Author Topic: Heavy truck/automotive alternators  (Read 6869 times)

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dloefffler

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Heavy truck/automotive alternators
« on: April 18, 2012, 10:49:28 PM »
Given the variable pitch and Chris' transmission, is there a reason alternators are not now an alternative to building your own generator?

Dennis

ChrisOlson

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Re: Heavy truck/automotive alternators
« Reply #1 on: April 19, 2012, 12:53:43 AM »
I thought about trying a Leece-Neville 110 amp 24 volt.  But it requires 1,100 rpm for cut-in.  And it would require building an exciter, as well as a way to control the field.

Still an intriguing concept though.
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Janne

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Re: Heavy truck/automotive alternators
« Reply #2 on: April 19, 2012, 06:38:43 AM »
Hi,

The concept was quite popular in the old days of DIY windmills, 10-20 years ago. Found one well documented project, in foreign language but pictures are good.
http://users.skynet.be/Windmolens/

Nothing's as easy as drilling a hole in the wrong place

jlt

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Re: Heavy truck/automotive alternators
« Reply #3 on: April 19, 2012, 07:55:16 AM »
         I built one using a large truck alt. in 1977.It had 12ft blades, chain drive with 60 tooth main sprocket and 13 tooth on the alt. and a tip back furling.
         
          I also built a separate wind switch to energize    the field.It was a pendulum with a micro switch.mounted on a tower.

           It was a very noisy machine . and after 2 years of tweaking on the Dam thing. It blew up
while I was at work.The chain wore out and jumped off.

      The wife called me and said do U here that sound . and I said yes. She said what should she do.I said run,

             It threw a blade after  a 1/2 hour of running without a load.And then ripped the rest of the machine from the tower.  The one blade was found 300 feet away

            It did put out a lot of power . but only in high winds. glad it is gone.

         The machines I build now all have been trouble free. And all are direct drive with permanent mag's     

ghurd

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Re: Heavy truck/automotive alternators
« Reply #4 on: April 19, 2012, 09:58:11 PM »
Given the variable pitch...

The machines I build now all have been trouble free. And all are direct drive with permanent mag's     

Sounds like a lot of mechanical parts subject to wear and failure.
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ChrisOlson

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Re: Heavy truck/automotive alternators
« Reply #5 on: April 20, 2012, 01:00:42 AM »
With any machine, it's all about design.

Take the average automobile.  You could eliminate a lot of moving parts that are subject to wear and failure.  Like the doors.  There's a lot of moving parts in a typical car door.  Hinges, springs, latches, linkages.  Why not just eliminate all that?  Put solid panels on the side of the car, cut a hole in it, and crawl in thru the hole.  NASCAR has been using that concept for years.  It's simple and it works.

Or the engine in the car.  Why have all those moving parts in the valve train?  Why not just build it two-stroke with ported cylinders and eliminate camshafts and drives, tappets, pushrods/rockers, valves and springs.  Some engines have been using that concept for years.  It's simple and it works.

I could go on, from the suspension to the heater controls.

When you get done eliminating all the moving parts possible, how well is the unit going to perform day in and day out?

It's all about design.  Some people can design something with few moving parts and it won't last.  A skilled engineer can design a complicated machine with lots of moving parts and it will be as reliable as the sun rising and setting.
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avion23

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Re: Heavy truck/automotive alternators
« Reply #6 on: April 20, 2012, 07:34:00 AM »
Quote
A skilled engineer can design a complicated machine with lots of moving parts and it will be as reliable as the sun rising and setting.
Not in general. A skilled engineer will avoid such a design.

You should read https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam%27s_razor
or in layman's terms https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KISS_principle
This is consistent with my personal experience - and jlt just told basically the same story.

ChrisOlson

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Re: Heavy truck/automotive alternators
« Reply #7 on: April 20, 2012, 08:51:47 AM »
Not in general. A skilled engineer will avoid such a design.

No, a skilled engineer never avoids any designs.  He or she employs the proper tools to arrive at a solution to the problem.

An example is my 3.2 meter turbine project.  I set out a goal to design and build a 10 foot turbine with ferrite magnets in the generator, capable of 3 kW output.  All the contemporary 10' homebrew turbine designs are good for 750-800 watts with maybe a few short spikes over 1 kW.  Nobody in the homebrew community, that I know of, had ever built an axial ferrite generator capable of more than 1,000 watts.  I decided to push the envelope to a design that develops three times the power, continuous, of the KISS homebrew turbine designs.

I achieved my design goal and the machine is flying today, and already has several thousand hours on it.  However, in order to achieve that goal, I had to throw the contemporary homebrew KISS method of building turbines out the window.

So, now back to jlt's statement - show me how to build a direct drive, 10 foot machine with ferrite magnets that will develop 2.5 kW continuous and handle spikes up to 4 kW.  During the execution of several ferrite magnet generator projects I had a lot of avid followers of the KISS Doctrine explain in great detail why what I'm doing won't work because it's too complicated.  I extended a challenge to Hugh Piggot and several other folks to match it with their design concept of "How It Should Be Done" using the KISS Doctrine.  To date, nobody has matched it, even with neo magnets.

After 19 years in the engineering profession I met a lot of engineers who are only capable of KISS because they can't think outside the box.  Those are not skilled engineers.
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Bruce S

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Re: Heavy truck/automotive alternators
« Reply #8 on: April 20, 2012, 08:56:18 AM »
In the electronic world there is this little Kirchoff's law.
However, going through M.E. classes I don't remember ever being told to avoid complex designs, but to embrace them, learn from them, and then once there's an understanding look for other ways to improve.

Bruce S
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Bruce S

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Re: Heavy truck/automotive alternators
« Reply #9 on: April 20, 2012, 08:58:39 AM »
Chris;
I got the "warning" new reply.
Nicely said  8).
Cheers
Bruce S
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jlt

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Re: Heavy truck/automotive alternators
« Reply #10 on: April 20, 2012, 11:10:56 AM »
My post was not to say any thing about Chris's machine. I think It is a brilliant machine.

       But it is not for the average builder.  Way too complicated. 
                                                                                                   Jlt

oztules

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Re: Heavy truck/automotive alternators
« Reply #11 on: April 20, 2012, 12:24:27 PM »
"
So, now back to jlt's statement - show me how to build a direct drive, 10 foot machine with ferrite magnets that will develop 2.5 kW continuous and handle spikes up to 4 kW.  "

Thats fairly simple....

I don't understand the challenge in this. A simple tap change on our AWP with I think less ferrite magnet than yours will do that.... for many weeks at a time in winter. It is now current limited to 2kw cont.

3kw or more  continuous would be no problem in the winter storms for it too, just a transformer tap change (called load matching to match the synchronous impedance of the alternator).... outside the box?  no just simple physics and simple engineering.

This was designed by one of those  kiss people .

"I had a lot of avid followers of the KISS Doctrine explain in great detail why what I'm doing won't work because it's too complicated. "
They didn't say it would not work. Any magnet passing a wire will do something. As I recall in a nut shell, they said the resources thrown at it were not utilised efficiently.... and they are right.

"After 19 years in the engineering profession I met a lot of engineers who are only capable of KISS because they can't think outside the box.  Those are not skilled engineers."
....... is derisory. 

Think about it. Your design hangs together with things you KNOW will fail mechanically (that you can fix yourself), and things that will DEFINITELY fail electrically (that you can't fix yourself).... regardless of your best intentions.... and the same result could have been achieved differently, as was explained by Danb, Hugh, Flux etc etc.

You chose not to listen, and did your own thing that worked. You say it is better. I like  it, but I don't think it is better than a the approach eluded to by Hugh.

If you can't get neos to kill the ferrites, then you must have very small neos. Their character is different, but your load matching device should take care of that. I have described elsewhere where my little unit did over 5kw without problem with rudimentary load matching Direct drive, low stator loss.... no mystery here.

You used the magnets and copper less efficiently than needed to be the case, and sped it up to compensate..... but at least you built it very nicely. Still very well done..... but....had I the need, it would be done differently. Currently I'm 450kwh in front after the last 4 months, I have no need for any more power.


It was an excellent project, and very well executed, but not the best use of resources as I see it.



.............oztules

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ChrisOlson

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Re: Heavy truck/automotive alternators
« Reply #12 on: April 20, 2012, 02:24:59 PM »
       But it is not for the average builder.  Way too complicated.                                                                                                   Jlt

It wasn't meant for the average builder.  It was done as a proof of concept to show that a very powerful high performance turbine can be built using ferrite magnets in an air core axial design.  Nor was it meant to make most efficient use of materials.  It was designed to show the more advanced turbine builder what you can do with an air core axial using readily available components, without having anything custom built.

If you get too hung up on other concepts like using a toroid core, aka Gordon Proven, or maybe using a radial core, aka AWP - you lose sight of what you're trying to accomplish and leave the realm of even advanced home builders.  Sure you can get better magnetic performance from other designs.  But when the magnets are cheaper than dirt, why bother?  This turbine was built using commonly available parts, sheet and tube steel, ferrite blocks that are commonly built and stocked.  And being an air core does not require winding a toroid core or finding or building specialized motor cores and/or laminations.  It was designed from the ground up to use a proven controller that can be purchased from a reliable company that has years of experience building RE equipment.

Hugh, oz, et al didn't see the Big Picture.  They tended to get too hung up on specifics like "I can get better magnetic performance by doing "x".  That wasn't the goal.  It is an integrated design to get extreme performance from an air core axial on battery charging, making compromises here and there in the design to achieve the desired end result.  It was not an exercise in making best use of magnetic volume.

And this is where experienced and skilled engineers often depart from "accepted norms" in a design.

Later, I built another identical machine with a neo generator in it to compare the performance of the two turbines.  I found I can get no more power from the neo, even though it operates at much higher voltage than the ferrite unit.  The ferrite machine has an internal resistance of .55 ohm, while the neo is .47 ohm and operates at almost double the voltage.  Theoretically, it should be much more powerful.  But it's not.  Why?  Because the original ferrite design already pushes the blades to the edge of their performance envelope and there was nothing to be gained by building the generator more efficient (and more expensive).

The other thing that I hate about the contemporary homebrew designs is furling.  They have to furl properly or they'll burn up.  I wanted to build a turbine with a generator so powerful that it can develop 15-18 kW of braking power for a 10 foot machine without hurting it, and not need furling for power control.  The only thing I use the furling for on these machines is to let the turbine turn to the side of the tower in strong storms where the wind gets over 40 mph, to take some of the load off the tower.

I don't build and post these projects for the newbie, or for the "average" builder that thinks it's too complex or hard.  I post them for the experienced turbine builder who realizes the gross performance limitations of the contemporary homebrew book designs and wants something better.  They can look at it and go, "Hey - I could do that".  This gives the "old dogs" fits because I show folks everything from how you can use "wrong" magnet spacing, to "wrong" coil shapes, to maybe even using dual stators to achieve a desired end result that still uses most of the time proven construction methods outlined in the homebrew books.

When you take something like Hugh's basic air core axial design and re-design it to push it to the raw edge of maximum performance you have to think outside the box and never let "conventional wisdom" get in the way of what you want for an end result.  Not to mention that it's incredibly satisfying and fun to see a turbine that you crafted yourself running at such high performance levels that you can't squeeze even one more watt out of the potential of the blades driving it.  My geared turbines flat out STOMP a Bergey XL.1 Noise Maker for performance at a fraction of the cost in materials to build one.  And that puts a big grin on my face every time I see the ammeter laying on 90 amps combined with the hum of some serious high performance equipment on the tower.  You gotta' have fun or you've lost sight of what it's all about    :)
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Chris

midwoud1

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Re: Heavy truck/automotive alternators
« Reply #13 on: April 22, 2012, 05:17:32 PM »
Windgenerator with car alternator
 2 stage V-Belt drive  . Manual active pitch-control .
Exciter was a tape-recorder motor ( self start ) on the mainshaft.
 26 years ago.  It worked but it was low efficient.

     - Frans -

oztules

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Re: Heavy truck/automotive alternators
« Reply #14 on: April 23, 2012, 12:05:29 AM »
Now thats impressive..... all of it.



...............oztules
Flinders Island Australia

ghurd

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Re: Heavy truck/automotive alternators
« Reply #15 on: April 24, 2012, 07:57:20 PM »
What Oz and JLT said.
Not sure where the 1000s of hours came from, but can do it easier now with MPPT.

Plus historically speaking, KISS works.
And it works for DIY.
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