Author Topic: Isn't that just grape  (Read 5586 times)

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OperaHouse

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Isn't that just grape
« on: June 29, 2012, 11:12:47 AM »
I went online to COSTCO.COM to see what they had for generators.  Included in the search were solar panels.  They offer a 100W for $189 and that includes shipping.  That beats ebay prices for China panels.  Made by GRAPE.  Anyone bought these?

DanG

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Re: Isn't that just grape
« Reply #1 on: June 29, 2012, 11:42:49 AM »
100 watts, 21x47" with 36 Monocrystalline cells for $190 sounds pretty reasonable - 10 year 90% power warranty...

Sure is a handy size too - not easy to find cheaper small panels that are worth the effort.  Small size also means higher resale value if/when you step up to a larger set up.

Even before searching I was going to say those are high efficiency cells, and I found they do claim ~19% cell and ~15.6% module efficiency. Even now the only way to do better is get the plain front  back-wired cells. If anyone goes this way check if solar power panels are taxable under your State tax codes, be another way to equal/beat mail order.

http://www.grapesolar.com/files/2213/2673/8184/GS-S-100-Fab36_Rev-2.pdf  <--- 100w 36-cell panel

Bruce S

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Re: Isn't that just grape
« Reply #2 on: June 29, 2012, 12:28:19 PM »
Opera;
 I don't know yet, but I soon will, I just got a Sam's versus Costco card  ;D and found them too, I've ordered two.
These will replace the 6 HF panels, being repurposed to my shed .
Bruce S
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dnix71

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Re: Isn't that just grape
« Reply #3 on: June 29, 2012, 06:53:06 PM »
BE CAREFUL. There are at least 2 models of this wattage panel from Grape. One is positive ground and the other negative ground. The positive ground panel may not be compatible with some MPPT's.

http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?productId=203336897&storeId=10051&langId=-1&catalogId=10053&ci_sku=203336897&ci_kw={keyword}&kwd={keyword}&cm_mmc=shopping-_-googleads-_-pla-_-203336897&ci_gpa=pla

"
    Outstanding electrical performance under high temperature and weak light environments
    Can withstand snow and wind loads greater than 30 lbs/ft2
    Unique frame design for easy installation
    Rigorous quality control to meet the highest international standards
    Has Black Frame
    This panel works best when paired with a positive ground capable charge controller
    Positive and Negative leads equipped with MC4 connectors.
    MFG Brand Name : Grape Solar
    MFG Model # : GS-S-100-TS
    MFG Part # : GS-S-100-TS

The one from CostCo is the negative ground standard panel. However, both panels are low Vmax panels, intended for direct charging 12v systems.

OperaHouse

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Re: Isn't that just grape
« Reply #4 on: June 30, 2012, 12:19:20 PM »
I can't for the life of me figure out what a POSITIVE or NEGATIVE GROUND solar panel is except maybe the connectors are reversed.

DanG

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Re: Isn't that just grape
« Reply #5 on: June 30, 2012, 12:40:19 PM »
they put the diodes in backwards?

DamonHD

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Re: Isn't that just grape
« Reply #6 on: June 30, 2012, 04:16:55 PM »
The frame might not be isolated.

Rgds

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dnix71

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Re: Isn't that just grape
« Reply #7 on: June 30, 2012, 04:17:08 PM »
OperaHouse positive grounded panels have fewer corrosion issues than negative grounded panels. The telco and water company use positive ground for the same reason. With the positive panel terminal grounded to the frame there is less corrosion and better efficiency. But this means the panel frame and grounding wires have a potential on them with respect to the earth, so the negative panel wire must be isolated from your house ground which is the earth.

http://www.wind-sun.com/ForumVB/showthread.php?15560-Positive-Ground-vs-Negative-Ground-Solar-Panels

The panel itself has static charges because of the silicon cells themselves are layered. When light strikes the panel the cells become capacitors and the charge field intereferes with the flow of current. So a positive ground panel will have slightly higher efficiency than a negative ground panel. Photomultiplier tubes are normally operated 'backwards' like this, too, because it places the last amp stage at a lower potential to grid supplied earth ground. From the wikipedia article:

Photomultiplier tubes typically utilize 1000 to 2000 volts to accelerate electrons within the chain of dynodes. The most negative voltage is connected to the cathode, and the most positive voltage is connected to the anode. Negative high-voltage supplies (with the positive terminal grounded) are preferred, because this configuration enables the photocurrent to be measured at the low voltage side of the circuit for amplification by subsequent electronic circuits operating at low voltage. Voltages are distributed to the dynodes by a resistive voltage divider, although variations such as active designs (with transistors or diodes) are possible. The divider design, which influences frequency response or rise time, can be selected to suit varying applications. Some instruments that use photomultipliers have provisions to vary the anode voltage to control the gain of the system.

That can cause problems with off-grid systems and with using the panel in a vehicle that is negative ground (everthing since the late 50's).

On a grid-tie inverter your house ground is negative. As long as the inverter completely isolates the pv from the house wiring you are fine. The static drain current flowing from a single panel is probably small enough to ignore, but the drain from a whole roof of panels cannot be safely ignored, either. That drain would look like a ground fault or system short.

All that said, you could hook up a panel anyway you want to, but the efficiency and service life will be shortened if you don't hook it up according to specs.

If you have an off-grid setup, normally you would not ground the battery bank to earth. If you do, this positive frame grounded panel will not work unless you can break the connection from the panel + to the panel frame.

DanG

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Re: Isn't that just grape
« Reply #8 on: June 30, 2012, 04:54:20 PM »
Also - at an $80 premium the + ground Grape panel spec has to be a conscious decision as they are not identically priced, unless their black finished frames all command that $80 add-on cost.

halfcrazy

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Re: Isn't that just grape
« Reply #9 on: June 30, 2012, 05:15:09 PM »
I have found Solar World 230 and 240 watt panels for a buck a watt. Also Suntech for 89 cents



oztules

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Re: Isn't that just grape
« Reply #10 on: July 01, 2012, 09:20:27 AM »
Sorry Dnix, that is not how I understand how solar cells work.

My understanding is this:

Grid tie panels are grounded only if they use grid tie inverters without transformers. This is because the chopping in the mppt causes the cells to have a fluctuating high frequency DC induced into them (from the chopping) and are also directly connected to the grid itself. This can induce a capacitance to the frame, and the inducing current is grid earthed by the Multiple Earth Neutral (MEN) system...... so if it is referenced to ground, it can shock a grounded person touching the frame if it is not grounded.

Those grid tie inverters with the big transformers  (galvanic isolated) are not required to have grounding of any sort, as the frames do not get an induced charge with respect to earth.

The cells are a single slab of crystal. One side is only doped with boron or similar valence element, and the other side of it doped with phosphorous or a similar valence element.... this is not a capacitor... this  can form an electric field ......of only half a volt or so.... it is not static electricity.... it is a diode... just a PN junction diode.

In a mosfet, we can get a capacitance from the gate to the substrate, but that is because it is insulated from the substrate. That is the intrinsic thing about capacitors, electrons do NOT cross the insulated dielectric..... because of course it is insulated.

In a solar cell, getting electrons to cross the pn junction IS the aim of the game and we use the incident photons to get that to happen....... in fact opposite to caps..... ie current flows across the junction..... how can this be a capacitor???

I don't see anything in the multiplier story to help in this. It is a convenience thing that helps the design of the next stage interface.... bit like driving a high side fet compared to a low side fet driver circuit.

What am I missing here. Your fairly sure of your ground from the looks of it, but I just can't see the sense in your argument  at this stage.


Not understanding something here.

If different grounding actually changes something in the real world tests, I would like to know the real reason, but I see no reason to ground panel frames unless they are grid tied without galvanic isolation.....

If MPPT  (HF switching involved) is used with off grid, I could vaguely see that some effect could be transmitted to the frames, but I can't see how this effects the electric field of the cells (compared to temperature say). It won't effect the number of electrons swept across the junction, as that is photon dependent, but maybe... just maybe it could have an effect on the field.... and number of electrons X field voltage is watts even then I remain skeptical....... assuming cell internal resistance remains constant??


Im afraid I'm lost on this one.



.................oztules
« Last Edit: July 01, 2012, 09:31:51 AM by oztules »
Flinders Island Australia


dnix71

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Re: Isn't that just grape
« Reply #12 on: July 01, 2012, 02:39:39 PM »
European regs do not require isolation between the dc and ac sides of a grid-tie inverter. It's cheaper and easier to make one that way. The NEC, however, does requires galvanic isolation.

Panel frames are grounded for lightning protection, normally, and NOT connected to either side of the cell output. These special panels have the positive side of the cell output connected to the frame. The panel frames still have to be earthed somewhere for lightning protection, otherwise a strike would travel through the cells and MPPT/grid-tie inverter.

But now you can't bond the panel frame earth ground to the house ground or anywhere near it, because the house neutral and house ground are already bonded under the NEC. You would be connecting the +DC side of the panel output to the house neutral if you did.

Personally I would stay far away from these panels unless the +DC side and frame connection can easily be removed.


oztules

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Re: Isn't that just grape
« Reply #13 on: July 01, 2012, 04:29:41 PM »
" Personally I would stay far away from these panels unless the +DC side and frame connection can easily be removed."

Ditto
..... and a series string of those panels would be interesting to watch too.... all frames at different potentials????? :o


..............oztules
« Last Edit: July 01, 2012, 06:32:55 PM by oztules »
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