear that at this rate our children may be little more than slaves to the machine at the rate we are going.

[Steadfast]

Bravo!   

[Steadfast]

Making the gin pole:

First we scrapped the bottom 10ft galvanized pole.
Cause ya can't weld gavanized anything with out sickness or death...
 
Just like Kristi suggested:
Here we are hammering in small pipe into the bottom of the mast to act as bushings for the pivot screws.


weld them into place:


Clean up and re-drill holes through bushings:
[/img]

Welding the gin pole onto the Mast.


Welding on the 45 degree reinforcement cross beam:


The bottom 10ft of the mast - installed.
(The winch stand straightened out but not yet fixed)


Steel clip hole welded to the end of the gin pole:

.
No cables yet... no extra 20 feet added...YET!
soon... but not yet...

We have to get the new reinforced winch stand built.
then we will cable up and test raise the tower again....
.

[tanner0441]

Hi

That's better, you have made yourself some work filing your bushes out though, I would have made the bushes slightly longer than the mast width welded round the outside then cut it off with an angle grinder, but I'm lazy...

I take it the keyhole slot is for the cable to support the upper sections of mast to the gin pole.

Keep posting because the crap you took from us in the beginning now your following safer practices you deserve to be told your getting it right.

When you have had a dummy run you could hang a sandbag on the end for a couple of lifts and see how it performs, and chase the alternator guy.  When you anchor your guys to the trees slip plastic hose over the guy to stop it cutting into the tree, and wrap round the tree a couple of times to stop it riding up.. I have webbing straps round 8in square fence posts on 2 of my guys. The tension on mine are just after any sag is pulled out but not like a guitar string, and make sure the tower is vertical, if not the turbine will always come to rest pointing in the same direction, don't ask how I found that out.

Brian

[keithturtle]

Making the gin pole:

Cause ya can't weld gavanized anything with out sickness or death...
 

Huh?    I just grind the zinc away, far enough past the hot zone, and it welds just fine.   As long as none of the tell-tale white wisps appear, I don't sweat it.   I do it all the time.   Ain't got sick yet, and last time I checked, I wasn't dead.

Then again, turtles have a very long reputation of tenacity...

But I'll admit I see a contradiction in your approach to safety here... [sorry]

<grin>

Turtle

[birdhouse]

Lots of folks don't even use turnbuckles, you just pull the wires as tight as you can get em by hand and that's usually pretty close to where they need to be. if you want em tighter you can rig a small come along to a clamp up on the cable and snug em up.
And remember, on your cables,  never saddle a dead horse.

i'd have to disagree with this for me personally. guy wires stretch, and i don't think it's acceptable to relocate cable clamps once tightened before.  turnbuckles give you ultimate adjustment. 

if i wasn't using turnbuckles, i'd use a barbed wire fence puller to get the guys to snug.  i don't really think a person can hand snug them as tight as i like to see them.   

also, welding galvo isn't that big a deal.  grind it off and or hold your breath.  i've used both techniques many times and never gotten sick. 

hopefully soon you'll be pulling watts from the wind!

adam

[Steadfast]

I was planning to get the full tower and cables up...
I have all the parts to do it too...
BUT
I was invited to go shooting at "Range 37" instead.

Man, I just love how well my CC, Smith and Wesson M&P 40c shoots!   
Ten shots, Ten downed targets...Hoooah!

[madlabs]

As to welding galvanized metal, which is essentially impossible to avoid, just wear a mask. I have a 3M mask (forget the number) that is (supposedly) able to filter out the bad stuff. IMHO you should be wearing a mask when welding anything anyway. I grind away the zinc to get a better weld anyway, but I don't worry about getting every bit.

And yeah, turnbuckles. I have exactly one windmill under my belt, but lots of boats. Masts need turnbuckles.

Jonathan

[Bruce S]

@Fabricator

The part before the comma contradicts the part after the comma, and I know of at least one home builder that would throw a machine on the scrap heap if it only did 1kw in a 20 mph wind.

Maybe your user name should have been The Amazing Kreskin because I never did mention the diameter or the swept area of my 1 kw turbine or even what kind of turbine it was, you are amazing. .

I don't hold a candle to you though.

Gentlemen;
I'm going to ask nicely this part of the thread die out.
This is Steadfast's posting and he's coming along nicely; I really don't want to see this kind of barbing going on mucking up the his future posts.
Thanks for understanding.
Cheers;
Bruce S

[Steadfast]

This weekend I am headed off with the Family and our 1940s ventage teardrop camper
to go camping at the 2012 Tearjerkers 15th birthday campout at Charleston SC!



So, in my absence, the dutiful father in law has generously volunteered to fabricate a new tripod winch stand.
which should look something like this:

or like this:

I cannot string the cables and test raise the mast without the winch stand completed.

Besides... I am still pretty much stuck awaiting the delivery of my supercalafragilistic alternator to be delivered to me... 
.
.
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[Bruce S]

Nice camper!! I prefer John's island myself. Good fishing and the dolphins are fun to watch!!
Safe Travels

[birdhouse]

steadfast-
that looks pretty good for a winch stand.  i think you could do a few things to make it better.  first, if you could lower it closer to the ground, there will be less overturning forces involved that way.  you could also increase the footprint of the three contact points.  this would also make it stronger. 

second, i'd rather have the two contact points on the back, and the one on the front, on top of concrete.  you can weld random scraps of steel to the bolt also to act as rebar. 

for the base to fail, either the back leg(s) are going to have to lift, or the front leg(s) are going to have to sink into the dirt.  that's why i think you'd be better of with one front leg on concrete, and two back legs with earth augers. 

just some thoughts

adam

[Steadfast]

great thoughts.... very helpful...
I will talk about them with my father in law....

[fabricator]

I've welded literally tons of galvanized with regular old mild steel wire, it won't kill you, just give you flu like symptoms for a little while, you must build up a tolerance though because it's been 25 years since I had the galvanized flu.

[birdhouse]

great thoughts.... very helpful...
I will talk about them with my father in law....

i think the big change is now you're asking BEFORE you proceed, where you used to proceed, then have issues, then we'd all have a laugh, and nit pick you. 

maybe this 28 days of concrete setting was just what was needed to get EVERYONE into a good constructive working order. 

so...  my constuctive critism goes as so:  grind all welds before welding, use WAY more concrete than you think you'll ever need, ALWAY use rebar in your concrete, NEVER add anymore water than you have to to mix concrete, alway use a gin pole, you can weld galvo, just hold your breath, if you're nervous, it's not strong enough, use tie wire to hold clips, turnbuckles, shackles, ect from loosening, GROUND your tower, be ready for the gin pole to crash down at the end of lowering, use a 4x4 in 4x4 for raising, or your winch, yea, that's all i got. 

good luck steadfast! 


i know we've been kinda as$holes, but it's for good reason...  you're doing much better now!

adam

[fabricator]

great thoughts.... very helpful...
I will talk about them with my father in law....

i know we've been kinda as$holes, but it's for good reason...  you're doing much better now!

adam

At putting up with a$$holes. LOL

[Steadfast]

great thoughts.... very helpful...
I will talk about them with my father in law....

i know we've been kinda as$holes, but it's for good reason...  you're doing much better now!

adam

At putting up with a$$holes. LOL

Thanks for the olive branch Birdhouse... well said and offered...I  accept...

However, Just to show some spine,
No...I have ALWAYS been good at working with a$$holes... 
That's why I was able to hang in there, and stick with it here... 
nah nah nah...

However, I only bother to do so when the a$$holes in question actually KNOW something
worthwhile about what I am researching/learning. If you guys where merely arrogant knuckleheads I would not have wasted my time, and simply walked away.

To your credit: Your advice has been very valuable, even though it came at a PRICE...

But You know what?
You guys still have not been able to offer me another PMA source
for a low rpm, semi high output, PMA which weighs much less than 60 pounds...
(try 15 pounds or less)

Sure, you guys have had an easy and fun time poking fun at my possible source.
("Possible" because: Mine admittedly has yet to be proven) 

However, Personally, I also don't think you guys have a clue where to find one,
Much less know how to make one.... Just sayin....
(again- Nah nah nah  )

he he he - Lets see if you Guys can/will step up to THAT challenge... 
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.

[jlt]

I personally would build my own . the 6ft design from Hugh Piggot. Only uses 8 2x1x1/2 mags.
and could be built for less than the red thing.

        Get your money back and build a real turbine.Or go cheap and pick up a used ECM motor
They work as good as a GM alt and at a fraction of the cost.

       I found 6 ECM from a local  salvage guy for 20 bucks each.

                                                                                        JLT

[birdhouse]

steadfast-
i love your stoutness as a person!

You guys still have not been able to offer me another PMA source
for a low rpm, semi high output, PMA which weighs less than 60 pounds...

the reason we haven't, is because there isn't one available that has a good reputation.

wind blue makes them, there's the air-x turbine, and about a hundred other delco 10si and some larger alternators with PM out there that are more or less junk. 

a member here "jerry"  has done more research and testing here than probably anyone with small diameter commercially made turbines and alternators.  to put it in general terms, he has never found a single unit that has worked well out of the box. 

his solution, is to tear the unit open, and start modding the unit...  switch the wiring from star to delta, or order one with a higher voltage (ie: 48v unit for a 24v bank) and then switch the rectification to IRP or delta.  separate out multiple in hand coils, and IRP those, or add capacitors with the rectification rig, or change out factory blades to a blade set that will better match the mods he has performed, or any combination of the above.  i'm guessing he's tested 20-30 units in the size range you're talking about.  at one point he had i think 13 small wind turbines mounted to the roof of his business!  (not that we advocate roof mounting)

basically, he has the electrical knowhow to squeeze every last bit out of these commercial pma's, and he still DOESN"T GET MUCH!  this is why it's soo easy for us to look at a delco PMA that's been redesigned and supposed to be better than sliced bread, and think:  here we go again, another POS with a big pri$e tag!

one of my first questions on this forum was basically " i'm looking to buy a wind blue PMA"  i was very quickly steered in another direction, did a bunch more research, and finally bought a fanuc motor for $160 shipped. 

simple physics:  to get good power from a PMA, it has to have big magnets, and decent amounts of thick copper wire, neither one of those are light weight.  i know that a huge generalization, but i hope you get what i'm saying. 

you best bet is either to find a suitable PMA motor, or build a 4 of 6 foot hugh style machine.  i'd bet a 2.5 horse power treadmill motor would outperform the delco you're looking at.

the worst is the price you pay for these new fangled delcos.  you probably could have bought the magnets, had rotors laser cut, bought the wire and the trailer hub for a 4' hugh machine for the price you paid for that delco.  that's why it bums us out. 

i've typed too much.  just some early morning thoughts.

adam

[tanner0441]

Hi

You want a low RPM turbine because you live in a low wind area. Low wind speeds don't have any power in them. I used to work on a marina and a lot of the sail boats had little wind turbines stuck on some sort of pole on the back of the boat, the blades would be singing in even a moderate wind bur when I managed to get in the cabin on some of them they were only managing a few watts.  The best one only did 50 watts in an unpleasantly strong wind.

If you want power at low RPM your not going to get it from a vehicle type alternator, your going to need large diameter rotors with lots of magnets and coils.  I have played with car alternators, and been told I was wasting my time, and even after rewinding a couple I gave up. My wind conditions are crap, lots of turbulence and a large wooded area about 60 ft off to the north.  Because I thought it was something I was doing I bought a 200W Chinese copy, six and a half ft dia.  and stuck it up, I then stuck another 10 ft on the bottom of the mast. I then stood for hours watching a voltmeter I put together to monitor the output from the turbine, it would float up and down between 6V and  just below cut in, as soon as the load went on it slowed down.  I have seen it do the rated output I have seen it double the rated output, but on one of those occasions I lost the felt from the roof of my shed so my interest was diverted.

There is no power in low winds, there is less power in low turbulent winds.  It is nowhere near as much fun but if you want to make your own power reliably, looking at your pictures look at solar. To make it even worse for me I have a stream that runs past the bottom of my garden, and that doesn't have enough power to turn a generator either, unless it's about to come through my fence.

Keep playing with it because your going to learn a lot from it, and your going to have loads of fun, but your also going to spend some time pi$$ed off when your standing holding your hat on and your turbine is only swinging around on the yaw bearing.

Brian

By the way have fun the weekend.

[Steadfast]

steadfast-
i love your stoutness as a person!

Why... thank you... thank you very much...
I'll be here all week... Don't forget to tip your waitresses...   

the worst is the price you pay for these new fangled delcos.  you probably could have bought the magnets, had rotors laser cut, bought the wire and the trailer hub for a 4' hugh machine for the price you paid for that delco.  that's why it bums us out. 

adam

Ahhh, see now,
You keep assuming I am half as brilliant as I seem to actually be... 

I say this because... I HAVE already bought those magnets...
I bought them from Dan Fink way back in early March...
In fact, own 12 of Dan's 1x2x.5 inch N42 grade NdFeB, Nickel plated magnets
along with:
2 sets of plastic triple blades: one 5ft the other 7ft
the 12 Magnet layout template
the 12 Magnet Rotor



I bought them as a "back up" option just in case I could not find a single PMA that works...
I knew I understood virtually NOTHING about electricity back then, and truly thought it would take forever to make my own, and the process in the book looks daunting to say the least... It still does...

I also bought them as a SHTF scenerio purchase
(after all, where are ya gonna find these kind of magnents when the zombies attack.)
This way, I fiquired, I could always build one of the home brew alternators, strap it onto a caged tread mill, chunk a zombie in there, and dangle a random animal brain in front of him on a stick...

But seriously,
The Homebrew design in the book is great but due to sheer wieght of the finished rig, it is not so great in Class 2 or lower wind areas, like mine... My problem is also this:
A rotar with 12 magnents produces too much resistence to work in my class 1 wind area as well.

Now,
If you know guys know where I can get a better cut rotar (with say 6 or 8 spaces) I might actually begin to try to make one... Otherwise, to put in the time to build a 12 space generator seems to me to be an exercise in folly.
.
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[fabricator]

There is no correlation between weight of alternator and the wind zone classification, actually that's not completely true, it is actually the inverse of what you believe (for God knows what reason) the turbine rotor (blades) is simply a collector, the larger the swept area the more watts you will extract from any given wind speed. Unless you screw something up really bad the resistance in the coils plays a very, very small part in power production.
You have come into this with preconceived ideas that are simply not so, unless you are building a geared machine, a small alternator with little copper and less magnets NEEDS to spin very fast to make a semi decent amount of power, that is at this time given the magnets and winding material we have simply an immutable law of physics.
Those things may change (almost certainly) in the future but for right now we are stuck with the way it is, there is simply no such thing as a small low rpm alternator that will make a reasonable amount of power.
Unless you live in Eureka, just because you want a short light weight tower and light alternator you cannot change physical laws in your specific area to suit your specific problem, period, end of story.

[Steadfast]

There is no correlation between weight of alternator and the wind zone classification, actually that's not completely true, it is actually the inverse of what you believe (for God knows what reason) the turbine rotor (blades) is simply a collector, the larger the swept area the more watts you will extract from any given wind speed. Unless you screw something up really bad the resistance in the coils plays a very, very small part in power production.

You have come into this with preconceived ideas that are simply not so...

Hmmm...
that is interesting... explain further....