Alcaline fuel cell

[allenbee]

Bacon's fuel cell - looks like an easy to make cell .
For home use , who needs the cost of all the fancy equipment to make Hydrogen / Oxygen and pumps for automation ?

You cannot grow a garden if you don't put SOME water and "stuff" an time in it .
Right ?

[Frank S]

Allen you may be reading the summery wrong.
 the way the Bacon cell works if by the recombining of pure oxygen and Hydrogen Via an alkaline solution like potassium hydroxide with nickle or platinum as the electrodes . the application of the gases under high pressure  reduced or prevented cathode flooding. water & heat were the  by products along with electricity out put
   

[allenbee]

Thanks Frank , my understanding was that the hydrogen one side and the oxygen the other , just had to bubble around the electrodes , like "feeding" them . I like the use of potassium hydroxide because it can be made in the bush .(lye - from wood ash an water) , and the "story" that a platinum plated Nickel electrode doesn't get eaten away .                                   

I appreciate straight talk , as all Ive mentioned here is from misleading "bull shooters" .
Im looking for a manually operated fuel cell (or any device) , thats ONLY job - is to recharge two ordinary 12v car batteries , in ANY weather at any time .

At the moment , im trying to get more info on the Chinese army's "Metal cell" battery , that is recharged out in the field by topping up with urine and salt.

[Frank S]

I believe this is what you are referring to



The MetalCell is a portable battery ready for use anywhere. The battery allows you to generate energy for electronics like flashlights or even laptops from saltwater. Or, if there is no salt water about, it can use urine.



 
The MetalCell is said to have been conceived in South Korea for use by the military. The battery works by exploiting the chemical properties of magnesium. The magnesium plates react with the sodium in the salt water (or urine) which creates low voltage current. This electrochemical reaction can then be used to charge up any equipment, particularly equipment where there's no immediate power source. Electronics are known for running out of power when it's most inconvenient and when there is no chance to recharge them. For the military, where the problem can be life threatening, this battery is meant to be an emergency back up that can run from materials a soldier has to hand (be that saltwater or urine!).

The MetalCell could be extremely useful for home use in areas where a sudden cut of power is likely. The battery can be stored away safely for years, as the internal workings will not degrade with age. Due to it's compact size, a number of batteries can be stored away in even small storage cupboards. As soon as you add saltwater or urine to the battery, it's ready for use. In theory, the battery can run a laptop for around 4 hours. The battery will require refills of saltwater or urine to keep charge going, though eventually the magnesium plates would also require replacement.
Fitted with magnesium plates inside, the MetalCell can be charged up with nothing more than the addition of saltwater. The sodium in the salt reacts with the magnesium to create a dose of low-voltage power that can power up laptop, a flashlight, night vision specs, etc. when no other source is available. The output can keep a laptop humming for more than four hours and can be recharged with fresh saltwater until the magnesium begins to deteriorate.
 Here is what I found on how to make one
"All jokes [about] urine aside, what is needed are low-cost batteries. …" he said. "The other neat thing about this is the fact that it's basically a biodegradable battery."

Urine Power

To make the battery, Lee and his colleagues soaked a piece of paper in a solution of copper chloride and sandwiched it between strips of magnesium and copper. This sandwich was then laminated between two sheets of transparent plastic.

When a drop of urine is added to the paper through a slit in the plastic, a chemical reaction takes place that produces electricity, Lee said.

The prototype battery produced about 1.5 volts, the same as a standard AA battery, and runs for about 90 minutes. Researchers said the power, voltage, and lifetime of the battery can be improved by adjusting the geometry and materials used.
 I have an Idea for this; and will model something later

[allenbee]

Yep - dats the one . Well done for the info I couldn't find .                                                  This looks good , as battery charging takes far less power input , than a laptop !                    4 hrs and recharge again - noooo problem .

Actually .... I can recharge 4 times in 2 hrs .... while settling a 6 pack . ha ha.
So ill try magnesium , but a sensible move is to buy one of these batteries to see its brains .

The best results Ive had so far ( after hundreds of experiments), is with food tins (like baked beans , sweetcorn etc), and just fill with lye , and using a copper electrode.                    Looks like the tins will last for months , and no effect on the copper .                                    (I threw the tins in the fire , to remove the protective coatings) .                                          With the meter - touch the tin and the other one the copper , and its a good fuel cell .       I'm going to build them in fours to get more amps , and about 24 tins altogether .

[Frank S]

OK here is what I was thinking  since I haven't had the time to construct a cad model
build a box the size is  not much importance just yet
 but say 150mm wide 420mm long 200 mm deep. inside dimensions  sectioned in 60 mm  cells with 10 mm bulkheads  each cell needs to be  leak proof this cold be out of hard wood plastic or any non metallic even clay and kiln fired
 construct a wood frame to hold the cathode & anode plates. alternate them as in a regular lead acid battery.
 smelt some magnesium and copper or Iron plates 1 to 2 mm thick sized t o fit the cells vertically use a non conductive porous pr perforated  media like paper or plastic HA,HA I've always wanted to say that,
hang the plate packs from the frame make after pre-soldering a conductor strip from cathode to cathode  etc and anode to anode etc. arrange the cell packs to fit in the jar care to make sure no cathodes and anodes are shorted to each other .
 fill the cells with  a brine solution when you want energy lower the frame with the cells into the jar when discharged or not needed as power remove the plates and lower them into a distilled water bath
 This brings to mind something I read  on the subject of WWI submarines where this sub was forced to stay submerged too long the batteries were being depleted CO2 was building up so the captain ordered the batteries opened and washed then refilled it gave them enough time to escape from their position. Now I don't remember if this was a fictional story or one based on facts.
 which ever it is worth having a go at experimenting with a small real life model     
 

[allenbee]

Hello WOOLIVER – join this chat , and ignore the negative replies !
 There are others however -  who can save us a lot of time , frustration and money – by giving a good technical straight foreword reply . So … that's good !                                                                                                                                                                                                 
I look at things differently perhaps .
For instance ; to  me the mass produced primary battery KILLED home made wet sell development .
So the rich get richer an the poor poorer and we HAVE TO buy “their” batteries .

Now I would like to ask what will seem to be an incredibly stupid question ;
“How many 12v primary (throw away)batteries  are needed – to power a lead acid battery charger for 10 hrs , to charge a bank of lead acid batteries” ?
 THAT… is the question !!!   Any buyers ?

Once we know that – then we know what  voltage / amps etc ,  is required for a largish “fuel cell” battery , BECAUSE the fuel cell battery …can be manually recharged and NOT a throw away . Ideally "topped up" 3 times every 4 hrs - seems fine .
Does it need to go through an inverter ? Or is there a good battery charger that works from 12v DC ?

I visualize the “fuel cell” inhouse battery , about the size of 4 truck batteries .
NB ; I am NOT trying to run a WHOLE HOUSE with this – but simply for light , (laptop or TV perhaps) ,music and cell charge . BASIC SUPPLY – Like for an outside “granny cottage” .

Hey Frank , I googled “aluminum copper battery” and found this good site . “The salty science of the Aluminum AIR battery” . ((A lady.... good teacher for dis ol'e fart !) .
The other interesting one is  "BATTERY “ by arizonaenergy” , but his claim of 1.5v / cell is bull !!! Unless I'm reading wrong again .

[XeonPony]

I designed a fuel cell that in theory will crank out 3.6v with nothing more then air bubling through it.

Aluminium cathode gold anode, MaganesOxide H2O as electrolyte, it runs of the oxigen in the air.

been a long time since I was working on the idea so lost all the finer details to time. but there ya go, you have the basics free of charge!

the tank is thick aluminium, filled with an aquies maganes oxide electro light with a high suface area gold grid inside that the oxygen is bubbled over.

[allenbee]

I know of someone who designed a fuel cell that in theory - is so strong it can blow the world up.
It's proof of perpetual motion !
Its called an atom .

So there ya go - the basics free of charge .

Actually , in my scrapyard searches Ive never come across gold yet .                                           I think your idea is good for America only - go for it .

[XeonPony]

I am not joking here, not perpetual either, the anod can be gold plated wire, it needn't be solid. I gave you the raw concept shouldn't take you much to rehash the finer points.

You wanted a long lived batery that didn't need recharging, there you have it.

The alu is the consumable, easily replaced as is the air.

I got to the point of machining the alu cells befor priorities in life got radicaly shifted.

[Frank S]

For something like he is describing I don't see why an anode made of copper or possibly nickle plated mesh or just take a bit of copper wire and make a woven mat then use every thing else maybe for the vessel/ cathode use an aluminum cooking pot the copper would not have the same properties & conductivity of gold so output would be reduced I would think with the conductivity properties or platinum there would be higher results but platinum is as expensive as gold most of the time
 
  I am positive that several would need to be connected several in series parallel to get voltage and enough amperage to power appliances Efficient fuel cells have been a topic of investigation & research for  decades
 the Bacon cell seems to still top out on the lists though
 here is a study brief that may help
http://rutgersscholar.rutgers.edu/volume04/simmjing/simmjing.htm

[allenbee]

Ahhh thank you man , I thought you were mocking me . Sorry bro !                                   Now I will make a small cell your way , to see if its better than the average half volt I'm getting from almost any combination .

I agree fully - that bubbling air through water does give oxygen , and so do the fish in the tank agree. ha ha .

Soooo - now a micky mouse fuel cell runs a small motor that pumps air .                                  The air then goes through the main fuel cell that "somehow" (with a little bit of help from the electronic professors) can trickle charge a lead/acid battery.

Ill let ya all know how the "baby steps" are goin .
Join the "freedom gang"!

Shot for input Frank - we was typing at da same time !

[Frank S]

Allen I don't start mocking people or cutting down their experiments until I know them well or have sat and had a few adult beverage or a coffee with them. Or its something that I have personally done an Edison on and found the 1  thing to do out of 1000 ways not to do it 

[XeonPony]

The origonal design of the system was going to be used with pure O2 in compressed cylinders as a back up system, so a mod on that end is workable by using an old auto air con compressor on a wind mill, it can compress an old propan cylinder with air that is bled through a needle valve as a steady trickle.

I wonder if I still have all the papper work on it. the biggest one I was trying to figure out is effective oxygen dispersion inside the cell to ensure max contact and utilization.

and if you can get the sucker to run post the resualts, I totaly forgot about that cell been so long or at least seams like it, just may have to re-invest when I have a stable place again! make a perfect off grid bank!

Sadly the Anod has to be gold plated I can't remeber why now but I do remember it had to be.

[Frank S]

The origonal design of the system was going to be used with pure O2 in compressed cylinders as a back up system, so a mod on that end is workable by using an old auto air con compressor on a wind mill, it can compress an old propan cylinder with air that is bled through a needle valve as a steady trickle.

I wonder if I still have all the papper work on it. the biggest one I was trying to figure out is effective oxygen dispersion inside the cell to ensure max contact and utilization.

and if you can get the sucker to run post the resualts, I totaly forgot about that cell been so long or at least seams like it, just may have to re-invest when I have a stable place again! make a perfect off grid bank!

Sadly the Anod has to be gold plated I can't remeber why now but I do remember it had to be.

since you said pure o2 wouldn't this require an oxygen generator system to remove the nitrogen and other gases or were you relying on ther being enough oxygen in compressed air bubbling through the MaganesOxide H2O solution I am wondering if a 3rd catalyst might not be required such a potassium clorate  or hydrogen peroxide its been nearly 43 years since I took chemistry so I don't remember all of what I thought I had learned back then

[allenbee]

Come on !!! Wheres the experts to tell us were wasting our time ?
Seems like theres lots of home experimenting to be done here .

Different strokes for different folks .
You two are going for the best Volt/amp output / cell , and self charing . Cool !
I'm going for the simplest "Aluminum air" battery , needing new salt water only for recharge , but lots of small cells in series and some in parallel for more amps .

Again - the stupid question , needs an answer ;                                                               

What is the effect on a flat 12v lead/acid battery , when connected directly (parallel or series?) to two fully charged ones ?                                                                                           

Can the regulators be as simple , as a cars regulated safe DC "fast" charging supply ?         One hour driving an the "flattish"battery is fully charged again .... in my farm experience !

[Frank S]

 Allen I can tell you what will happen if you put 2 brand new batteries in a truck that has 3 all in parallel if #3 is dead flat you might get the truck started one time but if #3 won't charge or you have a weak alt the next time you try to start the truck you better have the phone # of someone to come and give you a jump.
 even if #3 were a good bat and your alt was not working you would still need a jump.
 I think you are thinking along the terms of 3 glasses of water 2 full 1 empty if you pour from the 2 into the one you would have 3 @ 2/3rds or 5 glasses 4 f 1 e to get 5 @ 4/5ths  it doesn't work out that way it takes more energy to to charge up a battery than it stores how much more depends on the size of the battery being charged
 with a way to regulate the output v to 14.6 with if you had 2 fully charged 100 AH batteries in series you should be able  charge up a single 100 Ah battery. But I don't know if it would charge up fully better to have 4or more  in series parallel.
  the best way would be to get a large variable Resister capable of handling the input of 28v @ 100 amps and an output of 14.6 then discharge 1 battery to 10.6v considered dead then charge it back up from the 2 when it has a disconnected reading of 14.6 take the reading of the host batteries
 If you had a lot of charged batteries you could use parallel only because to bring a single 100ah battery up from a bank of 1000Ah the drain wouldn't be all that much "BUT" you don't want to zap a discharged battery with that much potential. I've seen the caps blown right off a slightly discharged battery in trucks when new batteries were connected
 The US Army used to do it all of the time to charge batteries for radios when the noise of a generator could compromise their position 

[XeonPony]

The origonal design of the system was going to be used with pure O2 in compressed cylinders as a back up system, so a mod on that end is workable by using an old auto air con compressor on a wind mill, it can compress an old propan cylinder with air that is bled through a needle valve as a steady trickle.

I wonder if I still have all the papper work on it. the biggest one I was trying to figure out is effective oxygen dispersion inside the cell to ensure max contact and utilization.

and if you can get the sucker to run post the resualts, I totaly forgot about that cell been so long or at least seams like it, just may have to re-invest when I have a stable place again! make a perfect off grid bank!

Sadly the Anod has to be gold plated I can't remeber why now but I do remember it had to be.

since you said pure o2 wouldn't this require an oxygen generator system to remove the nitrogen and other gases or were you relying on ther being enough oxygen in compressed air bubbling through the MaganesOxide H2O solution I am wondering if a 3rd catalyst might not be required such a potassium clorate  or hydrogen peroxide its been nearly 43 years since I took chemistry so I don't remember all of what I thought I had learned back then

The pure O2 was to maximize out put and make electrolyte cleaning unrequired, but the fact at the times I had tanks of medical grade O2 on hand, air bubling though should do fine with reduced out put, the cell was the size of a 2 L bottle and 6 of them in my calces power my smallish server core no problem.

[Harold in CR]

 Great discussion on a self built battery.

 Here's a link to purchase the Metalcell, with a little more specs info.

 http://www.alibaba.com/product-free/101662196/Magnesium_air_fuel_cell.html

 

[allenbee]

Shot Harold ! Thats the more detail I needed , and I see it uses Potassium Hydroxide as well .  Now it's making sense .

I have sent an inquiry , and it looks like this is going to be my next toy .

Hey Frank an Pony ; search that sights products - incredibly interesting things !
Theres even a "Bacon" kitt fuel cell .
Looks like separate oxygen and hydrogen cylinders , small pump , container , electrodes etc .  A working example .

[allenbee]

Well !! I received a very "cagey" reply from Mr Dooingsue !
My inquiry was not about the magnesium salt water battery , but about the Aluminum one they "kinda" mentioned .

Ya see - for the magnesium one you need to buy their electrodes , but Aluminum - is all the beer an cool drink.... "dumping" cans !

Anyway - I liked Rich Hagan's post about "coin battery" , and do look at the Edison wet cell . Aint no fool dat guy !
Electrolyte ; lye from wood ash .

Soooooo - it's 2012 now , Aluminum is easy to get but Zink is not .                                  Potassium Hydroxide is easy to make - Magnesium electrolyte is not .

Power for the poor .

[Harold in CR]

 Actually, Zinc is fairly easy to get, but, I follow your feelings about the Aluminum. I'm hoping something comes out of this, that's affordable. 

[allenbee]

In what form is Zink easy to get ?
Remember - to be affordable it must be scrapyard stuff .
Here I only know about old galvanised roof sheeting at scrapyards !
That layer of Zink gets eaten off in one day in certain battery applications .

[Harold in CR]

 It's used as corrosion protection on boats. Can be bought in large bricks for BIG boats, or, smaller pieces for smaller boats.

 One example. Live near the ocean, or, have a friend that does ??

  http://www.rotometals.com/product-p/zincingots.htm

 Scrap anodes lay all over the boat repair yards and can be had for the picking up. OR, at least they did just a few years ago. I have seen nearly half anodes thrown away, because, once the boat is out of the water, it's the easiest way to inspect and replace them. Some are pretty damn big, like on work boats and such.

[XeonPony]

yup still is tossed out as scrap, at least here on the not so sunny coast.

Does wonders too if ya bolt em on to your truck chasis if you live around the ocean!

[allenbee]

Good info ... thanks .
For my project however , I have to stay with easy to get "free" fuels , so all my experimenting is with Aluminum and jam tins . Im getting one volt now , but the amps are low .

Does anyone know what is being lost in a general purpose "D" (1.5V) primary cell - when its gone flat ?
I opened this flat torch battery , and the zinc cup was still fine , the graphite rod was like new , and the electrolyte was like compressed charcoal .
What has been deleted ?

[XeonPony]

Usualy the patasium hydroxid/chloride has been saturated with zink ions if I do rightly recall

[allenbee]

So if it was an open top battery , and the electrolyte was wet , then just replace it .... right ? My battle is to find a "McGiver" electrolyte -when he's stuck in the jungle with Jane.                Lye an salt water mixed with what ?

[XeonPony]

not about em perticuler ones but some use Maganes oxide and it simply be washed as it isn't soluable in water

[definitionofis]

Does anyone know what is being lost in a general purpose "D" (1.5V) primary cell - when its gone flat ?
I opened this flat torch battery , and the zinc cup was still fine , the graphite rod was like new , and the electrolyte was like compressed charcoal .
What has been deleted ?

The zinc is the consumable.  I have seen them very corroded. Maybe the electrolyte dried out and disconnected from the electrodes before the zinc was consumed.

I would try adding a few drops of water and repress the black powder into the electrodes.
I think the water has some ammonium chloride dissolved in it and it saturates the black manganese dioxide powder. I do not know if the ammonium chloride is consumed.

[allenbee]

Thanks man . Has anyone any idea what the common form of manganese dioxide is , or how to make it ? Is it anthracite .

[definitionofis]

I looked at the reaction just now: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zinc%E2%80%93carbon_battery


Ammonium chloride and manganese dioxide are all consumed, as well as the zinc. Only the graphite is unchanged.

So it could be that your cell had more zinc available before it died, and not enough ammonium chloride or not enough manganese dioxide to completely consume the zinc.

Check out safety sheets before fooling around with some chemicals:
http://www.ctmsupplies.hemscott.net/Manganese%20Dioxide.htm

It is not anthracite.  I was thinking of a way to recover it from old cells. But, heating it is dangerous.

[allenbee]

I'm trying to make a battery where the top is easily removed , and just top up whatever is deleted . A fuel cell .
Problem is - compared to the general purpose "D" primary cell , I cant get near 1 1/2 v , and so far - not even 1/4 of the amps .