Looking for opinions on the use of a 3 stage hot water heater for a wind turbine

[Ed Pap]

Hello,
I am new to this site, I have done alot of reading in the last few days and I have come to the conclusion, there are alot of smart people on here.

My question is, would a water heater that changed resistance in 3 stages, with adjustable trip points by the voltage output of the turbine be of any value in the market place.

I have built a 24V DC water heater. It will draw (in 3 stages) ruff numbers 8 amps - 16 amps - 30 amps. all "trip in" and "trip out" points are adjustable.

Thanks Ed

[ghurd]

No, not really.

As Tom says, there are a lot of ways to skin a cat.
I though of a dozen DIY ways before I finished reading the post.
Plenty of commercial (and less commercial) ways already available.
G-

[Ed Pap]

ghurd thanks so much for posting.

 I have been working on this project for a while now. I have spent countless hours searching the web looking for a water heater that would work with a wind turbine without over loading it at slow wind and still use the energy at high wind speeds. I have not found anything out there.

can you direct me to some of the commercial heaters?

I want to say that I am not looking for a "get rich quick" deal. I have been a mechanic for 30 plus years the last 7 I have run my own repair shop fixing farm and construction equipment. I am looking to move in another direction my body is giving out on me. I started two years ago to be a dealer for Urban Green Energy turbines. I have a 600 watt up on my shop since last November. unfortunately the turbine doesn't work. I built this water heater to heat my shop with the turbine. the heater works great (using a power supply). I filed a provisional patent on the heater last august. now I am at the point where I have to decide if the Patent is worth putting the money into it. My thought is I could retire from pulling wrenches and build water heaters.

Thank you for any information you might have Ed   

[ghurd]

My reply is in 3 parts.

Answer to what I thought you were asking:

I can point you toward a 2 stage heater.
It heats air instead of water.  It is not 1000W (many single stage units have been built over 1000W).  12V instead of 24V.  Adding a 3rd stage is no problem.  All the concepts are the same.
Woof's "2-stage Ghurd Super Controller",
http://fieldlines.com/board/index.php/topic,129731.0.html


I believe you may have a bit of misunderstanding about the electrical aspects.
A dump load controller that operates in PWM can dump 8A or 16A into a '30A heater'.
And it can dump 1A or 3.141592654A or 26.666A into a '30A heater'.
Commercial examples would be the Xantrex C40 or MorningStar TS-45 or TS-60.

Hugh's site had a couple designs.  One with relays, one with triacs, maybe more.  It's late, I am tired, I looked but didn't find them quickly, but pretty sure they are there somewhere!
http://www.scoraigwind.com/

=

Answer to what you may be asking:

The 24V designation made me think it had a battery.

You said "I have spent countless hours searching the web looking for a water heater that would work with a wind turbine without over loading it at slow wind and still use the energy at high wind speeds".
Maybe you are talking about a 'No Battery' system?
If that was your experience with your system that had a battery, and had those issues, then the problem was a crappy controller (which I bet s shiny new dime had a relay).

If there is NO battery, then there is no reason to limit it to 24V.
Probably be better off designating it, say, 24V to 60V (or 90V?).  That type of configuration would allow far better use of the high winds.
Again, there are many ways to do that too.  Anything from a small bank of op amps, to STAMP or PIC programable ICs, to ICs that allow conversion of on parameter to another (possibly RPM to voltage?), to hacking a $3 6-LED Harbor Freight alternator tester, to about a 1000 other things.

=

I very seriously doubt your Provision Application would be worth the cost of attempting to get a Patent.  I doubt there is anything in it not obvious to someone in the field.
The cost of a defendable patent is not cheap.  The market is limited.  Bad investment to return ratio.

I am not clear on "I could retire from pulling wrenches and build water heaters."
Meaning build the control circuits, the heating elements, or the entire assembly with the tank?
Might be a market for it, but I doubt it would be worth thowing money at (genuine) patent attorneys.
Certainly not enough market to sell your impact wrench on ebay.

Curious about the public disclosure status.

This is like pin the tail on the donkey.
We know you THINK you have something that looks like it might be a donkey.  That's all we know.
Hard to accurately pin the tail on the donkey when we don't know if there is actually any donkey involved.
(if you know what I mean)

There are more than a few members here with patents.
They may speak up if there was more info to work with.
G-

[Ed Pap]

You are right I have very little understanding of the "wind power world' I am just a simple diesel mechanic looking for a way to make a living not pulling 250 LBS of torque every day. I believe that the alternative energy market is the place to be in the future. 

I would prefer to lay out my hole system to you guys and then you could tell me I am crazy or I might have a good idea. but with all the legal stuff (that I know very little about) I am told that it could hurt me in the long run if  some how this is a good idea. it all seems pretty silly to me.

I guess I will have to find out for myself if i am the donkey or the jackass.

Thanks Ed

[ChrisOlson]

I have built a 24V DC water heater. It will draw (in 3 stages) ruff numbers 8 amps - 16 amps - 30 amps. all "trip in" and "trip out" points are adjustable.

30 amps is less than 900 watts and that might work for a very small system.  My auxiliary loading system comes in stages to 2.4 kW.  But I don't use DC power to do it because the size of the cables needed to transmit 2.4 kW of 24 volt DC power 50 feet would be big, and then you'd only get about 75% of it to the load unless you dropped big money on the copper.

Transmitting 240 volt AC power that 50 feet only requires 10 amps, which can be carried with 16 AWG Type NM wire.

It's hard and expensive enough to efficiently get power from wind turbines and solar arrays to the batteries, much less wasting more of it running DC resistive loads.

The bigger the system gets, the more impracticable transmitting low voltage DC power to resistive loads gets.
--
Chris

[Ed Pap]

Thanks Gary and Chris,

this really isn't what i wanted to hear, but it is what i needed to hear. I guess I will go to bed and try something different tomorrow.

Ed 

[TomW]

Thanks Gary and Chris,

this really isn't what i wanted to hear, but it is what i needed to hear. I guess I will go to bed and try something different tomorrow.

Ed 

Ed;


It seems that you might be able to come up with a design and simply publish it to the world to prevent others from patenting your design. If you want to profit from the design patent then you have a minefield of both applying for and enforcing a patent.

However, simply building a system and marketing it would not really require a patent on your part as long as you don't infringe someone's patent.  It is such a niche market that you probably won't  make a huge amount selling this.

But if you just want to keep busy after retirement it might be a perfect match.

Glen sells lots of his controllers and has no patent I am aware of.

Lots of ways to approach this.

Good luck however you decide to go.

Tom

[ChrisOlson]

It is such a niche market that you probably won't  make a huge amount selling this.

Tom has a good point there, Ed.  If you have a system that can actually heat water instead of being just a dump load I suspect there's a few folks who would be interested in buying one.  Most folks I know "roll their own".  But low resistance DC water heating elements for 24 volt power are expensive (as compared to high resistance AC ones) and it can be a daunting task for a newbie to set up a system that works.

If there was a turn-key DC water heating/voltage controlling system where all it needs is to hook up water pipes and the wiring, and it actually works, I know back in the day when I was attempting to get DC water heating to work I probably would've bought one.  But there's not a lot of people that do that.  The trouble I ran into with it, that made it not practical for me, was that it's hard to get 2,000+ watts of low voltage DC heating power in a 55 gallon water heat tank because those elements heat wires as good as they do water.  If you can come up with as system that's efficient, there might be a market for it.  But probably not a big enough market to justify any patents on it.
--
Chris

[Ed Pap]

I have a working set up now. at 26.4V it will make 1056W. I look at it like it is a automatic transmission that shifts according to how much power (voltage) you have to work with. it works that I am sure of.
 It could be set up to make what ever you want by changing the size of the elements. to make a 1500w or bigger setup I would need to increase the rating on the relays or go with mosfets or something bigger to handle the amperage.

I have it set up with volt and amp meters to read what you are making. I didn't really shop price for all the parts but i think I have less than $200 into it. I could sell the controller and a element and the end user could install it in their own water heater or make complete heater ready to install. my thought was it would work good as "pre heater" to install inline before your domestic hot water tank.

I know the market would be small but with the internet today you can reach so many more people.

I have to say i went to bed last night pretty discouraged but I am just not going to give up on this. this hole patent thing is the problem for me now I just don't know if it will be worth the money or if it is really necessary.

I really appreciate all your input on this and if any body has problems with tractors or any kind of equipment please let me know i am sure I can help (that stuff I know).

Thanks Ed 

[Rover]

If you can publicly document , and you haven't already infringed on someone elses patent (hard to know), I say go for it without one.

A Patent would come in handy if you start making hundred of units and someone does come out with a copy. But then...

1) You have to know about the copy.
2) You will have to enforce the patent, go after them legally, you will need deep pockets.

I am on a patent, different field (medical). We know there are infingers of the patent... we wil probably do nothing because of the cost and politics involved

[SparWeb]

.... enforce the patent, go after them legally, you will need deep pockets.

Not always.  If you figure out that the "infringer" is much smaller than you, the "infringee", then often just the threat of legal action can make them turn around.
It's a big risk for both sides.  A startling number of patent defense lawsuits fail, not because the patent wasn't infringed, but because the original patent "wasn't defendable"!

In the internet age, what the hell are patents for anyway?  Really?  In how many countries can you establish your patent (if its successful) before someone in some other country corners the market with a copy before your guys in suits arrive?
Intellectual property rights are in a bit of a culture war right now.

Sorry Ed:  this was off-topic.

I like collecting info about such controllers (I don't know when they'll come in handy!)  Have you looked at the heater control device published by forum member "MethanolCat"?

[ghurd]

Glen sells lots of his controllers and has no patent I am aware of.

He has no patent that I am aware of either!
Why doesn't he have a patenet?
Years ago, he looked into it very seriously for another project.
Between all the crapola, mostly research at the start, looking at far into 4 figures.
Writing something defendable, and all the crapola that goes into that, looking at mid 5 figures.
Then you have a patent.

Maybe China flat out steals it.  It happens many times a day.
For mid 6 or 7 figures, maybe you can stop Xiang Qing from importing it, unless he changes his name to Bob Smith on the sticker, or changes his name and sells it on ebay.

Maybe somebody finds a white paper that describes the concept 'Intellectually'.
If someone 'in the field' can whip up a similar diagram in a day, or week, or 2, then the patent is void.

I sold a lot of controllers.
I sold a lot of controllers because they are cheap and they work well.
It went public about 4 years ago.
Lets say I sold 1000 a year (I certainly did NOT sell that many in total in all 4 years combined), 4,000 total.
Say $50K total (pipe dream) for something enforceable.
That's 12.50 each.
$12.50 is what they cost for the 1st 3 and a half years I sold them.
If I expected to sell 1000 a year, it would double the cost of the unit, even when spread out over 4 years.
How many would have sold it they cost twice as much?
How many would have sold if they cost twice as much, plus what the interest to pay on a $50K loan?

If "Real Name Brand" flat out steals it, who's pockets are deeper?

If someone like say those thieves at Bridgestone were to flat out steal something intellectual from someone like say ghurd,
and even if ghurd had spent all that $ on a genuinely enforceable patent,
would Ghurd realistically be able to do anything about it?
He would not.

[DamonHD]

I've been in the position as a company founder tasked by investors with patenting our stuff, at least defensively, and I basically come to the same conclusions as GHurd MegaCorp Inc.

Rgds

Damon

[Ed Pap]

I just wanted to let everyone know, today i mailed my patent application. I wrote it myself so i just have the filling fee in to it. I will be shocked if I am granted the patent but I had to try. The USPTO  inventors assistance office was very helpful they recommended a book "Patent it yourself " by David Pressman. It was a very helpful book.

I know how you guys feel about patents but at least for now in the short term I have a "patent pending" stamp on the idea.

Thanks for all your input Ed

[DamonHD]

Well done for trying: at worst they say no and you lost the filing fee but gained an an education!

I hope you get it.

Rgds

Damon

[DanG]

Or they give you clues how to reverse-engineer your design to evade previous patents they may note in the exploration section...

[Ed Pap]

Hello,

My Patent application was just published by the USPTO office. now that it is public and anyone could find it on their site I thought I would give you guys the link to it. maybe you guys could look it over and give me your thoughts. I am still wondering if I am the donkey or the jackass

http://appft1.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PG01&p=1&u=/netahtml/PTO/srchnum.html&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=20120048844.PGNR.&OS=DN/20120048844&RS=DN/20120048844

Sparweb I would be honored if you put this in your collection. to everyone else who posted on this thread please feel free to make as many heaters as you would like.

I know I have a long way to go before I will know if it is ever granted. but I must say it has been fun !

Thanks Ed

[DamonHD]

Surely this will fail on the basis of prior art, ie there's lots of graduated loads out there for RE systems, one way or another?  I must go and read your claims properly!

Rgds

Damon

[ChrisOlson]

Just about every big name charge controller already has this built in, except in infinite stages.  It's called PWM Diversion.
--
Chris

[Ed Pap]

Just about every big name charge controller already has this built in, except in infinite stages.  It's called PWM Diversion.
--
Chris

working with my turbine I have realized this fact. my thought is it might be useful in a wind/solar DC battery system as a dump load or a way to make heat gradually based on the voltage in the system. I know that it is not really worth anything.

Surely this will fail on the basis of prior art, ie there's lots of graduated loads out there for RE systems, one way or another?  I must go and read your claims properly!

Rgds

Damon

I know that my claims need work, my hope was that the USPTO would help me write them better. I was told that they might do this.

Thanks Ed     

[rain1224]

I hope you will success!