Author Topic: Do I have to use a Permanent Magnet motor?  (Read 4137 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

aubassist16

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 2
  • Country: us
Do I have to use a Permanent Magnet motor?
« on: June 01, 2012, 08:04:52 AM »
I am working on a small wind turbine as a high school science project and  I recently located a free treadmill motor, but I determined that it is not permanent magnet. Time is running out and  I was wondering if there is any way that it can be converted for use as a generator (without adding magnets), by means of a bridge rectifier, etc. It is 120 volts, 9 amps and would be perfect if it were a pm. What should I do?

Steadfast

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 601
  • Country: us
Re: Do I have to use a Permanent Magnet motor?
« Reply #1 on: June 01, 2012, 08:41:54 AM »
for a science project:
If all you have to do is "charge a battery" to be successful.
use the motor you have... buy a 6 volt battery... that way all your motor has to do is produce more than 6 volts to start "Cutting in" and charging your battery...

Buying a Doc Wattson digital battery meter IS A MUST!
that way folks can watch LIVE as your battery gets charged...

http://www.powerwerx.com/digital-meters/doc-wattson-meter-dc-inline.html
$60 but worth EVERY PENNY

When you display your turbine at your science fair,
add a handle onto the hub so people at the fair can
spin it manually and watch the Doc Wattson as THEY MAKE Electricity!

Do this and YOU WILL WIN...
By Hook or by Crook - Prayer, Persistence and Tenacity will win the day!

Steadfast

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 601
  • Country: us
Re: Do I have to use a Permanent Magnet motor?
« Reply #2 on: June 01, 2012, 09:13:26 AM »
I am fairly new at this but,
Your circuit should run in this order:
(the guys here will correct me if I am off anywhere)

Turbine --> Doc Wattson -->  deep cycle battery --> switch --> 12Volt DC car running light (you can buy one from autozone)
By Hook or by Crook - Prayer, Persistence and Tenacity will win the day!

OperaHouse

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1309
  • Country: us
Re: Do I have to use a Permanent Magnet motor?
« Reply #3 on: June 01, 2012, 11:01:55 AM »
I used to be a science fair judge and the most important thing to demonstrate is that you learned something.  Whatr you will learn is that it just won't work.  You won't generate enough power to even run the Doc Watson.  What I have learned is you have waited till the last moment like most students to start this.  Scale down your project and use a PM motor from an old VCR.

Steadfast

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 601
  • Country: us
Re: Do I have to use a Permanent Magnet motor?
« Reply #4 on: June 01, 2012, 12:13:14 PM »
Cut the kid some slack...  >:(
Its a science fair project not an attempt to power a house...

What I have learned is that some folks around here are blinded by their own bias...
and can be real jerks too...  ::)

I own a doc Wattson and
less than .05 volts shows up on a doc wattson....

If ya wanta go bare bones you can do this...
http://s701.photobucket.com/albums/ww20/ghurd1/ECM%20Conversion/?action=view&current=PICT0819.mp4

« Last Edit: June 01, 2012, 12:18:58 PM by Steadfast »
By Hook or by Crook - Prayer, Persistence and Tenacity will win the day!

thingamajigger

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 67
  • Country: ca
Re: Do I have to use a Permanent Magnet motor?
« Reply #5 on: June 01, 2012, 01:00:44 PM »
@aubassist16
Quote
I am working on a small wind turbine as a high school science project and  I recently located a free treadmill motor, but I determined that it is not permanent magnet. Time is running out and  I was wondering if there is any way that it can be converted for use as a generator (without adding magnets), by means of a bridge rectifier, etc. It is 120 volts, 9 amps and would be perfect if it were a pm. What should I do?

Google "Induction Generator", take any AC motor and wire a capacitor across the terminals and you have an AC induction generator. In this application you will need a belt drive with the right pulley's so the turbine spins slow and the AC motor/generator spins fast. This is very easy to do and it works reasonably well, also you can add a full wave rectifier to convert the AC output to DC if you want to change a battery.


tanner0441

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1100
  • Country: wales
Re: Do I have to use a Permanent Magnet motor?
« Reply #6 on: June 01, 2012, 05:40:31 PM »
Hi

To get an AC syncronous motor to generate you have to spin it faster than its design speed. Look out for a motor from a printer or the head motor from VCR machine. It will light LEDs or charge a phone battery but it will prove how viable your project is.

Brian.


Still can't get the spell check to work....

aubassist16

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 2
  • Country: us
Re: Do I have to use a Permanent Magnet motor?
« Reply #7 on: June 01, 2012, 07:27:01 PM »
I don't know why you all assumed it was a science fair project, and I have not waited until the last minute. It is for my end of the year AP Physics project we started the day after the AP exam on May 15. Now we are running into a problem with the motor. It don't have any idea what this Doc Wattson stuff is, but I already have a 12 volt battery. I am still not sure how to rewire the motor so that it can be used as a generator, and if it is a DC motor, how come it ran on both AC and DC power? The plan is to invert the charged battery to run small appliances like cell phone charges, etc. Is there any way that I can power the coils to make them electromagnets (like with a 9 volt battery or something) and then run it as a generator? Thanks.

spottrouble

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 114
  • Country: us
Re: Do I have to use a Permanent Magnet motor?
« Reply #8 on: June 01, 2012, 09:13:56 PM »
All the treadmill motors I've seen are permanent magnet DC motors, the treadmill itself operates on AC power, yet power is rectified to DC. How exactly did you run this motor on both AC and DC? I believe there are some universal motors that operate on both, its usually stuff like drills and skilsaws.

What info is on the data tag of motor?

Is there a scrap/recycling yard nearby, maybe you can find a better candidate there. Google "Doc Watson meter".

"It is for my end of the year AP Physics project we started the day after the AP exam on May 15"
Thought school was done, is this a summer school project? I have no idea what AP stands for.

Kristi


OperaHouse

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1309
  • Country: us
Re: Do I have to use a Permanent Magnet motor?
« Reply #9 on: June 02, 2012, 06:27:45 AM »
"how come it ran on both AC and DC"

If this is true then what you have is a universal motor.  The armature and field coils are wired in series.  You can power the field coil seperately but this is juat as bad a choice as  useing a car  alternator.  Overall it will consume more power than it produces.  There are plenty of DC  motors out there.  Look for one with the highest voltage rating possible.  Avoid 12V notors altogether. Remember to think about volts per rpm.  Your speed will be under 300 rpm so generally higher voltage industrial motors work better.  Elextronics can solve some problems but selecting the right notor is worth the effort.

tecker

  • SuperHero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 2183
Re: Do I have to use a Permanent Magnet motor?
« Reply #10 on: June 02, 2012, 07:29:52 AM »
Make the size wind turbine that you want to manage and then run tests on it's output . Be creative about your tests and that will be good . Bicycle speedometer is useful . Spend your time on blade making and when a motor turns up you will be ready to go to the next phase . That's the way things work out in the real world . Auto dc motors will put you in the Cell phone charge range .

OperaHouse

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1309
  • Country: us
Re: Do I have to use a Permanent Magnet motor?
« Reply #11 on: June 02, 2012, 09:20:46 AM »
Define what you think the blade size will be first.  Many small mills near ground level are just pipe dreams.  You are in AP class.  These parameters are all defined.  It is a math problem.  You can do better than most people here who just build and see what they get.

vtpeaknik

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 136
  • Country: us
Re: Do I have to use a Permanent Magnet motor?
« Reply #12 on: June 02, 2012, 09:44:52 AM »
A question to you motor/generator mavens: a motor without permanent magnets can be quite efficient: the electric current is used to magnetize both the stator and the rotor.  Why can't the same thing be done in reverse, in a generator?  A small current from a battery or something could be used to get the magnetic field started, but once it's generating current, if that current were to be forced through both stator and rotor in the right orientation, wouldn't it be self-reinforcing?  I.e., if the electromagnetic forces are such that it pushes back against the turning, then forcing it to turn (using the energy source that drives the whole thing, e.g., a wind turbine) would increase the current and the magnetic fields.  This is basically done in a synchronous grid-tied generator, although it's tied to the grid, it generates a surplus, efficiently.

The catch is that you need to "commutate" it somehow if you're using DC.  At least you'd need a way to commutate the initial excitation current, even if the generator then produces AC?  What if the stator is driven with DC and the rotor has the old fashioned (brushed) commutation mechanism?  A brushless design would last longer though.


taylorp035

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1207
  • Country: us
  • Stressed spelled backwards is Desserts
Re: Do I have to use a Permanent Magnet motor?
« Reply #13 on: June 02, 2012, 06:08:34 PM »
There are knock off meters out there just like a Doc-Watson for $30 that should work just fine for this application.  I have bought bother versions and I am happy with them.

Option Two says to go and get some harbor Freight multimeters, one for amps and one for volts.... cheaper and you can go right to the store to buy them instead of waiting for online shipping.