Author Topic: done with my wind turbine  (Read 4624 times)

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carmatic

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done with my wind turbine
« on: May 22, 2012, 02:08:23 PM »
it is a VAWT which is magnetically levitated via a 5 phase alternator with a counter rotating flux compensating magnet layer... i tried to optimize it for maximum energy extraction out of minimum wind speed

this is the magnetic pseudolevitation split barrel VAWT that i have posted here last year, but now i am finally able to get some voltage out of it... the 'pentagrams' you see in the beginning is the wye topology (or perhaps its better called a star topology in this case) floating center 3 stage voltage multiplier ... the voltage straight out of the coils is between 3 to 4 volts at that rate of rotation... there was no wind that day so i had to turn the turbine by hand, and i decided to stop once it reached 8 volts

i have played with the capacitor values on the voltage multiplier and now it outputs 9.5 volts at 1 round per second rotation, which is a little slower than what it was like in this video
« Last Edit: May 22, 2012, 02:31:32 PM by carmatic »

fabricator

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Re: done with my wind turbine
« Reply #1 on: May 22, 2012, 07:52:00 PM »
Great Jumpin Jehosephat!
I aint skeerd of nuthin.......Holy Crap! What was that!!!!!
11 Miles east of Lake Michigan, Ottawa County, Robinson township, (home of the defacto residential wind ban) Michigan, USA.

carmatic

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Re: done with my wind turbine
« Reply #2 on: May 22, 2012, 08:32:40 PM »
yes, pardon the ending, i needed some way to identify myself in the video

i shall try to power a load, most probably a USB light or some other kind of toy through a 5V regulator... the voltage drop would probably be quite significant, even with a low current draw, mainly because each phase has 3 coils of 400 turns of the thinnest transformer wire i could get at the shop... measured resistance across 2 phases is 55 ohms... im hoping that it having 5 phases in parallel would help this situation somewhat

but then again, the highest priority was to get a usable voltage out of the windmill so that it could power the semiconductors in at least some low power electronics

carmatic

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Re: done with my wind turbine
« Reply #3 on: May 24, 2012, 12:25:23 PM »
there was abit of wind today so i decided to do some wind testing...it was dissapointing, partly because my voltage regulator for powering 5V usb devices only actually outputs 4.5v , and in any case i dont have alot of things to plug into it anyway... but the main reason is that it seems that there needs to be more wind than i expect to overcome the cogging
due to the flux coupling between the main and counter-rotating rotor via the coils' iron cores, cogging is inevitable...  here is a source of inefficiency of a levitating alternator, as the rapid changes in angular momentum would send energy via the imperfect mass, geometric and magnetic balance of the rotors into the imperfectly rigid support to be absorbed...
the cogging can be mitigated at high angular velocities by increasing the angular inertia of the counter-rotating rotor i.e. by adding weights to the outside perimeter of the rotor...... since both the rotors' movements are coupled, the smoother the movement of the counter-rotator, the smoother too the movement of the entire wind turbine...
in effect it is 'dampening' the cogging, the reason that the lower rotor counter-rotates is because it is constantly settling into the lowest mechanical and magnetic flux energy state, and this is the same reason why cogging happens... but if the rotor has increased kinetic energy (due to increased mass) , the energy difference due to magnetic flux will be less significant in its movements... if you slow down the secondary rotor, it will cause a torque to slow down the primary rotor, and vice versa if you speed it up... so during a cog, the added angular inertia of the secondary rotor would cancel out more of the sudden speedups and slowdowns... this is also why the wind turbine can 'work through' the cogging by spinning faster, but having a heavier secondary rotor will reduce the post-cogging RPM, and reduce energy loss to structural vibrations

but adding more angular inertia isnt going to help if you are starting from no angular momentum, and the cogging is simply stopping your turbine from turning in the first palce... this would require a fundemental rework of the coupling between the primary and secondary rotors
the lowest energy, least-repulsion state when you overlay a square (the top rotor's 12 magnets divided by 3) over a pentagon (5 phases, 15 coils divided by 3) and a hexagon (the lower rotor's 18 magnets divided by 3) , in both cases, is when the square sits upright... in effect , the wind turbine would tend to 'drag' the alternator and the lower rotor together in circles, this was why i had to tie the alternator's wire to another spike in the ground
 the square's vertices would be at 45, 135, 225 and 315  degrees, and the vertices of the pentagon will be at 0, 72, 144, 216, and 288 degrees... since we are trying to minimize the cogging between the primary rotor and the stator, they are what we will focus on
as you can see, the lower corners of both polygons are the closest to each other, with a difference of 9 degrees, hence provide the shortest pathway out of the cogging
i am thinking of splitting each of the pentagon's vertices into a pair of vertices, offset +9 and -9 degrees from the original vertex, basically having 2 pentagons offset by 18 degrees ...the coupling works by the attraction between the pentagon and the square, so by spreading the attraction to cover the gap between the primary rotor and stator, maybe the cogging can be reduced ... basically, on each coil, rather than the single iron protrusion in the middle as i have now (see https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/561840_10150877241271197_502061196_11576004_1032166382_n.jpg), there should be a pair of protrusions at 3 / 8ths and 5 / 8ths of the length of the coil
« Last Edit: May 24, 2012, 01:22:23 PM by carmatic »

fabricator

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Re: done with my wind turbine
« Reply #4 on: May 25, 2012, 08:46:16 PM »
Those cut on half barrel rigs are pretty much an exercise in futility, but with all that crazy electronics and the counter rotating rotors and stuff, you might just stumble on a flux capacitor and end up in 1863.
I aint skeerd of nuthin.......Holy Crap! What was that!!!!!
11 Miles east of Lake Michigan, Ottawa County, Robinson township, (home of the defacto residential wind ban) Michigan, USA.

snowmass

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Re: done with my wind turbine
« Reply #5 on: May 25, 2012, 11:29:49 PM »
I know this guy, but he's about 149 years old.

fabricator

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Re: done with my wind turbine
« Reply #6 on: May 26, 2012, 08:55:07 AM »
I could believe that.
I aint skeerd of nuthin.......Holy Crap! What was that!!!!!
11 Miles east of Lake Michigan, Ottawa County, Robinson township, (home of the defacto residential wind ban) Michigan, USA.

dave ames

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Re: done with my wind turbine
« Reply #7 on: May 26, 2012, 10:34:15 AM »

done with my wind turbine

It's sad to hear you're done with it :-X

Can see how it can become discouraging with 'out there' designs,.. perhaps go for a more conventional build...one proven to perform as expected.



Best of luck with the tinkering ;)
Cheers, Dave

« Last Edit: May 26, 2012, 10:43:46 AM by dave ames »

electrondady1

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Re: done with my wind turbine
« Reply #8 on: May 26, 2012, 01:17:25 PM »
hello carmatic.
"the highest priority was to get a usable voltage out of the windmill"

if you have access to more plastic barrels consider building more single level savonius windmills along your fence line .
best to have the barrels elevated above the top of the fence.

pick the fence wall that has the strongest prevailing wind and build along the fence so the multiple mills will have the least interference with each other
leave a space between mills as wide as the diameter.
with a configuration like that you can run a multitude of windmills connected with a pulley system, creating a wind wall and use a single alternator,  over driven, to create some useful voltage.
i feel that magnetic levitation is a waste of good magnets.
the friction inherent in a set of good bearings is negligible
counter rotation of the mag rotors is a questionable complexity
in this case iron in the stater is a questionable advantage.

the single layer stater , dual rotor alternator that is most often built on the forum
could produce some power 
you could wind the coils to give the voltage you want
 at the speed you want (pulley dia.)
and increase the torque available by adding more mills
you can never have too much swept area.
good luck!


fabricator

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Re: done with my wind turbine
« Reply #9 on: May 26, 2012, 02:06:50 PM »
True, and you can never have enough plastic barrels to make machine that will equal the output of a conventional axial flux turbine either.
I aint skeerd of nuthin.......Holy Crap! What was that!!!!!
11 Miles east of Lake Michigan, Ottawa County, Robinson township, (home of the defacto residential wind ban) Michigan, USA.

carmatic

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Re: done with my wind turbine
« Reply #10 on: May 27, 2012, 02:24:56 PM »

done with my wind turbine

It's sad to hear you're done with it :-X

Can see how it can become discouraging with 'out there' designs,.. perhaps go for a more conventional build...one proven to perform as expected.



Best of luck with the tinkering ;)
Cheers, Dave
oh no no no, im done as in i have done something, not as in i have given up

:)


hello carmatic.
"the highest priority was to get a usable voltage out of the windmill"

if you have access to more plastic barrels consider building more single level savonius windmills along your fence line .
best to have the barrels elevated above the top of the fence.

pick the fence wall that has the strongest prevailing wind and build along the fence so the multiple mills will have the least interference with each other
leave a space between mills as wide as the diameter.
with a configuration like that you can run a multitude of windmills connected with a pulley system, creating a wind wall and use a single alternator,  over driven, to create some useful voltage.
i feel that magnetic levitation is a waste of good magnets.
the friction inherent in a set of good bearings is negligible
counter rotation of the mag rotors is a questionable complexity
in this case iron in the stater is a questionable advantage.

the single layer stater , dual rotor alternator that is most often built on the forum
could produce some power 
you could wind the coils to give the voltage you want
 at the speed you want (pulley dia.)
and increase the torque available by adding more mills
you can never have too much swept area.
good luck!



the main reason for the magnetic levitation was that i couldnt find a thrust (axial load) bearing that was also sealed, the only sealed bearings which i could find are radial bearings...
the wind wall sounds nice, i read somewhere that if you have VAWTs which rotate in opposite directions next to each other, their 'upwind' sides would reinforce each other and they get less air resistance...  if i could find the right parts like chains, sprockets and sealed bearings, i might try it out... using an off the shelf alternator would be a breeze compared to winding my own coils

the counter-rotating magnets , they compensate for the magnetic levitation's constant flux by breaking up the magnetic field

the point about having iron in the stator is a good one, i am rebuilding it soon with ferrite cores , which would also have a larger volume so as to capture more flux ...in fact there will be no more usage of iron, it has a different magnetic property compared to ferrite... iron has a larger attractive force than ferrite at near-contact ranges , which is detrimental to the magnetic levitation, but less attraction at air-gap distances which is how far it is away from the coils

 i had concerns about the magnetic levitation so i chose to go with smaller cores and larger winds of wires to compensate, but now it ends up as nothing but a static electricity generator, it gives almost no current... so now, the priority has shifted to creating usable power , not just static voltage
this time, now that i know the magnets are strong enough to lift the barrels and stuff even when there is the alternator in place, i shall use thicker gauge of wire and less turns with the larger cores, hopefully to give the same voltage but at a much lower internal resistance... using the same wires , i hope to run 2 parallel strands of 50 turns, which should give me 16 times less resistance compared to what i have now....  about 2 ohms compared to 32 ohms in each phase
the larger magnetic permeability of ferrite, as well as the larger size of the cores, should mean i dont have to use as many turns of wire...
also, it should mean that i can do without the T-shaped iron elements, which is the main source of cogging and since they are not part of the coils, they are also a major eddy current energy loss

carmatic

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Re: done with my wind turbine
« Reply #11 on: May 27, 2012, 02:38:38 PM »
Those cut on half barrel rigs are pretty much an exercise in futility, but with all that crazy electronics and the counter rotating rotors and stuff, you might just stumble on a flux capacitor and end up in 1863.

i have set out to try and build a VAWT-specific alternator, since i have seen that some VAWT's are magnetically levitated, and the same magnets which do the levitating look like they are halfway to an alternator

i couldnt get myself a Darreius blade turbine, so the best i could do was improvise with the cut on half barrels.... if i could get my hands on a Darreius, especially one large enough to be as heavy as those barrels, it would make me really happy indeed... as it is now, i cant even keep the windmill pitched outside since its on public property, it has to be taken back in by the end of the day... it was only the 4th time in a year that ive pitched the windmill, everytime it was only for just long enough to do some testing... there wouldnt be much point keeping it out anyway since there is hardly any wind here, but theres always the odd day when theres enough wind to have some free electricity out of a properly built and functioning wind turbine, and that is a day i look forward to once i get my new coils and alternator built
« Last Edit: May 27, 2012, 02:59:18 PM by carmatic »

carmatic

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not so done with my wind turbine yet!
« Reply #12 on: July 02, 2012, 12:06:52 PM »
today i have finally put together the ferrite-core rebuild of the alternator , where the only paramagnetic elements are the ferrite cores themselves... without the 'control elements' to ensure the counter rotation of the secondary rotor, the cogging has practically entirely dissapeared, it is turning much smoother than i anticipated ... more surprisingly, the counter rotating action is still there, solely by the influence of the ferrite cores... i have also used less turns with a thicker gauge wire, since the previous attempt had too much internal resistance to provide any power, and the higher material permeability and the larger volume of the cores should make up for the reduced number of turns


hopefully i will get to test the power output in the next few days