Light Weight Wind Turbine Project - as I build it.

[Watt]

Tony

Aside from some of the comments in this thread, most replies have met their intended purposes.  That is to set the expectations of this type of generator as they will be and to influence your ultimate knowledge of being watched.  When the part is delivered and produces some energy, you along with SF will have benefited from this thread.  Without this thread, he may well have gotten a " confirmed " none producer which has a pretty paint job.  Time will tell regarding the product and you have learned some lessons as well.  One bit of advice for you, these guys on this forum produce power from wind and are very good at doing just that.  Some of these guys have been doing this for decades and have been there and done that.  Some of these guys are just ready to call it like it is and move on.  You just happened to fit into that product category.  Don't take it personally, do as has been mentioned up to this point and mold with that knowledge and advice.    Good luck with meeting your business model as their is a place for a small charger and don't loose sight.

Ok guys......be critical as you like ..I have handled a lot of delco PMA's and everything I have handled either cogs and will not spin or the airgap is so loose no power is made. I have made painstaken efforts to do the best with the parts I have available now and the PMA works better than anything I have touched in a bench test.....honestly I do not know what it will do in the air because I have no flown it i.e blade set up ect......it is beyond me how a group of folk can make a determination on what something will do without knowing all of the details. I have offered the man his money a return and you guys criticize me for not giving him his money back.  I do not for one minute say that the PMA will put out 1 kw as some people will claim however we are talking about a 12 volt battery bank.....Chris recently in a post or 2 ago made mention of his opinion being the PMA needing a 300 RPM cut in......which is about what the PMA here does in a 24 volt environment.....The PMA ran in a 24 volt environment will do a great deal more than the estimates on here...I ran the PMA under a load for 15 minutes and the back casing wasn't hot and the stators are wound with high temp wire but you guys say the PMA will burn up ......

It is a 12 volt battery bank in a low wind application....Can someone tell me what the what you would reasonably expect here? Over time if you have a PMA that will not reach a cut in 95 percent of the time how much power do you  expect to make?   Personally for me the song Nothing from Nothing leaves NOTHING comes to mind...... The only away around that is with high voltage and MPPT

The bottom line is this....its your forum I have no delusion that I am going to convince anyone on here of a thing. I simply stated let the man test the unit and I will live with the results end of story.
As smart as many of the folk on here are I am not sure many of you are aware of what the term self fulfilling prophecy means. Simply put  kindly put away the rope until after the trial

[Southbuck]

Tony
Is your PMA using the claw rotor with doughnut magnets?

[tanner0441]

Tony

I live in an absolutly crap wind site, I played with car alternators (wound magnet) and didn't have any luck, I have a unit under my bench with 6 wires coming out so you can switch it from star to delta. I just could not get it up to speed, I also tried DC motors, with the same result. In an attempt to prove a point I went out and bought a Chinese copy of a Berghey, 200W at 450ish RPM. I spent hours with a meter watching the thing hovering just below cuttin. I have though seen it doing its rated output and on a few occasions double that. The swept area is 6.5 ft on 3 airfoil fibre glass blades.

Chris says your unit should do what you now state it can do, not what you were saying it was going to do, this is a perfect time for you to get a set of figures that can't be disputed. The doubts I had was at no time did you state current at X RPM into an accepted load.  A simple motor with a 3 stack pully and a similar pully on the PMA, to enable you to run it at 150, 250, and 450 RPM A decent size 12V battery, A voltmeter across the battery and ammeter in series with the PMA.

Find someone who can take your figures and design a set of blades around them.

Brian

[hurricanewind]

I understand that there are many knowledgeable folk on here which is why I did not leave the first night a came on here after working 2 jobs 12 hours to what my perception was the be being "thrown under the bus".....I have not been building wind turbine for decades but have for about 7 going on 8 years now......I have been where steadfast was and that is why I will not knowingly take advantage of anyone. I am personally not afraid to admit I have had failures with success and apparently unlike some others I realize I do not walk between the rain drops. When I see intelligent people "solving for x" with unknown variables it is a bit bothersome ......I am still here because occasionally when you look around and learn something.....In reference to the statement people are ready to call it like they see it kind of speaks volumes to me of the hostility I percieved.....How can you call something for what it is that has not even been installed or tested. I simply have asked steadfast to hook the PMA up to a Doc Watson in 12 and 24 volts and bench test the thing. It puts out what it does and if the thing"burn up" I will take it back.......that's not going to happen but now it's it writing. If it's a piece of $#|+ call it as such....

The turbines I have used for the past few years on the delco platform have provided power to my rural property, pumped water, ran power tools grinders for sharpening bushhogs and brought nice things to my life......this is simply the facts.   I do concede if I lived off grid or expected the turbine to power my house heat my water, heat and air condition I would be pissed to say the least.

Now these are my observations.... I am not making things up  just what I see. In wind power "circles" depending who you speak with they all have a different opinion on how turbine should be rated...... apparently you guys have issues with all open voltage times shorted amps charts.....I can agree however I can name about 10 vendors of the top of my head that use these charts and they are not all "Redelco" wind power people
I would just point out that ginlong the last time I visited has open voltage charts posted on their site
http://ginlong.com/wind-turbine-pmg-pma-permanent-magnet-generator-alternator-GL-PMG-500A.htm
I see recently a "fixed load" chart has been added. Terry at TLG however advertises they are the home of the real world watt..500 of them...I have yet to figure out what the hell a real world watt is but in must have sounded good enough for Windy Nation to use as well. Southwest on the other hand uses 40 KWH per month on there small turbines which has no surface area for blades on the air x but is it rated at 400 watts as best I can tell but if you read the fine print they seemingly disclaim that figure.....I have even seen disagreement as to what "load" rating should be measured at....I have seen 24.9 is the accepted wind speed to rate power at but read Hydrogen Appliances state there power figure is based on  70 MPH if my memory serves me correctly. Now all of that said we have my ex vendor Tim at Presto whose charts are admittedly on my site because I have not had time to rewrite the thing who state 12v @ 100 RPM 24 V @ 200 RPM  but wait @ 300 RPM we have 48 volts.......now I have never ran a 48 volt system so this little bell never went off until I became skeptical of someone I trusted. I came to the conclusion that chart is made up.....I went on to study multiple charts from other companies and found similar idiosyncrasy's and came to this conclusion.
It's all made up
That being said if any of you have constructive input and see this as a problem I am willing to be a part of the solution

FOR THOSE OF YOU WHO HAVE NOT READ THIS I AM POSTING IT ON HERE FIRST. I AM NOT MARRIED TO THE DELCO ALTERNATOR NOR AM ITS LIFEBLOOD AND WIND POWER DEFENDER. A COMMERCIALLY AVAILABLE AXIAL FLUX GENERATOR WILL BE AVAILABLE IN THE NEXT COUPLE OF MONTHS MADE BY A PROFESSIONAL ENGINEERING FIRM AND I AM SIGNING THE PAPERWORK FOR THE FIRST PURCHASE WITHIN THE WEEK
JUST AN FYI Regards Tony

[Watt]

Laws.....

Math....

Experience......

I understand that there are many knowledgeable folk on here which is why I did not leave the first night a came on here after working 2 jobs 12 hours to what my perception was the be being "thrown under the bus".....I have not been building wind turbine for decades but have for about 7 going on 8 years now......I have been where steadfast was and that is why I will not knowingly take advantage of anyone. I am personally not afraid to admit I have had failures with success and apparently unlike some others I realize I do not walk between the rain drops. When I see intelligent people "solving for x" with unknown variables it is a bit bothersome ......I am still here because occasionally when you look around and learn something.....In reference to the statement people are ready to call it like they see it kind of speaks volumes to me of the hostility I percieved.....How can you call something for what it is that has not even been installed or tested. I simply have asked steadfast to hook the PMA up to a Doc Watson in 12 and 24 volts and bench test the thing. It puts out what it does and if the thing"burn up" I will take it back.......that's not going to happen but now it's it writing. If it's a piece of $#|+ call it as such....

The turbines I have used for the past few years on the delco platform have provided power to my rural property, pumped water, ran power tools grinders for sharpening bushhogs and brought nice things to my life......this is simply the facts.   I do concede if I lived off grid or expected the turbine to power my house heat my water, heat and air condition I would be pissed to say the least.

Now these are my observations.... I am not making things up  just what I see. In wind power "circles" depending who you speak with they all have a different opinion on how turbine should be rated...... apparently you guys have issues with all open voltage times shorted amps charts.....I can agree however I can name about 10 vendors of the top of my head that use these charts and they are not all "Redelco" wind power people
I would just point out that ginlong the last time I visited has open voltage charts posted on their site
http://ginlong.com/wind-turbine-pmg-pma-permanent-magnet-generator-alternator-GL-PMG-500A.htm
I see recently a "fixed load" chart has been added. Terry at TLG however advertises they are the home of the real world watt..500 of them...I have yet to figure out what the hell a real world watt is but in must have sounded good enough for Windy Nation to use as well. Southwest on the other hand uses 40 KWH per month on there small turbines which has no surface area for blades on the air x but is it rated at 400 watts as best I can tell but if you read the fine print they seemingly disclaim that figure.....I have even seen disagreement as to what "load" rating should be measured at....I have seen 24.9 is the accepted wind speed to rate power at but read Hydrogen Appliances state there power figure is based on  70 MPH if my memory serves me correctly. Now all of that said we have my ex vendor Tim at Presto whose charts are admittedly on my site because I have not had time to rewrite the thing who state 12v @ 100 RPM 24 V @ 200 RPM  but wait @ 300 RPM we have 48 volts.......now I have never ran a 48 volt system so this little bell never went off until I became skeptical of someone I trusted. I came to the conclusion that chart is made up.....I went on to study multiple charts from other companies and found similar idiosyncrasy's and came to this conclusion.
It's all made up
That being said if any of you have constructive input and see this as a problem I am willing to be a part of the solution

FOR THOSE OF YOU WHO HAVE NOT READ THIS I AM POSTING IT ON HERE FIRST. I AM NOT MARRIED TO THE DELCO ALTERNATOR NOR AM ITS LIFEBLOOD AND WIND POWER DEFENDER. A COMMERCIALLY AVAILABLE AXIAL FLUX GENERATOR WILL BE AVAILABLE IN THE NEXT COUPLE OF MONTHS MADE BY A PROFESSIONAL ENGINEERING FIRM AND I AM SIGNING THE PAPERWORK FOR THE FIRST PURCHASE WITHIN THE WEEK
JUST AN FYI Regards Tony

[birdhouse]

chrisO-
you state you'd love to see the redelco with a 300rpm cut in.  i'm just curious on the blade diameter you're figuring this cut in for?    AKA:  what would your ideal cut in be for lets say an 8', 10' and 12' prop?  , as we all know the larger the diameter, the slower the rpm. 

tony-  the way i look at things, is like you and other have said, the wind blues and air x's are junk.  not to mention the MW&S folks... .    so let's say your redelco does come up to the challenge of more than 100w for around $250??  who else makes a produce that truely competes with that watt and money point? 

you may have found a niche! 
not everyone is cut out for winding coils, glueing magnets...  or even know enough to find a stellar 3ph servo...

adam

[hurricanewind]

[url] http://www.hurricanewindpower.com/servlet/the-215/wind-generator%2C-pma%2C-delco/Detail [url] Guys just to clarify if you check out the page at this URL ignoring the banter open voltage shorted amps charts ect we have always sold what we call mark I II an III stators....Differently wound for power band specific wind applications.... it seems on this forum the working assumption is that we only wound things in the manner that Chris has described as was the case for steadfasts light wind PMA......That PMA was wound in the manner it was to reach a cut in at a low wind ....one that the blades I have available will reach effortlessly.....unlike Chris I do not have the ability to make a set of custom wood blades as he does that fly's at 400 RPM in low wind......that is impressive and I give the man his due. Moreover if I had known you could get that performance out of a wood blade I would have had splinters by now.....I would not however suggested a 21 wire stator to someone  that has a nice windy environment on a regular basis.Thus I see the point of view if we put the PMA sent to steadfast up on the side of a cliff in Wyoming it would burn up ...we would always use a thicker wire in that instance. If you notice the map that I am sure that most of you have seen most of it is in White not Blue low wind..Betz limit/ exponentially higher output with greater wind. Unfortunately many of us do not have the benefit of that....When we get up to speed and clear the backlog I have no problem with wiring up a dual PMA for Chris with the heavier windings that can be used in series or parallel....I know hes not a Redelco fan but a high wind test and accurate data is something I certainly don't have time to do at the present.

In reference to the question regarding ROI that is going to depend  craftsmanship and how you view return on investment...Dollar for Dollar the Axial Flux will be introducing will be at $1 per watt, solar is 1.10 or less per watt Master dealer price on Samsung monocrystalline panels 24 V 247 Watt with a 20 year warranty..cheaper if you buy imported garbage..solar is boring as hell to watch too.

[Mastiffman]

The final option is to pack the ali bladed and the ReDelco off to Chris to try it on a good site. It would be nice to see an NPT thermister embedded in the windings to monitor the temperature.

I would be kind of fun to do that.  But it's a given that being wound with 20 AWG in wye configuration the ReDelco is going to run really hot at much over 10 amps.  On a wind turbine application the standard fan used on a car alternator will not do much for cooling at the lower rpm's a wind turbine runs at.  So no matter what you do there is not enough cooling area to keep the wire below the safe limit for the insulation in a Delco 10SI frame for a high output unit on a wind turbine.

So, basically, you put the thing on a good wind site and really push it, and it will burn it up.  I estimate the stator resistance to be around one ohm with 42 turns of 20 AWG in wye.  So at 150 watts output (15 volts @ 10 amps) the efficiency is already down to 60%.  If you push it to 300 watts (15 volts @ 20 amps) now you're dissipating 400 watts in the stator and the efficiency is down to 43%.  It simply won't take that for very long and you'll have smoke.
--
Chris

 Ever since I started to hear about how hot some of these things can get and seeing some of the rated heat limitations of some DC motors (turned Gennies).... I've been wondering if there would be some way to put some type of Closed System Hydro-Jacket around the outside of the stator that is piped to a pump, resevoir and Radiator... I water cool one of PC's with distilled water, CPU cooling block, 120mmx 240mm x 38mm radiator, 2 x 1290mm x120mm x 38mm 3k rpm fans and Ram cooling jackets! same principal really... Might be a challenge designing the right stator cooling block but might be worth it.

 It's either that or making a sleave to go over the stator that would have alluminum heatsinks, of course being 3 groups that wrapped all of the way around (minus the bottom mounting or it could have a special mounting bracket that would allow for 360* heatsinks) the unit leaving the two void spaces for mounting brackets. Would just have to worry abuot hot spots... but with the right setup, it may work... or with the right setup, you don't really even need this... 

 But that's the kind of stuff that I let bounce around in my head all of the time...

[ChrisOlson]

you state you'd love to see the redelco with a 300rpm cut in.  i'm just curious on the blade diameter you're figuring this cut in for?    AKA:  what would your ideal cut in be for lets say an 8', 10' and 12' prop?  , as we all know the larger the diameter, the slower the rpm. 

5 foot.  Right around TSR 8 at 7 mph wind speed.  At 15 mph a really good 5 foot prop is only going to produce 115 watts at the shaft.  And if the gen efficiency is down to 85% you only get around 97 watts out of it.  But the key is that is has to be spinning to get that.  That 5 foot prop has to be spinning right around 600 rpm @ 15 mph to make 115 watts at the shaft.  If you got it stalled with a generator that's too stiff you'll basically get zero.

I don't know where all this low rpm, low cut-in idea came from.  But whoever thought it up don't have a single clue how a wind turbine works.

Those Delcos will not handle a 8 foot prop, no how, no way.  The shaft isn't big enough, the bearings are toys, and the generator itself is way too light duty.
--
Chris

[ChrisOlson]

How can you call something for what it is that has not even been installed or tested.

Years and years of experience.  There's a thing called Ohm's Law.  Try to violate it and you'll end up on the losing end of the deal.

Bench tests are useless, for the most part, unless you're mapping a power and efficiency curve to match the proper blades to the unit.  Otherwise bench testing tells you nothing about what the unit will do on a real tower, in real wind, with a real set of blades on it.  It's basically a waste of time.

A turbine rotor develops power at an efficiency level that is largely determined by it's speed.  Matching the rotor to the load is the key to building efficient turbines.

90% of us here have already BTDT, Tony.  All of what you're telling us, all the arguments for the Delcos, and what Steadfast is learning, is old hat to most of us.  We've already seen it before.  You're not going to pull a rabbit out of the hat.  And that's the bottom line.  There is basically zero power in low winds, so trying to get any at less than 10 mph with a little 5 foot rotor is pretty much fruitless.

After you told me that the ReDelco is wound with 42 turns of AWG 20 I already know what it is.  I've rewound countless numbers of them confounded things for cars and whatnot, and I know how much copper they hold.  And I know how much resistance you got in the thing (within a few hundreths of an ohm).  Therefore, since I already know how many rpm/volt it makes, I can tell you exactly how many amps you're going to get out of it without even bothering to bench test it.

Like I said, if you think you can defeat Ohm's Law, you got a lot to learn yet.
--
Chris

[hurricanewind]

Chris, ....Yes I know what Ohms law is thanks for the refresher . I am not sure what that has to do with the point that we sell a heavier wound PMA that would be used if I put up a windmill in a higher wind area such as where you are. I only made this comment in reference prior to the comment you made about putting our light wind PMA up in a high wind zone and watching it PMA "smoke"... nor have I suggested that a bench test has anything to do with blade matching, however it does  give you a reference point of what a PMA is capable of even if it is not being driven by the wind.... I am not sure what lesson it is I should be learning here...I have a rural property....my windmill generates power for me...I am happy....if I lived off grid yes I would put up something bigger.....
I offered to send you a dual output heavy wound PMA  as you stated you would"TEST" objectively and you as Hugh did come off with arrogant remarks.  This makes critic #2 when the rubber meets the road ...... At the end of the day the whole idea was ignorant on my part anyway. I was about convinced that I had found a place where people were knowledgeable fair and balanced. 1. I lost site of the fact that we both sell wind turbines. 2. Their is a clear agenda here and in my life my observation is those with agendas do not yield objective opinions.

 I in no way have tried to indicate for the last time that and smaller 11 pound PMA with a smaller displacement can output the power of a larger machine which is why I hate the Fast and Furious movies. I am saying for 239.99 it is a nice product .Maybe their is some reputation needed to be upheld here.....you can have it 
I am out I have more Rabbits in my hat that need to free..............

[ChrisOlson]

I am not sure what that has to do with the point that we sell a heavier wound PMA that would be used if I put up a windmill in a higher wind area such as where you are. I only made this comment in reference prior to the comment you made about putting our light wind PMA up in a high wind zone and watching it PMA "smoke"

Tony, I do not fly wind turbines on a 30 foot piece of pipe strapped to the end of a house.  My shortest tower is 74 feet.  My tallest one is 90.  I have four towers.  Once you get above 60 feet where you get away from ground roll and into clean, laminar wind you're in a whole different ballgame when it comes to what's "heavy duty" and what can cut the mustard and what can't.

You did not make me any "offer" to send me a "dual output heavy wound PMA" to test.

So basically, I see this heading back to where we started.  You are now coming up with things that are totally outside the realm of what we discussed on the phone and your credibility is starting to erode, getting a different story than what I got before.  I told you what you would need to do to those things to make them a viable unit that can compete with a treadmill motor project.  You are now back to defending your product after telling me what it has in it.

Make up your mind which direction you're going here.
--
Chris

[hurricanewind]

Read reply #798..I most certainly did offer to send you a PMA for testing..I have nothing to defend Chris..You guys have Delco dear in the headlight syndrome....I have a warehouse with about 50 turbines of other makes in stock currently... I simply asked you guys to lay off until the man tests the PMA..... Hell Steadfast call the test off we don't need it......As a matter of fact everyone take your watts view,  doc wattson and watts up and throw them away they are no longer needed......Please forward all specs to the guys in the forum and they will tell you the output......they can factor in air density from elevation plus or minus 30 percent different blades combinations all from the gauge of a stator core wire.

And below is how the members of the board here conduct themselves in the community taken from my board by your resident idiot Fabricator......I see here a serious lack of integrity and a coward....see the below excerpt.....Yes Fabricator your right it will not be shown to be completely worthless....I have always found in my life smart people do not have to try to impress others it comes out all by itself and respect follows.....Bruce Adam nice to have met you peace

"it is obvious he is trying to build something that will not be shown to be completely worthless on a greatly respected forum with some of the most respected names in small wind from all over the planet."
See below .....yes I am actually back to

fabricator
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« Thread Started Yesterday at 7:20am »   

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Hello Tony, why did you start this board? Was it to try to counter the negative things posted about your scam on fieldlines?
Advice to anyone interested in wind power, go to fieldlines.com and actually learn about what can and cannot be done with a re-purposed delco type alternator.
You certainly will learn nothing here the owner of this site is a scammer, he was selling a re-purposed delco on ebay before it was perfected, the one he has now will supposedly make 123 watts at 150 rpm cut in, which is absolutely pathetic.
He has promised a member on fieldlines to have his delco in the mail for almost every day for about six weeks, it is obvious he is trying to build something that will not be shown to be completely worthless on a greatly respected forum with some of the most respected names in small wind from all over the planet.
Save your money folks, don't fall for this snake oil sales mans scam.

Read more: http://hurricanewindpower.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=6#ixzz1z9emYYhx

[hurricanewind]

You mean we aren't supposed to be strapping up turbine to our house at 30 feet? Really

[Watt]

Tony, calm down fellow.  You are only being held accountable.  These forum members and many more members here who have not spoken up are very good at/with helping to inform/protect the re community and have experienced " the general term 'scam'" before.

Steadfast deserves to have his turbine flown and documented.  You too deserve to have your turbine documented.  Heck, I hope it goes well for both of you but if not, this forum will help you fine tune the generator.  If you choose to go it alone, make sure to read " Sir Flux' " comments regarding the iron core and its limitations.  Have you changed the iron within the core or added laminations?

As far as adding Fabricators comments to this board, in this thread from your board - the way I read that comment and your reactions here........ 

Read reply #798..I most certainly did offer to send you a PMA for testing..I have nothing to defend Chris..You guys have Delco dear in the headlight syndrome....I have a warehouse with about 50 turbines of other makes in stock currently... I simply asked you guys to lay off until the man tests the PMA..... Hell Steadfast call the test off we don't need it......As a matter of fact everyone take your watts view,  doc wattson and watts up and throw them away they are no longer needed......Please forward all specs to the guys in the forum and they will tell you the output......they can factor in air density from elevation plus or minus 30 percent different blades combinations all from the gauge of a stator core wire.

And below is how the members of the board here conduct themselves in the community taken from my board by your resident idiot Fabricator......I see here a serious lack of integrity and a coward....see the below excerpt.....Yes Fabricator your right it will not be shown to be completely worthless....I have always found in my life smart people do not have to try to impress others it comes out all by itself and respect follows.....Bruce Adam nice to have met you peace

"it is obvious he is trying to build something that will not be shown to be completely worthless on a greatly respected forum with some of the most respected names in small wind from all over the planet."
See below .....yes I am actually back to

fabricator
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« Thread Started Yesterday at 7:20am »   

[Modify] [Delete]
Hello Tony, why did you start this board? Was it to try to counter the negative things posted about your scam on fieldlines?
Advice to anyone interested in wind power, go to fieldlines.com and actually learn about what can and cannot be done with a re-purposed delco type alternator.
You certainly will learn nothing here the owner of this site is a scammer, he was selling a re-purposed delco on ebay before it was perfected, the one he has now will supposedly make 123 watts at 150 rpm cut in, which is absolutely pathetic.
He has promised a member on fieldlines to have his delco in the mail for almost every day for about six weeks, it is obvious he is trying to build something that will not be shown to be completely worthless on a greatly respected forum with some of the most respected names in small wind from all over the planet.
Save your money folks, don't fall for this snake oil sales mans scam.

Read more: http://hurricanewindpower.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=6#ixzz1z9emYYhx

[Watt]

You mean we aren't supposed to be strapping up turbine to our house at 30 feet? Really

Are you asking or agreeing? 

[breezyears]

SF,
 Please get Chris's geni up with those nice blades on it. It would be nice to see some results.
  This has been a painful few weeks.
 Im sure that when you have it flying, and making some power all will be good.

[hurricanewind]

Yes 30 feet was sarcasm....steadfast has been refunded and you guys put Chris's generator up.....no need to test it though....well I will save the sarcasm
I have done my best to be candid and honest with you guys  here.....I wanted an objective test......I read post after post of the  self righteous telling what the unit will put out before it goes on the tower...Whats the point

Peace

[Watt]

Well then, that was easy for you and a disappointment for Steadfast. 

As far as " what's the point? " I would think you would know after reading your previous comments.  Best of luck to you and your adventures. 

Too bad....

Yes 30 feet was sarcasm....steadfast has been refunded and you guys put Chris's generator up.....no need to test it though....well I will save the sarcasm
I have done my best to be candid and honest with you guys  here.....I wanted an objective test......I read post after post of the  self righteous telling what the unit will put out before it goes on the tower...Whats the point

Peace

[Frank S]

 I am of the opinion that this thread is becoming more of a test of who can write the most more than a test of a pair of Genies.
 One of the reasons everyone even SF has called his site a poor wind site is 1 he is in a low wind area 2 to compound this is the trees.
 topography created wind turbulence will disrupt pure laminar flow of wind for great distances. a stand of trees will effect the wind up to 4 times their height in the direct vicinity  and up to 20 times their height vertically 2 to 3 times that distance down stream
 Where SF is going to fly his genie we can clearly see by his numerous photos that his trees are 2/3rds to 4/5ths the height of his tower this alone will vastly reduce the output of any genie flown there. Erecting a tower of 50 ,60 or 70 feet in height is not even an option that is on the table for him. He  knows this and all here who have tried to help him from a safety stand point of how to erect and secure his tower have done so because they/ we know that even though the laminar flow  and stable velocities of the wind is poor. eddies created by structures and obstructions can cause a wind of 7ms to briefly develop swirling vortexes of 1.5 times ambient the effects can be the exact opposite as well creating negative pressures equal to or greater than the ambient wind speed.
   Hugh  would be probably one of the foremost authorities in that area
 also here is a brief by Peter Stuart that compiles a short synopsis of topography obstructions, not fully the fully detailed study   http://www.bwea.com/pdf/trees/RES.pdf

[Steadfast]

You mean we aren't supposed to be strapping up turbine to our house at 30 feet? Really

Hey now....
That was my newby.. boneheaded... mistake, not Tonys.
I own THAT classic epic failure with pride...

You guys warned me.... but I wouldn't listen...  cause I was to busy disen... disen....
(When's the last time you heard that reference )
He he he... I kill me...

[Steadfast]

Btw... wisdom is found in a multitude of counsellors...
those who get offended and leave, only end up robbing themselves as well as others.

Hang in there tony... we all have much to offer and to learn...

If fab said junk like that on my forum... I would just laugh and push the "ban" button.

Btw... Fab maybe a social moron... but he is also a brilliant structural Einstein who genuinly cares about the safety of others.
.
.

[Steadfast]

steadfast has been refunded and you guys put Chris's generator up.....no need to test it though....
Peace

Wait… WHAT?? 

Tony,
Did you just say, I am getting a refund? 

I told you…
I don't want a refund, I want a PMA…

Before I say ANYTHING ELSE,
please make this clear to me.

Am I getting,
A.   a refund check
B.   a PMA
C.   both a refund check and a PMA
.
.
.

[hurricanewind]

Your money is in your paypal account......have a good day....I am sure the self important  greatest minds on the planet can conquer this low wind 30 foot tower with trees all around it issue with an axial PMA better than a big dummy like me with a "redelco". I would hate to stand in the way of progress.....

[Steadfast]

I just received this email from Paypal:
“Wind Turbine Technologies just sent you a full refund of $261.79 USD for your purchase”

And an email from Tony stating:
“you have a nice PMA donated and I have other customers who really want that PMA for something other than Board fodder.....”

I wrote him back:
“What does ‘you have a nice PMA donated and I have other customers who really want that PMA' mean?”

He clarified:
“It means Chris has donated you a PMA and I have a backlog to clear.....Some for people in third world countries who need to get power ASAP...I have spent to much time worrying about my reputation among a group of people whom many are quite frankly not worthy of caring about...At the end of the day this thread will end up that I ripped you off and I find it easier to return your money so highly moral and righteous people such a Chris do not have to defend you....I was familiar with the guy before here from you  tube and know his agenda...I just don't need the stress honestly of playing a card game against a stacked deck of people who want to use terms such as redelco....”

Wow, What can I say besides “Thank you Tony”
Thank you for wasting my money and my time building a set up for YOUR PMA… Had Chris and Dave not stepped up, (a total surprise to me)  I would have wasted thousands of dollars on my set up because of YOUR lack of professionalism.  Thank you for stringing me along for 3 months just to pull out because YOU have a Rice Paper Thin Skin. Thank you for defining YOURSELF clearly for the rest of the RE world to see.

I am very angry with you Tony. 
I have been kind and honorable with you, and patient beyond reason.

But I am also a Steadfast Christian man of honor and integrity… and I forgive you…
Which also means, (beyond all worldly rationality) I will not pursue you, nor slander you or your products in anyway.
you have done that well enough all by yourself.

Finally, and I trully mean this.
May God bless you, and help you grow, so that you can prosper…
I will be praying for you and yours.

Ps. Please don't email me, coment on this thread, or call me again… 
.
.
.

Now, to go calm down and regroup,
so that I can get clearity enough to adapt and overcome this setback!
.
.
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[ChrisOlson]

Steadfast, it appears that Tony gave me a line on the phone and he has no intentions of "cleaning up his act" and fully intends to keep selling ReDelcos that are nothing more than rebranded Presto or Wind Blew units.  The reason is because there's all kinds of people on eBay that will buy them because they don't know any better.  Hopefully, every newbie that wants one finds this thread and learns the real truth before they click "Add to Cart".

May as well get your turbine flying.  You got the tower now and got that figured out.  It IS a little disappointing that we're not going to be able to show what a real turbine does in comparison to a high-resistance Delco with bent aluminum blades.  But you got a turbine and you'll have fun with it, and you learned a lot.  The first time it spins up it'll be all worth it.

Frankly, it appears we got "took" by one of the slickest "operators" I've seen yet, and this is his method of getting out of a direct comparison.

He told me what the ReDelco has in it - it's nothing but a Wind Blew in a red case.  Freaking 10SI with a claw rotor with a donut mag and a 20 AWG stator, for pete's sake.  There's a whole bunch of people here that can tell you EXACTLY how it would perform.

Tony told me on the phone that he spent hours doing a whole bunch of lathe work to get the air gap "right".  I don't know what the deal is with that.  But I think you got the best end of the deal, getting your money back.  If you still want to fly the LBird you can buy a Blue Delco instead from Wind Blue.  It's the same thing.
--
Chris

[Steadfast]

Well,
Tony took his ball and ran home, and effectively destroyed the LBird Project.     
What a coward... It appears the man doesn't even have faith in his own products!
Otherwise he would have "KNOWN it would work" and would have boldly sent it not careing
what we thought... the result would have been the results.

whatever, It is done now,
and I have to make some decisions and I would like your input.

My first option is this:
Scrap the LBird and FLY THE HBird:
Practically,
it would be better to sell off my smoking beautiful LBird frame and matching groovy blades and various parts. Take the profits and buy a solar panel which I can permanently hook up on the roof of my shed to act as back up for the turbine.

This would allow me to also permanently install my existing two 140 watt solar panels on the roof of my house, run the lines down to a new outlet in my kitchen and hook up my Solar power plant (that I have just sitting in the house) to power my fridge (taking my fridge off the grid) and start saving some money on my power bill. I have been waiting to do this anyway, until I could find out if a turbine alone could power my shed batteries over a weeks time.

My second option is this:
Push through:
Enlist your help to Find and buy another small 10-15 pound generator (like a treadmill motor or something) keep the LBird project alive for the sake of this string and have a “back up” Bird in the end.

Or My Third option is this: 
Do something else I have not considered trying, that you guys may know about.

I don't know… I am pretty pissed and disappointed right now….

[DamonHD]

SF: I'm sorry about the way things are panning out, but as suggested before it's not totally astonishing and it may well be for the best.

I'm a big fan of solar, but it would be a shame for all your hard-leaned wind knowledge to go to waste too...

Rgds

Damon

[Steadfast]

Does anyone have a small experimental axial generator (10-15 pounds) I can buy?
Or
The plans to make one...
I still have those otherpower magnents 

[Bruce S]

SF;
Let me be the first to ask why you have those real nice PVs in the house?
Get'em back outside pointing at the sun (correctly) .
Seeing how this thread is going down hill fast, I may lock this one, so you can start a new one when you get to option #3.
I'm not sure why you stopped working on raising the Hbird; you've had it for awhile now and you could've already had numbers from it, BUT that's for the other thread.
YOU I'll let fume for a bit since it is/was your time and ARSE we were harping on, too, but if I see this turning into a I-TOLD-YOU-SO thread, I'll lock it quick.

Beside we're having a beer fest here at work and I really don't want to read all those posts 
YES>> BEER is the breakfast of Champions!!! (goes good with cheerios too)

Pray for rain out in Colorado!
Bruce S

[Steadfast]

Maybe, I can take a long weekend, drive up to one of your homes,
and make an experimental small axial flux generator for the LBird with one of you guys who already has the shop decked out to do it right?

[Steadfast]

I'm not sure why you stopped working on raising the Hbird; you've had it for awhile now and you could've already had numbers from it, BUT that's for the other thread.
Bruce S

I have not stopped working on it... still need to get that new tower up!
I have a job, so... i gotta wait for the weekend to continue...
There are more progress photos comming on Saturday

[DamonHD]

Good man.

Rgds

Damon