Light Wind Heavy Weight Turbine Project - as I build it.

[birdhouse]

i use cheap pulleys much like i listed for raising my 70' tower, and have yet to have an issue.  i'll bet they'll be just fine for steadfasts short tower. 

more quality would be great, but they get spendy real quick! 

adam

[spottrouble]

i use cheap pulleys much like i listed for raising my 70' tower, and have yet to have an issue.  i'll bet they'll be just fine for steadfasts short tower. 

more quality would be great, but they get spendy real quick! 

adam

That may be so, yet its no different than someone selling a car alternator claiming it will put out a 1000 watts as a wind generator, isn't that a big part of this thread, the honesty of sellers? Quality has never been cheap, being cheap on a part that is critical to the lifting of an expensive parts is just plain foolish. The seller of those snatchblocks does not list country of origin, and has rated them (at best) by shear strength, sorry, I do not condone deceptive salesmen.

[Frank S]

That is why I'd put a grade 8 bolt through it with a couple jamb nuts or a nylock nut on it.

   Nothing wrong with that as long as the threads are not in shear

i use cheap pulleys much like i listed for raising my 70' tower, and have yet to have an issue.  i'll bet they'll be just fine for steadfasts short tower. 

more quality would be great, but they get spendy real quick!

 

Don't get me wrong I have no qualms about using dodgy stuff sometimes, but if I had a doubt I'd see if I could break the cable before the snatch block does.
 raising his tower a 2 ton Mas-dam come-along would probably do the job only it would not have long enough take up cable .
But one of these has kept me out of trouble more times than I can count.

[fabricator]

Those are more commonly known as a grip hoist or tri for, lots of guys use em, especially in places where there is no power available to run a winch.

[Steadfast]

If I bought a second one, would that reduce the strain on the one?

[fabricator]

Yes. every snatch block you add reduces the strain on the others, slows your line speed and increases the mechanical advantage, you are essentially adding pulley bolts which reduces the load on the others, add ten snatch blocks and that winch would slide your house, given string enough anchor points.

[Steadfast]

OK.... I just bought a second one...
MAN, you guys like spending my money... 
Don't get me wrong...If I need it I need it... It just sucks.

Besides,
I kinda felt a little hinky about having my cable go from the winch
through the "one and only contact point" snatch block on the gin and back to the winch...

Now, my cable will go from the winch through the snatch block on the gin,
back down to another snatch block on the winch stand and back up to the gin.

This way, with the two, I increase my strength, decrease the tension on both of them,
and at least my gin pole is still attached to the winch...in the end...
So, if the gin pole Snatch block snaps at least my tower wont naked free fall.

Can you tell, I am done chinsing out and playing around.
I am completely submitting to your instruction now...
.
.

[Frank S]

Now, my cable will go from the winch through the snatch block on the gin,
back down to another snatch block on the winch stand and back up to the gin.

This way, with the two, I increase my strength, decrease the tension on both of them,
and at least my gin pole is still attached to the winch...in the end...
So, if the gin pole Snatch block snaps at least my tower wont naked free fall.

Can you tell, I am done chinsing out and playing around.
I am completely submitting to your instruction now...
.
.

You have the reeving or rigging analogy down but if any one point snaps you are in free fall no mater if you put 100 snatch blocks in line. what you are doing is reducing the strain on the cable and all points of connection
you are now at a 3 to 1 mechanical advantage and a 1 to 3 movement disadvantage. About as good as you should ever need in raising your tower keep in mind however the more lines of purchase you have the longer your cable will need to be this will mean the more winding of the cable on the drum at some point ther would be more cable than the drum could hold then you would have to anchor off and remove and shorten the cable then start again.

[birdhouse]

steadfast-

at some point ther would be more cable than the drum could hold then you would have to anchor off and remove and shorten the cable then start again.

do you have the specs for your winch?  IE: how many feet of "x" diameter cable the drum will hold??  and what is the diameter of the cable your using as your raising cable?  and how long is your gin pole?  and how far is the winch from the tower base?

the reason i ask, is you may not be able to use the second pulley, as it will create more cable than your winch can wind up.  you may even be better off using thinner raising cable to give you more winch room on the drum. 

for raising, i use 1/4" though i really should probably be using 5/16".  i pesonally only use one pulley at the gin.  the other pulley in my photo is only there to let the raising cable pull nice at straight, and pull the gin directly towards the gin footing.  i still use my truck for raising, as i haven't had the time to get a winch installed.  i just drive two footed in 4x4 (one foot always hovering over the brake pedal). 

adam

[Frank S]

birdhouse; if this is the winch he bought it will hold 60 ft of5/16" cable . I need to re read how his rigging is and where the placements of his snatch blocks are going to be in relation to the tower & gin pole as I have not heard mention of a point sheave on the gin pole

Here is the new winch I just bought:

Product Description :
DAYTON Winch,Worm Gear,3000 Lb Single Line Pull.
for the SMOKIN price of $134.78/EA
http://www.zorotools.com/g/00053854/k-1DJN5/

[Steadfast]

I have to make and entirely new mast and gin pole first...
BUT
My gin pole will be 8 ft long from the mast hinge.
When the mast is fully raised the gin pole is 3 inches from the front of the winch stand.


So, I should only need a minimum of 30ft of 5/16" Stainless Steel Cable. 
but I will buy 50ft...

[Frank S]

Those are more commonly known as a grip hoist or tri for, lots of guys use em, especially in places where there is no power available to run a winch.

Yea Fab my company has about 60 of them 4s 8s & 16ton jobs its about the only way possible to raise the fabric for the tent canopies to cover a 400 car parking lot or a small stadium  or the play grounds for a K through 12 school. impossible to raise a 2000 sq meter fabric to the top of 20 support columns any other way

[tanner0441]

Hi

If your gin pole is 3 inches from the winch in the horizontal you are going to have a tremendous loading on the winch, as long as the gin pole is comming downwards it will be working, as soon as the cable gets closer to horizontal you will lose the lifting moment the gin pole has on the mast. The easiest way round that would be to make the angle between the gin pole and the mast more accute.

Read Frank S's comments again on cable lengths and mechanical advantage. With a 30 ft tower and an 8 ft gin pole, once you know the weight of your mast with whatever you put on top of it, and the distance from the pivot point, and the distance up the mast your gin pole connects you can calculate the load on your winch. My mast is 30 ft and by mounting my winch on the side of a tree stump, I don't use a gin pole but my pull is never near horizontal at the same time as the mast. My turbine weight is about 60 pounds or so with the fibre glass blades, I use a power winch which comes with the facility to return the cable to an anchor on the winch and the hook is on a pully much larger than the one in the snatch block you show. With the cable return you get a slower and much more control on the lift. Also the pivot bolt at the bottom of your mast is not just taking the weight of your mast it has a very large sideways shearing moment from the gin pole. The comments about not putting the thread under shear is sound advice, if I remember correctly you were advised to weld a piece of tube through the mast for the pivot bolt to run through.

Brian.

[Steadfast]

Hi

If your gin pole is 3 inches from the winch in the horizontal you are going to have a tremendous loading on the winch, as long as the gin pole is comming downwards it will be working, as soon as the cable gets closer to horizontal you will lose the lifting moment the gin pole has on the mast. The easiest way round that would be to make the angle between the gin pole and the mast more accute.

Brian.

I need to see what you are talking about in a photo or drawing format...

The comments about not putting the thread under shear is sound advice, if I remember correctly you were advised to weld a piece of tube through the mast for the pivot bolt to run through.

Brian.

We did that last time, and I plan to do that again with a MUCH bigger Bolt this time as well...

[tanner0441]

Hi

Make the angle between the mast and the gin pole less than 90 degrees, so the end of the gin pole is never level with the winch. Make sure you don't pul your mast over verticle though. Your background in basic mechanics is full of holes, see if you can find a book with drawings of pully systems. Or look at drawings on the internet, the information is out there I don't have enough time at the moment to find the links to send you so your going to have to look yourself.   

Look how others on here have raised their towers, not the ones who pull them up with a truck, there are no end of videos on how it has been done.

Steer clear of hydraulics that is a whole different game.

Brian

[Truckman]

Really dumb question here...... I have googled this every way I can think of but what is the best way to figure out the average wind speeds in a localized area? I saw a website that had 10 classes based on the average wind speed for a year but haven't been able to find the data for my area.  Any help would be great.... Thanks, Truckman

[Steadfast]

There is an ap for THAT... 

If you own a smartphone look up and download "Windfinder Pro"
it has thousands of locations broadcasting live wind speeds!
It also forcasts daily wind speeds (by hour) a week out in time.

[Warrior]

So steadfast, did tony hurricance deliver the delco genny? Didn't he promise by last monday? Or is he still waiting for the super vortex field neo magnets?

I'm not trying to pull your chain, but I have been following this post from day one and gave Tony the benefit of the doubt. I think a good amount of time has gone by and he is only giving you lame excuses because you are a newbie. There is no such thing as vortex field magnets or what ever he calls them. So that is why most of the professionals on this board have been telling you from day one it was a scam. I'm curious to hear what new excuse he will give you....

I do admire your perserverance and you keep going on in spite of everyone telling you it won't work.

Good luck with your project! The machine Chris gave you plus the solar you already have will make a nice system.

Warrior

[birdhouse]

steadfast-

My gin pole will be 8 ft long from the mast hinge.

that's less than ideal for a 30' tower.  i know you've put a lot of work into the winch footings ect....,...  BUT if your looking at 4" sch 40 pipe, or even 3/16 wall square stock, i REALLY think you might rip your winch footings right out of the ground with the additional tower weight and an 8' gin pole.  there's a LOT of forces on a very short lever arm. 

IE:  my gin is 32' long for a 70' tower.  i skimped a bit as the general rule is the gin should be 1/2 the tower height.  another general rule is guy RADIUS should be 1/2 the tower height. 

if you build a 30' tower with 4" sch 40, i don't think that 8' gin pole is going to handle it!  maybe your winch won't rip out, but i'll bet the gin will deflect (taco). 

i'm no engineer, but i see lots of stuff that has been engineered, and take constant mental notes. 

let's try and avoid another bent tower.  did you ever read that bergy wind tower link i sent you a while back on the original thread?  no insult, just curious. 

not trying to be a debbie downer, but rather trying to help you build a robust tower that inspires confidence every time you raise/lower it. 

adam

[birdhouse]

additional though! 

maybe make a SUPER strong gin pole @ 8' with existing winch, then have an additional footing/winch attached between the middle and upper guys (assuming you've got two sets of guys at this point) that is located much further away (20'??).  you'll have to rely on the robust 8' gin to at least get the tower a few feet off the ground, but then you can crank the outer winch a small bit to unload the inner winch....  then run back and forth with a few cranks here, and a few cranks there... 

NOT BEING AN ENGINEER:
i'd be happy seeing a 35' tower with 3" sch 40 slipped into 3.5" sch 40 with the system described above.  With ( 8 ) guys.  two sets of four.  But you're shed is in the way, and that's a pretty big issue.  can the upper guy on the shed side have it's footing WAY far away, so it clears the shed during the entire raising? 

adam

[spottrouble]

But you're shed is in the way, and that's a pretty big issue.  can the upper guy on the shed side have it's footing WAY far away, so it clears the shed during the entire raising? 

adam

I like that idea!
Disclaimer: I'm not an engineer either, I just play one in real life, shhh thats our little secret

Kristi

[Steadfast]

I too am concerned about my 1200 pound concrete base....

What if we scaled things down a bit...?
Say, a 3" square, 20ft long, 5/16 thick pipe
with a 2.5" square, 12ft long on top.
(That gives me upto 2 feet extra to bind them togeather)
With an 2.5" 8ft gin...

Remember, there will be a 60 pound bird on the end of this thing...

[breezyears]

My head is starting to hurt again.

[fabricator]

We are on the same schedual pard

[Steadfast]

I really need an answer... I am buying tomarrow...

[fabricator]

SF, in that picture with the cables attaching the winch with the chain parts I really hope those turn buckle ends are the solid type and not just bent hooks, turn buckle ends MUST be soild rings with clevises and pins NOT those threaded chain links, and those turn buckles look like the aluminum variety, THAT, is totally unacceptable.
Take the damn chain OUT and attach the cable directly to the gin, also remember "never saddle a dead horse" when you are assembling cable clamps.
And for Gods sake DON'T drill big holes through your mast, the gin pole simply MUST be 50% of the length of the tower or very close to it, sorry pard but that is the way the universe works and matmatics don't lie and mother nature don't like to be F'ed with, as you have already found out several times the hard way.
Go to yuotube and watch any number of the guyed tower videos going up, it's really pretty damn simple unless YOU make it hard.

[fabricator]

You want an answer? OK here is your answer, rip your WRONGLY placed winch anchor out of the ground, OR, leave it there and pour a new foundation out 50% the length of you tower, then go with the 3" sched 40 with the 3.5 sched 40 for a slip fit and use 3" sched 40 for your gin. QED.

[Steadfast]

the 3.5 sched 40 for a slip fit is a greeat Idea...

However I have been asking around about this and none of the steel places sale anything smaller than a 20 ft stick... but I will shop around for a "specific 3.5 sched 40 for a slip fit".

This is why I was hoping I could weld one inside the other.

[birdhouse]

However I have been asking around about this and none of the steel places sale anything smaller than a 20 ft stick...

i assumed you'd have to buy two 20' sticks no matter what route you end up going.  it's just how most steel is sold. 

good eyes fab!  yea, that turnbuckle looks to have a hook end on the top.  not good if a little slack emerges....  then cable slips off from turnbuckle and failure! 

you can try calling big chainlink fencing shops...  sometimes they stock decent sized pipe and may have some off cuts??

adam

[Steadfast]

then go with the 3" sched 40 with the 3.5 sched 40 for a slip fit and use 3" sched 40 for your gin.

If I go with this plan what size and tinsle strength cables would I need...?

[Tritium]

This thread is as frustrating as trying to explain A Science Fiction Movie to my 82 year old mother  who is now age 3 in her second childhood. She just can't get the concept and never attempts to learn on her own. Just endless questions to which the answers are ignored unless they fit what she wants to hear. 

Thurmond

[tanner0441]

Hi

Why are you using that carrabina on your turnbuckle. They are OK on a sailing boat but not on a guy wire, we did not even use those when I was climbing because of the failure rate. I would have fitted a D link.

You seem to go off at a tangent, you were asking about winch cableing, and snatch blocks, I pointed out you don't have any lift if your gin pole is level with the winch, you asked me to explane about the angle of the winch to the tower. You could use 6 in structural steel pipe of any shape if your winch is not in the right position, the cables are not at ther right angle, and the gin pole to mast length ratio is not correct, you are still looking for ways to hurt yourself.

Several people have asked if the Red delco arrived which you seem to have not answered.

Plan your mast, mark out and prepare your guy fixings, make sure the winch is in the right place to effectively and safely lift the tower with the turbine on top of it, and get someone to help with the lift who can watch from a different angle that your watching and stop you if things start getting out of shape.

The weight and size of your project is getting bigger and heavier not doing things properly will cost you more money or pain or worse, if someone gets hurt over here we just take them to hospital, if you get hurt you need medical insurance and insurance companies, wherever they are in the world, look for ways to get out of paying, and contibutory neglegence will be a clause they love.

Brian

[Steadfast]

The 3.5 sched 40 for a slip fit is NOT going to happen,
unless I want to drop $142 for 20ft of it. 

OK... let me spell out real clearly, what I am thinking of building here.

I am planning on building a 30ft gin tower With
one 20ft, 3"x3", 1/4" thick square structure pipe,
With one 12ft, 2.5"x2.5", 1/4" thick square structure pipe
(slid 1 OR 2 ft down inside the 3X3 and welded, making the 30ft mast)
With one 8ft Gin Pole made from 2.5"x2.5", 1/4 " thick square structure pipe

My base is 1200 pounds concrete with a 2x2ft, 1/2" steel plate
With two 4"x4" 5/16thick, 1.5ft long angle iron beams welded to it for the hinge.

If I am erecting this 30ft tower
weighing 288 pounds with an 8 ft gin pole weighing 57 pounds, (this includes a 7ft, 60pound turbine on the end) weighing a total of 344 pounds

how thick should my guy cables be?

I can bump up both square pipe sizes by .5 inchs wider, if you guys like...
but with the gin and the mast my weight will increase by 21 pounds (with turbine)
.
.