Generator identification and system solutions.

[ahatours]

My name is Neil. I purchased an off the grid property which included a derelict energy system. I need help determining what kind of wind generator I have and how many watts it is. I have looked everywhere and can't find one that looks like mine, similar yes but not the same. I believe it's a Viking Aircharger, and made after the 1950's, but no idea about power output, I'm guessing 800w or more. I have a multimeter, but it only goes to 10amps, I was afraid to kill it.

I was told the diode needs to be replaced. It was connected to a bank of 33 Saft brand batteries, 2v I'm guessing, maybe someone can tell by the pictures and the way they connect to each other. Either way I doubt they are any good, especially considering the condition of the 12 batteries that were connected to the pv panels. You can see them in the pictures, they are Varta 240 ah 6v. I replaced them with 4 interstate 232 ah 6v.

I need advice on a total system rebuild. My power needs are minimal, but must include a well pump (shurflo) for a water storage tank and items to  complement a future solar water heating installation. Cost is a factor, concentrating on the wind generator and using a water heater element for the diversion load.

Any help is appreciated. Thanks.

[ahatours]

My pics are too large. I'll repost tomorrow. If someone replies with an email, I can send pics to them.

[Bruce S]

My pics are too large. I'll repost tomorrow. If someone replies with an email, I can send pics to them.

Yep, we try to keep the posting size down where people who are still on dialup don't have to worry about the posts locking them up.
IF you send the pics to my email address in my profile, can link then into here.
Normally for windows XP and newer system you can bring the pics up and tell them to resize for web, Linux GIMP will work perfectly, MAC, there's way too many for me to list, but the built in one is okay too.
I'm curious about the 33 saft batteries, most of those are hardy buggers and can be brought back to live relatively easy.

Cheers;
Bruce S

[ahatours]

I've managed to resize the photos on my phone. Hopefully this works.

[birdhouse]

wow-   where to start.  if you can revive those batteries, they would be a huge score.  someone paid a LOT of money for that bank at some point.  33 is a funky number!  2v cells would give you 66v or 33v...  not standard.  maybe they were old and tired when installed at your place and additional cells were added just to get to standard volatges???  have you put a DMM on the battery posts?  that would be a start. 

i know you said your on a budget, as many here are, but to be offgrid isn't cheap.  my advice on that would be to buy things once, and pay the extra upfront, rather than replacing as you grow. 

outback makes killer inverters at around 2K.  but they're worth it.  morningstar makes great charge controllers.  sunelec.com has some good panel pricing, but are hard to deal with.  these are just some of MY favorite brands/companies.  you may differ.

that turbine looks pretty beat!  not to say it couldn't be rebuilt.  it may be easier to build a turbine from scratch to get juice flowing, then go for the rebuild. 

looks like you'll be burning a lot of petrol in a genset until you get things sorted!

adam

[SparWeb]

Hmmm.  I wonder if those battery cells are rejects from something else, like an aircraft battery.  I picked up a few of those once, but never used them.  Your Saft's may already be on their 2nd incarnation, and at the end of it, already.

Weathered wood blade, rusty bucket brakes, worn wire insulation...  It's a total rebuild.  I'm plenty curious to see inside, but heck I'm just sitting in the bleachers.  I can cheer you on all I like, but you're doing all the work (and there's lots of it).

[birdhouse]

and then there's the dormer in the background house that looks like it needs siding...   

[fabricator]

I think that dormer was just added.

[jlt]

Those battery's could  be nicad block battery's at 1.5volts per cell for 48 volt set up.



 jlt

[electrondady1]

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CCYQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.wincharger.com%2Fgallery%2Frestored%2Findex.htm&ei=bZR9T-mjLISi8QTIxcT1DA&usg=AFQjCNG1DkTcmpqbLyAO2QoAWh2Kke6FsA

[ahatours]

What I can tell you is that the entire house is wired for 12v and the Saft batteries were connected to the main power box, so they are in a 12v configuration.

I believe all of this equipment came from railway systems, likely after it had already served 15-20yrs of use. The house was built in 1984 and has only a few pv panels from at least the early 90's or late 80's, the batteries would have arrived around the same time. I don't know anything about the wind generator, except it looks like a Viking Aircharger.

What would be the best method to get an accurate reading of the output from the wind generator?

[ahatours]

Electrondady1 - I've visited that site several times, the problem is none of those look exactly like mine, the governor system is totally different which is why I believe its an Aircharger not a Wincharger.

[fabricator]

Those battery's could  be nicad block battery's at 1.5volts per cell for 48 volt set up.



 jlt

I don't think there was such a thing as nicad batteries when that system was installed.

[Bruce S]

Can you get us a closer picture of the batteries?
I'll let other helps with the windcharger.
I'd like to focus on those lovely batteries.
Since you have batteries connected to the system, these can take a small back seat.
I'll be willing to bet they're 1.2Vdc each. At that with 11 of them you'll get 13.2 , which will closely match the 13.5 of the rectifier output of 13.5 :-)
IF they are indeed NiCADs then the worst thing for them is they are standing up!!
TomW has some large NiCDs and his are laying on their sides in a tin can so they can get full absorption.
WHEN you have the time and if it doesn't hurt your system, start removing the inter-connect from each bank. hen take a reading from each bank and come back with the voltages, let's see if they have any life left in them 
The windcharger!! I'd sure like to get my hands on it!! I'll bet it has a wind brake on the top!
Output is 3-phase from the looks of the pics. 

[ahatours]

Bruce - Now that I can resize images from my phone, I will gladly post pics of whatever you want to see.

I have only a smartphone to use, my generator died and I'm relying on two small PV panels (ARCO 25w and Siemans 75w) to charge the 4 Interstate batteries, so my laptop sits in its case for now. I upgraded the important lights to 12w led "bulbs" (60w of light output) so I'm ok for now.

I can easily disconnect the Saft battery banks to check them individually, they are not currently connected to the system, they were connected only to the wind generator and the diode no longer works.

I know the Saft's do have some life in them, even though they haven't recieved any power input from the wind generator whatsoever for at least 10yrs. They are connected to a 12v RV light independantly from the rest of the system and it works just fine. The system was all interconnected during that time, it is possible they received some power from the PV panels.

I'll have time this weekend, so I'll try and get some updates for you.

Any ideas on the best way to measure output of the wind generator?

[Flux]

Those from N America will be better able to identify the machine, but it looks to be a very close copy of a 32v Wincharger except for the additional blades in place of the fan governor.  I think I saw 30v on the rectifier which ties in well with a 32v system.

I am 95% sure it will be a dynamo ( dc generator with commutator) in that era. Looks to have been updated probably when the new batteries were added.. The only Wincharger to get over here was the little 200W 12v one but much of the construction is identical.

Flux

[SparWeb]

...Any ideas on the best way to measure output of the wind generator?

Raise the tower back up...   

+++
While I was typing, Flux posted about it being DC with a commutator.  I actually don't remenber if a Windcharger is DC, a PM generator, or if it needs a field current.  I expect you machine is the latter, but if it's DC then skip the part about phases, and the battery test will make it turn on its own.
+++

How about starting with continuity checks on the wires.  You'll get no power at all if the wires are broken.  Check also if they may be shorted out (resistance is "0").

Then measure the phase-to-phase resistance.  Unplug/disconnect the tower's wires, hold the rotor still (if you jiggle it the resistance reading will jump all over the place).  You also require a rather accurate meter, otherwise the measurements less than 5 ohms range can't be trusted.

If you don't have an accurate multi-meter, then get two cheap ones, as long as one can measure amps.  Take one or two of your good battery cells out of the shed, and hook them together in series with one phase at a time.  The rotor will jolt to one "notch" then stop and constant current will then flow.  Or if it's a DC motor then the rotor will turn and you have to watch out for the blades going around    Measure current with one meter and voltage with another meter simultaneously and report the resistance calculated with Ohm's law
Eg:  2.4 V / 1.2 A  = 2.0 ohms       or    12V / 6 A = 2.0 ohms

Repeat for the other 3 phases, to check that they are relatively similar or hopefully exactly the same.

[Bruce S]

Thanks, make sure and get a nice pic or send across the SAFT model and stuff, I couldn't zoom in enough to read the info off the front ones.
Breaking up the banks will also give everyone a good idea of the health of each bank.
I did a little offline searching based on size and my thinking is that those are possible in the 600Ahr range which would give you an easy 1800Ahr of one big bank!!! or if some are dying you will still have a good size.
Once the banks are seperate, next would be to begin breaking up the cells and measuring the cells, to see if any rae nearing death , which could kill the entire bank .

MY thoughts on the windgen is that since the rectifier shows AC input, you should set your meter on AC HV (600Vac) clip the lead across any two of those three wires hanging down and give it a spin by hand and look for ANY voltage,
IF you get ANYTHING. then we'll know there's hope.

That rectifier? did someone tell you it's bad? or is it broken in pieces? there are ways to test it. Knowing what the max output of the windgen is , will give you the needed info for getting the correct size. There ARE 3-phase rectifiers around that can be had that will work.
Can you remove the blades from this? until the unit is where you can keep it safe from high winds, it might be a good idea to short the 3 wires together or remove the blades.
From the looks at some point you'll need to remove the blades to get them ready for use , or replacement. The wooden ones keep CWF at the very least some Kilz for outdoors!!
With the blades off you can use a drill with a know RPM going steady so we can find out about the health of the windings and their voltages.

IN the meantime IF you need to, email the pics at full size to my email address in my profile.
I can easily resize them and add them to your post until your power situation is more stable.

Cheers;
Bruce S

[ahatours]

A little more info on what you see.

The AC rectifier was used to charge the bank(s) via a generator I believe. It was hooked up to both banks and has a 2 prong (no ground) wall plug attached to allow it to be plugged in. The other two (the fansteel and the black one) were not hooked up to anything at all, just hung up for storage I think.

I was told that only the diode didn't work, the generator runs and drains the bank, the rectifier is probably still ok. The blades are salvageable too I think with a little tlc. The speed governor also works well, we get high winds often and you can tell its controlling the speed

I do think that the wind generator does actually work, I believe my dad's friend tested it once. If you notice there is a light fixture attached to the leads near the  top of the tower, I'll put in a bulb and see what happens, I have 12v and AC bulbs....
I'm also quite positive that the diversion load might have been a small, decorative lamp post installed on the corner of my driveway 30ft from the tower. There is no other reason for it to be there and no switch to control it...next step is to dig around and follow the power cable. Truth be told I've never checked...it could be just a decoration and may have been only attached to the house power.

As I said, the Saft bank was set up as a secondary system, (years after the PV system was installed) and integrated with the PV system which is 12v, with no fancy inverters or even a charge controller ( I added a 7amp controller for the PV panels myself ) so whatever configuration was used, it had to be 12v output....the whole house is wired as 12v connected to a simple panel.

Sparweb - not sure if that was just a joke, but it's funny, my tower is very low to the ground...maybe 15ft to top of generator (not counting blades). This was an old farm property on a mountain (mini Ontario mountain) and they did wind sock tests to find the best spot and height, believe me it's a good spot!

As old and mistreated as it appears, the blades turn in the slightest breeze. I'm also lucky that wire twisting is a non-issue, I back onto a hillside with thick forest so wind only hits in a 180 to 220 degree zone.
 
Thanks to everyone for the help.

[ghurd]

I was told that only the diode didn't work, the generator runs and drains the bank, the rectifier is probably still ok.

In the simplest terms: A diode is a rectifier.  A rectifier is a diode.

Cool machine!
G-

[Flux]

I assumed the rectifier in the pictures was a separate charging means. If as I suspect the machine has a dynamo ( dc generator) it would have had some form of cut out to prevent reverse current. If this gave trouble it could well have been replaced by a blocking diode and this is likely the one being referred to. If that failed the battery would motor the dynamo and in low winds you would have an electric fan.

I see a lot of leads hanging down from the front of the generator so I doubt that anything will get thouugh the slip rings to the light fitting at present.  Have you had a look at www.wincharger.com  I suspect the majority of the information will help, it looks as though you have a different speed control but I suspect the dynamo is identical or a near copy.
Flux

[tanner0441]

Hi

Looking at the wires coming from the unit I see 4, could it be 2 armature and 2 for the field winding, It could be single phase.  The voltages and currents on the labels are confusing the Howard and Gould unit looks like 3.0 volts and 8.8 amps.  The other unit the voltage looks like 110 to 220 AC and 11.5 DC.  It also seems to house a selenium rectifier, which by its age is of dubious condition. I pasted the pics into PSP and did a high pass sharpen to try to read them.

I would think get it down and look inside is the way to go, because so far it is all what it could be, not what it is, and if as Flux says about slip rings I think the condition of the rings and brushes would need attention and if there is anything left of the springs.

Brian

[ahatours]

For some reason, as forum members were speculating as to the battery type, I continually forgot to mention that I was aware of what type of batteries the Saft bank was comprised of.

I took readings of all 33 batteries and found 6 or 8 that are reading .6v - .8v the rest were all reading 1.25v. I'm going to remove the bad ones and see what happens. I'm guessing I should get a hydrometer and some distilled water. You can see where the original bank voltage is written on the wall.

I'm going to check out the single phase notion and see what happens.

[fabricator]

Nickel Iron batteries, that's a new twist.

[Bruce S]

FAB;
Actually they're Ni-Cd  . big ones too!! 240 and 160 usually stand for the Ahr for each battery.
the NIFE is a naming thingy from SAFT, I think they rated them at 5hr instead of the normal 20hr , though.
These are gonna be heavy too ~25lb each 

ahatpours;
The ones that read 1.25 are okay and in good shape if they have been sitting and still read 1.25V, however the ones that read 0.6 might be in trouble.
If you have a small PV <5w @12V attach it to one of these at time and leave it there in good sun for couple hours. Remove the panel and read voltage, if it jumped up then a good long constant current charge should bring them back have something that will charge them at a high rate C/10 or C/5 is okay to try as rescue them , don't leave them alone ! IF using a 12V 5W PV.

DO ONE at a time!! there is the very real possibility that anyone these could go into reversal.
IF there are any that's reading (0), leave it until the very last.

I like using PVs as they seem to work out better for rescuing NiCds.
I could not tell from the pics> BUT as you rebuild these banks try to keep the 160 together and the 240 together.
Better balance .
NICE set of batteries!!
When you get the banks built, each bank should stay with 11 cells , this makes them look like the correct voltage to inverters (11x1.25=13.75)
IF you're going to be using a dump load, set the dump at 15.20 this will have them 90% full and will keep the banks from venting. 
ONCE you have a complete bank and have a charger (PVs or something with near constant current try having it charge at C15) let it charge until the bank read 14.1 then back it off then let it settle/cool, you'll then have a fairly balanced bank.

[ahatours]

Bruce - once this is sorted out, regardless of how many good batteries I end up with, I only have 9 240 the rest are all 160. The system was set up with 2 160's on the end of the bank of 9 240's. How important is it to match #'s?

[Bruce S]

That's hard to say....
Conventionally you shouldn't mix the Ahr sizes, but these have two things going for them.
1) they're NiCds and they can thrive on small abuses.
2) they're old, so mixing them may not be that big of a deal.
If they were mine, and I was able to get them ALL back holding that all important voltage, I'd be mixing the 9 into banks of all three banks. MY BANK would be 160|160|240|160|160|240|160|160|240|160|160. for a total of 3 banks, but that's me 
Will only ever get the max of 160Ahr even out of the 240s fully charged, but I'd be okay with that.
BTW: Where are you located? Temp will affect these down in the 32F range.

BUT first I'd get a bank up and on a 12V PV and get them charged, if you can.
Would not be a good idea to connect it to your current bank though, unless you really have to.

[ahatours]

I have disconnected the batteries and found a total of 11 that are reading low.
1-@0.00
2-@0.30
3-@0.60
3-@0.80
2-@1.00
There is a 12th that's a little low - 1.13, but so far that means I'll have 2 decent banks to work with.

I'm going to buy a small 5w pv panel to use for the others and see what happens.

The fluid levels are all good, even in the 0.00 cell. I had 2 that read 1.32v.

I am in Mattawa, ON 3.5hrs North of Toronto, so I do see some cold up here.

[tanner0441]

Hi

I would still bet on nickle iron for those batteries, Ni nickle Fe iron as in chemistry. I have never seen nicad batteries with plugs in the top to maintain the electrolyte level, also they are weeping and that looks like the crap you get round the tops of nife cells, it will be potassium hydroxide, they will work with sodium hydroxide (caustic soda) but it is not recommended.

The age of that system tends to exclude nicad, if they are nife they are very robust and I have managed to rinse out ex government batteries and refill them with new electrolyte.  I will assume that there is a steel case under the plastic outer skin.
I grabbed the following from Wikipedia

The nickel–iron battery (Ni Fe battery) is a storage battery having a nickel(III) oxide-hydroxide cathode and an iron anode, with an electrolyte of potassium hydroxide. The active materials are held in nickel-plated steel tubes or perforated pockets. It is a very robust battery which is tolerant of abuse, (overcharge, overdischarge, and short-circuiting) and can have very long life even if so treated. It is often used in backup situations where it can be continuously charged and can last for more than 20 years. Due to its low specific energy, poor charge retention, and its high cost of manufacture, other types of rechargeable batteries have displaced the nickel–iron battery in most applications.
They are currently gaining popularity for off-the-grid applications where daily charging makes them an appropriate technology.
The ability of these batteries to survive frequent cycling is due to the low solubility of the reactants in the electrolyte. The formation of metallic iron during charge is slow because of the low solubility of the ferrous hydroxide. While the slow formation of iron crystals preserves the electrodes, it also limits the high rate performance: these cells charge slowly, and are only able to discharge slowly. Nickel–iron cells should not be charged from a constant voltage supply since they can be damaged by thermal runaway; the cell internal voltage drops as gassing begins, raising temperature, which increases current drawn and so further increases gassing and temperature.

There is a picture on the page of a battery that looks just like yours made by The Edison Battery Co.

Brian

[ahatours]

The 9 "240's" do say NIFE on them...

So I should try new electrolyte? As I said the levels are good, maybe I'll just try to charge them and see what happens.

After reading that wiki, I think I'll use that bank for a well pump, pressure pump and circulation pumps for solar water heat system as well as utility lighting.

I'll upgrade the pv system separately and use that exclusively for the home essentials.

That will make the best use of both banks and keep new batteries separate from old.

Now to see about that generator

[tanner0441]

Hi

I would try charging them first, maybe divert your solar to them for a while. The white powder that is on the outside when you get it wet will be bad for skin and eyes. I would also go on line and read up everything you can on looking after them, the old trucks I worked on not long after leaving school had lead acid and nife batteries one for starting and one for lights.

I don't know how to test the electrolyte so as I say read up on them, but if you can get them back to spec they are a good robust reliable battery but hellishly expensive.

I would be surprised if you don't get help from someone on here with them.

Brian.

[Bruce S]

Brian;
I based my findings of them being NiCd as they are very similar to the ones TomW has except TomWs are 3x higher in Ahrs and need to be side ways to keep a good charge on them.
This wiki shows some of the newer vented types. " http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nickel%E2%80%93cadmium_battery_vented_cell_type "
But they've been around in EU for along time. French Electric cars used them.
The better news ! both NiCd and NiFe can use the same electrolyte , except it is not normally a good idea to drain and refill the NiCds.

A really good way to find out would be to contact a SAFT rep up near his place. I've spoken to them before ( there's a rep close to St.L) and they are very helpful , which can be rare these days.
ahatours
I would look them up, to make sure of what you really have.
Both types will use potassium hydroxide, which like tanner0441 said will burn skin  .
They may even have a person close.
BTW>> the one that reads 0.00Vdc, I'd NOT connect that one to anything just yet, 0.00 is the point were NiCds can quickly go into cell reversal and IF these turn out to be NiCds then it can be a real problem.

[thirteen]

Any idea how old the system is? There might be a date of installation on the wall that might help.  I have always put a diagram in the switch box of how things were wired and when. There might be a date scratched on one of the batteries or even stamped on the wind geny or even the blades might have a stamped date on them.  Looks like you have your work cut out for you. Good luck with the batteries with time and patiance you should get some good use out of what you have.
Just an idea or two.