Small micro hydro installation

[salty]

Greetings, first time poster here. I have a small micro hydro installation which I think could be improved on. My source is a lake giving me a head of 62 psi. My penstock is 1400 ft of mostly 2inch black poly. I'm using a 20 blue spoon turgo runner coupled to an automotive alternator which I have replaced the electro magnet with a donut shaped neo magnet ( 1in.x2in.x 3in.).I added a second jet (2@ 0.1875in.)but this didn't seem to improve efficiency. I am getting 5 amps @ 12v. I know I could be doing better because my nieghbour  who I share the waterline with gets 10 A with his water baby. He is about 200ft. closer to source than me.My best 5 A output is when I'm the only user of the water line.
Any suggestions on improving efficiency short of replacing the penstock?

[Frank S]

you stated that your neighbor is closer to the source are you sharing the same supply line or if not is his larger than yours or if the same size how many if any elbows are in your line compared to his? without any more info you could be suffering from flow resistance 
 there is a handy calculator on this site
 the guy is also a long time member here I think
http://www.borstengineeringconstruction.com/Calculators.html

[dbcollen]

what is you dynamic pressure (pressure at the turbine when running)?

[salty]

I can't say precisely what the dynamic pressure is as my pressure guage froze up awhile back . The waterline past my neighbours is a straight run ,slight reduction in diameter but a few pounds more of head. I think I am looking for improvements to the generator. The waterline is what it is considering the supply source and our budget. I've been wondering if it would do any good to rewind the alternators stator? Is a small induction motor suitable for this small an application?

[joestue]

what is the optimum rpm for your turgo wheel?

[Frank S]

I can't say precisely what the dynamic pressure is as my pressure guage froze up awhile back . The waterline past my neighbours is a straight run ,slight reduction in diameter but a few pounds more of head. I think I am looking for improvements to the generator. The waterline is what it is considering the supply source and our budget. I've been wondering if it would do any good to rewind the alternators stator? Is a small induction motor suitable for this small an application?

 the reduction in diameter is a bad thing even with an increase of head  for instance
 a 4" (12,56"/2) pipe will free flow without length exactly 4 times as much as a 2" (3.14"/2) or a 3" (7.06"/2) will flow 2 times as much as a 2"
 a 2.5"( 4.9"/2)will flow 1.5 times as much now couple that to the resistance over the length then any slight increase in head pressure is lost

[joestue]

@salty you should be able to pull 30 gpm at 51 psi and get 250 watts of electrical power at 50% system efficiency.
if both the turbine and alternator are each 50% efficient that would explain the ~60 watts electrical power you're getting.



@Frank, it is more of a cubic function. 4 inch pipe would get him 190 gpm for the same 11 psi drop.

[taylorp035]

Minimizing any sharp bends before and after the turbine will help.  A larger diameter of pipe will do a lot of good too as other people have stated.

[thirteen]

any possibility of shutoff valves restricting the flow. I like ball valves or using gate valves larger than the pipe. Some shutoff valves will restrict the flow. A lot of valves are designed for preasure not free flow. Just something to look at.

[Frank S]

@salty you should be able to pull 30 gpm at 51 psi and get 250 watts of electrical power at 50% system efficiency.
if both the turbine and alternator are each 50% efficient that would explain the ~60 watts electrical power you're getting.



@Frank, it is more of a cubic function. 4 inch pipe would get him 190 gpm for the same 11 psi drop.

I said ignoring any length all I stated was the ratio of an orifice of those sizes merely a function of area not regarding pressures or resistance due to surface roughness or lengths 

[salty]

Of course I have tried to eliminate bends,valves ,reductions, etc. in my waterline. The turbine setup is good I think with 2 jets directed at the runner and ample space for the discharge to escape. The fact remains that the waterbaby 200 ft upstream gets double the output and I don't think the inefficiency is in the waterline. That leaves the alternator and transmission line which is 8 or 10 ga. copper approx. 40 ft long.

[Frank S]

Of course I have tried to eliminate bends,valves ,reductions, etc. in my waterline. The turbine setup is good I think with 2 jets directed at the runner and ample space for the discharge to escape. The fact remains that the waterbaby 200 ft upstream gets double the output and I don't think the inefficiency is in the waterline. That leaves the alternator and transmission line which is 8 or 10 ga. copper approx. 40 ft long.

one way to isolate without any cost would be if you could parallel a a 10 or 12 ga extension cord since it is only 40 ft you probably have one of those laying around

[dbcollen]

Without knowing your dynamic pressure there is no way to help you. A pressure guage for a well pump should be under $5.

[hydrosun]

i agree apressure guage to see how much potential you have and checking voltage at hydro and battery will tell you where improvements can be made. If your voltage is close at the hydro andbattery then doing any wire upgrades would be pointless.  if you have lost most of your pressure in the lines then a better alternator will make a small improvement. Have you tried different sized nozzles? sometimes smaller nozzles will lose less pressure and actually produce more power with less water. Apressure guage will help you see what is going on.
Chris

[thirteen]

I'm sure you have looked at everything a hundred times. But as a thought could one of the two nozzles be worn or not matching the other nozzle. Just a thought, as long as the supply of water is there with two nozzles you should have improved some. 

[salty]

I've tried various nozzle combinations and yes when you go too large you start losing power. It isn't a matter of wear or I would of seen a drop in power over time. Voltage at amperage is about the same at alternator and battery.

[dbcollen]

If voltage is the same at the alt and the batts then the wire is not your problem.

[dbcollen]

I'm sure you have looked at everything a hundred times. But as a thought could one of the two nozzles be worn or not matching the other nozzle. Just a thought, as long as the supply of water is there with two nozzles you should have improved some.

The size of individual jets makes no difference as long as you don't have one so big it floods the cup. A small and large jet running at the same time will have the same jet velocity and will work together fine.