VAWT rt angle speed increasing

[Watt]

Yep, this post is full of facts.  No further comment!

@dbcollen

I have been playing this game for over a decade, and no offense, but you are completely FOS just like all the other rooftop VAWT Scammers. I have no more breath to spare on someone who is obviously arrogant, ignorant and aggresive in promoting misinformation.

I have been playing this game for over 3 decades, I built my first 3m machine when I was 13 and no offense but let's try to keep this on a technical basis. If you have some facts or information you would like to share with us I would be more than happy to comment on it.

@Frank S

One company I owned 10% or was proud of their 30 patents they had on their products within a year I had made so many improvements or changes to the design on the machines that hardly any or their so valuable patents were even being used
 I've help develop or just out right designed 100s of items that were patented and my name does not appear on a single one except for one back when I was 11 years old and then even then the  guy put a middle initial that shouldn't have been there Probably because he never knew my first name my dad always said my name with a slur so it came out Frank-n

Frank-n-S, it wouldn't be Frank.N.Stein would it because that would be quite a name to have when a person was younger. One of my friends named his son with the initials R.E.Specht which I thought was pretty cool as far as names go.
On the issue of patents I would agree 100% and most people who take out their first patent have a steep learning curve and really have no idea what it actually means in this day and age in my opinion. I have probably read thousands of patents in my lifetime and as you say it is not all that hard to make an "improvement" which is unique in some way which bypasses the patent. In fact most all of the business persons I know all agree that a patent is not worth the paper it is printed on in this day and age unless they have a major amount of spare cash flow to protect their patents, that is if they can even find the offenders. Throw in the "China syndrome" and government red tape and globally a patent is a complete waste of time unless your a multi-million dollar corporation.

Regards
Thing

[Frank S]

@ thing actually my name is Franklin which  is my middle name my dad never seemed to be able to get the li in it I think it may have been because his tongue was split open when he was a POW in Korea 

[fabricator]

If I were you guys I'd jut go to your user control panel and ignore that troll thing, he is just an arrogant, egotistical and FOS, he may have some very useful contributions to make but it's jut not worth sorting through all the BS.

[Frank S]

Thank you fab; I might resemble that.
Arrogant? Often.
Egotistical? Probably, although not overly narcissistic and hardly ever megalomaniacal,
 A Troll, sometime; however my off the cuff comments do have a tendency to cause others to add input they otherwise might not have brought forth. 
 You might note as well that I hardly ever comment on anything that deals with electronics or wattage outputs voltage control or things such as that, unless it is a completely off the wall comment . even though I did study one time just enough to pass the California's test to get a class b electricians permit to install the machines I delivered without having to hire  a Sparky each time, mostly because none of them wanted to waste their time on nothing more than a series of 12v dc control circuits. I hardly claim to know the difference between a strand of copper wire or a copperhead snake except under the wrong conditions the bit from either can kill.

[Frank S]

Frank;the problem I see is when there is little wind and the turbine is producing little power, you are trying to increase generator speeds. When you have a LOT of power (if we assume a VAWT has usable power) we are decreasing generator speed.  As you said, you are looking at a 'constant' generator speed. However, the power output of a wind driven device is near the opposite in its' performance


Very true one of the biggest problems with the Vawts is drag and it really doesn't matter which design is incorporated in the turbines design the blade receiving the power can do so optimally only for a short period of its power arc cycle. The blade/s on the return side are being  pushed against the wind through out nearly half of the rotation Turbine resistance will always be one huge limiting factor in vawts
 Un like a Hawt most will hardly ever reach critical rotational speeds with the exception of what their sheer size and mass dictate , Then the best way to get any useable wattage is to either design a generator with very low cut in speed  then limit its top speed  or to use one with a higher  low end RPM with a gear train again having to limit the top speed or to try and come up with a way to vary the ratio of the genny to the RPMs of the turbine.
 No matter which way one goes about it there are certain laws of physics that you are not going to ever get around. 1to2 m/s forget it hardly enough kinetic energy to blow out a good candle. 3 to4 m/s about the bottom end for most any type V or Hawt, 5 to 12 m/2 probably the sweet spot for most. 17 to 20 m/2 and above the drag alone is going to start to restrict the speed. Above 25 m/2 those things had better be well anchored and have a strong shaft coupled with a way to park them or some way to slow them down.
 OK the speeds I mentioned are no bench mark set in anyone's stone, just a relative average taken from over 100 Vawt design claims by others  and should in no way be used as a guide for the design of a Vawt.
 The friction drive speed controller I came up with as a concept is just that a concept  taken in part from many other things I have worked on not the least of which were various turn of the previous century agricultural planters .

 I was not attempting to design something  to be used as a pure constant RPM generator.The only way I know how that could be done would be to calculate a generator to be sized to the lowest power wattage available at cut in speed then never let it produce any more than that holding the speed to a set RPM this would wast more top end energy than could ever be gained from the low end.
  Although I may not have clearly stated the intentions. Rather to increase the useable range and to help smooth out the fluctuations of unstable wind conditions there by stabilizing  the generator to a more constant rpm
 Sorry if I didn't make it very clear.
 for instance the ratio at a 67t RPM turbine start up where I have noted some Vawt manufactures claim for cut in would be about 1 to 3.78 or 253g RPM at the generator then say at 195t RPM turbine speed the ratio would be 1 to 1.3 or 253g RPM gen speed  or if the turbine was spinning at 300t @ 1 to 1.3 the gen would be390g  at400t @ 1to 1.3 520g (rounded figures)
 since I am not designing the turbine nor the generator I have no way of knowing how much kinetic energy would be available at 67 or 195 or above and am not going to speculate any figures.
 I will say though that the higher the RPMs and the higher the wattage output  a greater downward force would be required to prevent excessive slippage and the turbine blades would have to be designed accordingly to exert this force

[fabricator]

Thank you fab; I might resemble that.
Arrogant? Often.
Egotistical? Probably, although not overly narcissistic and hardly ever megalomaniacal,
 A Troll, sometime; however my off the cuff comments do have a tendency to cause others to add input they otherwise might not have brought forth. 
 You might note as well that I hardly ever comment on anything that deals with electronics or wattage outputs voltage control or things such as that, unless it is a completely off the wall comment . even though I did study one time just enough to pass the California's test to get a class b electricians permit to install the machines I delivered without having to hire  a Sparky each time, mostly because none of them wanted to waste their time on nothing more than a series of 12v dc control circuits. I hardly claim to know the difference between a strand of copper wire or a copperhead snake except under the wrong conditions the bit from either can kill.

My post wasn't about you, it was about the thing.

[Frank S]

Thank you fab; I might resemble that.
Arrogant? Often.
Egotistical? Probably, although not overly narcissistic and hardly ever megalomaniacal,
 A Troll, sometime; however my off the cuff comments do have a tendency to cause others to add input they otherwise might not have brought forth. 
 You might note as well that I hardly ever comment on anything that deals with electronics or wattage outputs voltage control or things such as that, unless it is a completely off the wall comment . even though I did study one time just enough to pass the California's test to get a class b electricians permit to install the machines I delivered without having to hire  a Sparky each time, mostly because none of them wanted to waste their time on nothing more than a series of 12v dc control circuits. I hardly claim to know the difference between a strand of copper wire or a copperhead snake except under the wrong conditions the bit from either can kill.

My post wasn't about you, it was about the thing.

I don't have a problem  either way
 I have enough Comanche & Cherokee in me that brings out arrogant's naturally
 Enough Swiss/ German that makes me egotistical at times 
 and enough Scotch or Irish that makes me always FOS
 as for the thing I could dig up 1000s of examples of how angled friction drives have been incorporated as far back as Da Vinci
 As far as a Vawt goes I could design a collapsible trailing vane set up that would greatly increase the efficiency but it would probably sound like a Diesel engine revving up. Who knows there are probably some old diesel jockeys that spent their life trying to grab an hour's sleep in a pick-a -park  who would love hearing that sound  even if it only made enough watts to heat up his coffee   he would be out there putting shine shine on his chrome-delco every day LOL
   

[fabricator]

The collapsible trailing vane has been done to death, many examples on youtube, the problem there is all the vane turning linkages and such use up efficiency VAWTs are already behind on, and truthfully that friction drive would probably make anything but a very large VAWT virtually useless.

[Frank S]

The collapsible trailing vane has been done to death, many examples on youtube, the problem there is all the vane turning linkages and such use up efficiency VAWTs are already behind on, and truthfully that friction drive would probably make anything but a very large VAWT virtually useless.

you and I both know the problems associated with VAWTs no argument there LOL
And yes I have been at numerous  research sites, mostly from a structural standpoint, with both VAWT & HAWT  V's with helical, flat, cylindrical even shaped like an Archimedes screw some fixed some collapsible / retractable  with or without linkages
 And H's with fixed control pitched  some with blades that opened like a geisha fan and some that telescoped. all had more bad points than good points
 I was even allowed to climb inside of a 1 mw  while in Holland 5 years back my  interest then though was mostly structural as with the other sites
 these little 50 to 2000 watt turbines is a whole new ball game for me
 Actually when I first started reading about the home brew axial's I started to become more than slightly intrigued that 40 year old high school experiments had actually become useful to so many by the advent of technologies that could only have been read about in science fiction in the 60s     

[midwoud1]

Hi Frank and Fab.

I see you are interested in active variable blade control ,
What is in your opinion a good design for HAWT 500 - 2500 Watt ?
Seen a solid works drawing from you  a 50 Kw looking good.
There must be more people working on it or are intend to.
I know you can make it .
A good choice of actuators is in the mechanical parts-shop for sale.
I even think of car-window opener.
A friend in Holland is making a small Enercon (5 meter prop) with one big main bearing.
Marijn Innotech is making his design with polyester infusion blades and carbon hub.
I have my active-pitch windmill working  for one year and it is succesful.
Several times students of a University in India asking me to sent drawings.
There are no drawings , A journey man is working with tools .
Drawings are made by people with pencils.
In my topic everyone can see how it works.

 - Regards  Frans -

[Frank S]

Franz I will post an updated photo of one of my concepts for the larger unit I am in the process of designing. in the 5to 30 Kw thread
 I am still not finished with it but enough to show more of my concept it could easily be scaled down or probably up
 

[fabricator]

A journey man is working with tools .
Drawings are made by people with pencils.
In my topic everyone can see how it works.

 - Regards  Frans -

That hits the nail right on the head Frans, pencils are for putting marks on boards where they need to be cut.

[Bruce S]

Frank S; Bob Golding, And others trying to have an intelligent conversation in this posting;
MY  Apologies for not doing this earlier, I took some time away from the forum to visit with our daughter while she was on a short summer break from Americorp.
The 100degree heat took a lot out of the entire team building 10 homes up in the Milwaukee area in less than 3 weeks.

GM MODE

ENOUGH!!!

ALL
Unless you are helping with the discussion Frank S posted on, DO NOT post any more crap about  VAWTs vs HAWTs on this post!

It's distracting to the people interested to the subject matter , put your opinions on that matter in the PUB area that's what it's there for.

[Frank S]

there probably will not be much research done on this or the 5 to 30 design project for a while I was admitted to hospital for suspected heart problems.  Please do not pose comments except those pertaining to the project use the hijacking thread instead

[fabricator]

I hope the heart thing turned/turns out all right.