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SparWeb

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Re: New Tower
« Reply #33 on: July 18, 2012, 12:02:41 PM »
Chris,
I haven't chimed in but I've been watching.  Towers always seem to attract my attention.

Thanks for putting together the posting, especially for including the cost of the project and material details.  This content will be informative to folks who are getting serious about raising productive turbines.

A few days ago I had the opportunity to evaluate a Trylon T500 tower for my next WT project, so I sat down with laptop, sketchpad, measuring tape, and calipers, and worked it out on the spot.  It was disassembled, on the ground, ready to pick up, and so tempting!  But I had to be sure that it could take the loads a 14-16 foot turbine would put on it, and basic tower specs just don't tell what I need to know. 

A couple of hours later I came up for air, with such slender margins of safety that I couldn't justify using this tower for a turbine.  Of course it's possible to reinforce a tower with guy wires, but what's the point of getting a self-supporting tower if you put wires on it!?  :)  More specifically, I found that at 50 feet, the margins of safety were acceptable, but any new tower on my property should be 70 feet tall or more.  I'm in a sort-of arms race with my trees and the old tower is now below the tree-tops.

I'm tempted to make a forum posting out of the work, because it will illustrate how even a very beefy tower may not be suitable for WT use, when the dynamic turbine loads are considered (instead of the typical antenna loads that are quoted on Trylon/Rohn/etc. tower specifications).  Which goes to show why you need a bad-ass tower like you've got there now.

Again, nice work, what a fun project!
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ChrisOlson

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Re: New Tower
« Reply #34 on: July 18, 2012, 01:04:13 PM »
Spar, I put this 80 footer up because of our township's ordinance prohibiting towers with guy wires.  I replaced a 72 foot tower that was originally designed as free-standing but for a smaller less powerful turbine.  I had added guy wires to it for the larger machines.  I submitted engineering specs and tower and foundation drawings for it when it was originally put up.  But it was not "grandfathered in" by adding guy wires to it for a larger turbine.

I looked at various commercially available tower options, but virtually no tower manufacturer will supply an engineering approval to use their towers for wind turbines.  And for good reason - most of them (aside from the Rohn SSV) are not suitable for wind turbines.

This tower is 460 lbs heavier than a Rohn SSV80, even though it uses the same basic design.  Rohn will not allow more than a 5 foot mast on the SSV and that's because the top sections of the SSV are too light.  For smaller wind turbines (3-5 meters) you need that mast to get blade tip clearance because the top of the lattice still forms an equilateral triangle with 24" sides.  It would require a radical re-design of the turbine to get blade clearance, since my turbines do not have as much forward rotor lead as, say, a Bergey Excel.  So I had to add extra iron to the tower, that a SSV does not have,  to support that 8 foot mast.  Most of that extra weight is in the columns, or legs.  And I used 55 Kpsi mechanical tubing for the columns, where a SSV uses 33 Kpsi structural tubing.

This tower is designed and certified to meet Revision G, which now has 90 mph survival, 3 second gust, as the minimum requirement.  It could handle a larger turbine than 3 kW rated output, but not at 80 feet height with the foundation it has, and definitely not with an 8 foot mast on it.

More and more townships are passing these tower ordinances, and almost all of them now require an engineering certification on the tower, and foundation approved by a state licensed engineer.  And that certification is only good for one particular turbine  - if you decide to throw a different turbine on it you have to go thru the entire process again, including FEA on the tower, and re-certify it.  And to certify a tower for wind power, it requires certified loading data for the turbine, also done by a licensed engineer.

As I stated earlier, the old standby guyed pipe tower that most homebuilders use will eventually become a dinosaur.  A good chunk of the $12,000 cost of this tower is in engineering work, and paperwork and drawings, that have to filed with the township, county and state to get it approved.

Experienced wind power people already know this, but for the newbies looking at wind power the tower is the single most expensive item involved with installing a wind power system.
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Re: New Tower
« Reply #35 on: July 18, 2012, 02:18:55 PM »
Hmmm, I've been going through all this for that last four years as you well know, but there the only permits that I need come from the township, neither the county nor state has the power to enforce zoning ordinances, but the township does have the power to sick the county sheriff on you if you don't comply after a certain amount of time and fines, and you they WILL issue a warrant and you will go to jail unless you comply.
Did you look into ARE towers? They have an office in Minnesota but the towers are built in China to meet American specs, if you give them the turbine specs they will design you a tower or use one they already build for someone else that meets or exceeds the specs, they build towers for a lot of turbine builders all over the world.
They are very reasonable on lattice towers, I think my quote for a seventy footer was $3800 bux with the template and baseplate, anchor bolts and rerod and the hinges, and certified tower and foundation drawings for all 50 states, they use Tower engineering professionals out of North Carolina for all the engineering, but no gin, I was going to build the gin.
the problem is shipping, if you want it right away the shipping can be close to twice the tower price, but if you can wait until they are shipping several containers the shipping can be half the price of the tower.
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ChrisOlson

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Re: New Tower
« Reply #36 on: July 18, 2012, 03:45:54 PM »
A.R.E. does not built lattice towers.  They build monopoles.  I prefer lattice free standing towers because monopoles move too much under high loading for my tastes with a side furling turbine on it.  For turbines that use variable pitch for power regulation, and therefore are not affected as much by tower movement, they're probably fine.

The foundation is also quite expensive for a monopole with anchor bolts that are typically imbedded in 10 feet or better of concrete.

A recent tariff was imposed on wind turbine towers like A.R.E. that are imported from China.  That tower that cost $3,800 before is probably $8 Grand now.
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Re: New Tower
« Reply #37 on: July 18, 2012, 07:28:48 PM »
The last time I talked to Andy from ARE they were seriously considering building a fabricating facility somewhere in the US.
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ChrisOlson

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Re: New Tower
« Reply #38 on: July 18, 2012, 09:17:05 PM »
A.R.E. has an office in St Paul, MN.  But at this time they still do not build towers in the US.

The Chinese towers were/are being built with government subsidy in China, allowing them to be imported here and sold below cost.  Trinity Structural Towers, DMI Industries, Katana Summit and Broadwind Energy - all US manufacturers - filed a trade complaint last October and the tariff went into effect in May.

Perhaps the tariff will cause A.R.E to reconsider the outsourcing of their tower construction to China because there's plenty of qualified Americans who could build those towers here.
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SparWeb

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Re: New Tower
« Reply #39 on: July 19, 2012, 12:49:38 AM »
Rohn will also discuss putting WT's on some of their mono-pole freestanding towers, but those cost a lot more than the prices being bandied around so far.

The whole movement toward certified WT's (the SWCC) should be given the respect it is due, however the effect on homebuilders like us will be difficulty.  Regulations will create an "engineering burden" so to speak, which wouldn't daunt some of us, but most other folks are hardly trained for that sort of thing.  The people with can-do attitude and ability aren't always those who can sway the people in suits and ties.  That will be a loss, not just for those who have to get used to a new normal, but the new people who could bring creativity or new ideas to the art.  Now there's a big obstacle.  So more information of the issues around towers, the safety concerns, how they work and what WT's do to them would be a good subject to expand upon and add to the forum (if the audience out there would benefit from it).

For me, thankfully, there's no such barrier yet.  I simply want to conserve space on my property and avoiding guy-wires is one way to grow without sprawling.  Thankfully I already do have a tower up, so it should help "grandfather" the next project, if the municipality does enact rules. 

Chris, that's an interesting use of the word "grandfathered".  I use the word differently.  I wonder if that's common in the US.  I say "grandfathered" in the terms of new rules versus old rules - new things must meet the new rules, and the old stuff will remain, as long as they meet the old rules from their day: they're "grandfathered". 
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fabricator

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Re: New Tower
« Reply #40 on: July 19, 2012, 12:42:38 PM »
Rohn will now only sell towers to certified turbine manufacturers, they will not sell a tower to the general public any more.
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11 Miles east of Lake Michigan, Ottawa County, Robinson township, (home of the defacto residential wind ban) Michigan, USA.

ChrisOlson

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Re: New Tower
« Reply #41 on: July 19, 2012, 03:01:50 PM »
Rohn will sell you a tower.  They just won't provide an engineering certification that says it's suitable for a wind turbine.

Since Revision G came out there is virtually none of the tower manufacturers that will.  Even Critical Towers, who used to exclusively build custom self-supporting lattice towers for wind turbines, quit building them.  And for good reason - look at the cost I got in a 80 footer that meets the standard for wind turbine duty.  A self-supporting lattice tower for antenna duty is less than half the cost.  The sales aren't there to justify it for wind turbines.

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« Last Edit: July 19, 2012, 03:06:32 PM by ChrisOlson »

ChrisOlson

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Re: New Tower
« Reply #42 on: July 19, 2012, 10:37:18 PM »
Well, this new tower project is done.  There's always the little details.  My steel shipment that I usually get on Wednesdays came today.  So I lowered the tower and welded the struts on the mast, plus welded the anemometer arm on.

I finished painting the tower while it was down, got the gin off it after it was raised again.  Then fix and re-seed the lawn where I dug it all up over the last couple weeks.  Still have to put the leg brace on it but it was getting dark already by the time I got the lawn done.  So I'll put the brace on in the morning and this project is done!

So there it is - a 80 foot self-supporting lattice wind turbine tower.  Not the cheapest way to get a wind turbine up in the wind.  But it's a very nice looking tower and takes up minimal real estate.




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Re: New Tower
« Reply #43 on: July 20, 2012, 08:18:17 AM »
Yep, that's purdy all right, and that turbine is prolly gona kick the ass of anything you got up so far.
I aint skeerd of nuthin.......Holy Crap! What was that!!!!!
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ChrisOlson

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Re: New Tower
« Reply #44 on: July 20, 2012, 10:19:47 AM »
It produced 14.1 kWh on Wednesday on this tower in winds averaging 12 mph and a few gusts up to 15 mph.  It made 3.4 kWh yesterday in light winds under 10 mph, but I had the tower down for close to half the day, and by the time I got it back up the turbine only ran for about an hour last night.

The foundation has a 100% safety factor as far as strength, but even so I have a reduced power curve programmed into the Classic controller to keep the max power of the turbine below 1.5 kW for the next two weeks to reduce loading on the foundation until 28 days expire from the date it was poured.  I think it would be OK at full 3 kW output but I feel there's no sense to pushing it to the max until the foundation meets the specs it was designed for.

The old tower had the turbine barely 30 feet above the tree tops - this one gets it 40 feet above the trees in cleaner wind.  The pine tree to the left of the tower in the photo is just 40 feet to the top, and the elm tree that I got the winch mounted on to pull the tower up is also 40 feet tall.  I had considered moving this tower further out into the field to get further away from the trees.  But height in the tower is cheaper than copper for the wire run.

The terrain here is flat and the only obstructions are the shade trees in the yard.  It's in nice clean wind up there - the turbine ran for 24 hours on Wednesday and didn't yaw more than about 5 degrees all day and night.  It ran at roughly 900 watts continuous output for most of the daylight hours, and basically idling at 100-125 watts all night when the wind died down.

I'm happy with it.
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Re: New Tower
« Reply #45 on: July 20, 2012, 11:42:13 AM »
I'm happy with it.
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I bet you are.
I'd be popping champagne corks or some such to celebrate.
Nice job!
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ChrisOlson

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Re: New Tower
« Reply #46 on: July 20, 2012, 12:00:49 PM »
Champagne is a little too fizzy for my tastes.  I prefer beer.    :)
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Re: New Tower
« Reply #47 on: July 20, 2012, 01:01:06 PM »
Posted a reply in the hijacking thread because I don't want to distract from this one
 
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ChrisOlson

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Re: New Tower
« Reply #48 on: July 20, 2012, 02:34:30 PM »
I guess no project is complete without some sort of movie production.  I ain't no movie producer but I do what I can with what I got.

That turbine really likes the extra altitude.  It runs just smooth as silk on this new tower and only changes yaw position when the wind changes, which isn't very often.  I've seen turbines that yaw back and forth constantly, and that just means the turbine isn't high enough to be out of the turbulence zone and the power production will suffer because of it too.


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gww

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Re: New Tower
« Reply #49 on: July 20, 2012, 04:26:38 PM »
Chris
So that I stay on subject and don't compleetly hijack you thread;  I love your tower.

Although the above statement is true my real questions are;
1. If you didn't use gearing and mppt what would your turbine produce direct drive?
2.  The tubine as is without mppt.  how much does using mppt increase your output.
3.  Size mags, rotor and amount and size wire.

I am at the tower stage so thanks for posting but am curious of cause and effect of tubine building.  trying to get overall perspective.
thanks
gww

ChrisOlson

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Re: New Tower
« Reply #50 on: July 20, 2012, 05:05:23 PM »
1. If you didn't use gearing and mppt what would your turbine produce direct drive?
2.  The tubine as is without mppt.  how much does using mppt increase your output.
3.  Size mags, rotor and amount and size wire.

I don't know about not using gearing and MPPT - this turbine was designed as a package deal from the ground up with a ferrite magnet generator, and to use MPPT.  It would be pure speculation to say what a direct drive non-MPPT machine would do, although there are similar sized turbines in the homebrew books that are 12 feet in diameter you could compare to, I guess.

The generator is a 16 pole using 2 x 2 x 1" thick ferrite blocks.  The stator has 45 turns of 13 AWG in it.  The generator runs at up to 145 volts @ 1,200 rpm.  The rotor is 3.5 meters, or 11.5 feet in diameter.
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gww

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Re: New Tower
« Reply #51 on: July 20, 2012, 05:09:15 PM »
Chris
Thanks
Thats enough info to play with.
gww

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Re: New Tower
« Reply #52 on: July 20, 2012, 05:26:08 PM »
SOB that thing is beautiful, among the rest of us poor slobs on this board you are definitely in a class of your own Olson.
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just-doug

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Re: New Tower
« Reply #53 on: July 21, 2012, 06:45:43 PM »
chris,in your posts,you refer to 55kpsi steel and 33kpsi steel.im more fimillar with a36 steel.im going to guess that 33kpsi is approcamately a36.if using a36 steel what would be a ball park size for the colum cross sections/legs? also do you have any plans on using lightning arrestors or someother protection plan?

spottrouble

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Re: New Tower
« Reply #54 on: July 21, 2012, 07:23:36 PM »
Hi Chris, that really is a nice tower. Couple of questions, 1. How did you pre-stress the tower legs before welding?. 2. On the angle iron diagonals, why are the ends notched? Did you do all those on a bandsaw or do you have a shear that can do that?

Kristi

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Re: New Tower
« Reply #55 on: July 21, 2012, 09:03:52 PM »
Rohn will now only sell towers to certified turbine manufacturers, they will not sell a tower to the general public any more.

So much for that.  My last contact with Rohn was years ago... 
That's progress for you.
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Mary B

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Re: New Tower
« Reply #56 on: July 21, 2012, 09:34:20 PM »
Amateur radio dealers still carry Rohn guyed towers.

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Re: New Tower
« Reply #57 on: July 21, 2012, 10:13:47 PM »
That's just it, if you need stamped certified foundation and tower drawings for your state they won't do it unless you are a turbine manufacturer, and more and more local units of government will not allow guy wires.
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ChrisOlson

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Re: New Tower
« Reply #58 on: July 22, 2012, 12:56:33 AM »
chris,in your posts,you refer to 55kpsi steel and 33kpsi steel.im more fimillar with a36 steel.im going to guess that 33kpsi is approcamately a36.if using a36 steel what would be a ball park size for the colum cross sections/legs? also do you have any plans on using lightning arrestors or someother protection plan?

33 ksi steel is cold formed steel with yield of 33 ksi and ultimate tensile strength of 52 ksi.  It's very close to A36 with the exception that angles and so on are cold formed in a press break from flat steel plate.  55 ksi steel is a normalized low alloy steel, A573 Grade 55.

My system has MidNite Solar MNSPD300 surge arrestors on the DC bus.  The towers have a standard NEMA GR-1 ground rod driven for each one.

Hi Chris, that really is a nice tower. Couple of questions, 1. How did you pre-stress the tower legs before welding?. 2. On the angle iron diagonals, why are the ends notched? Did you do all those on a bandsaw or do you have a shear that can do that?

Kristi, I built a jig that holds the columns in place and places the proper pre-stress on them for tower section construction.  The ends are not notched on the A36 lattice cross members.  That is an optical illusion either due to camera angle or lighting.
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Re: New Tower
« Reply #59 on: July 22, 2012, 01:40:15 AM »
1. If you didn't use gearing and mppt what would your turbine produce direct drive?
2.  The tubine as is without mppt.  how much does using mppt increase your output.
3.  Size mags, rotor and amount and size wire.

I don't know about not using gearing and MPPT - this turbine was designed as a package deal from the ground up with a ferrite magnet generator, and to use MPPT.  It would be pure speculation to say what a direct drive non-MPPT machine would do, although there are similar sized turbines in the homebrew books that are 12 feet in diameter you could compare to, I guess.

The generator is a 16 pole using 2 x 2 x 1" thick ferrite blocks.  The stator has 45 turns of 13 AWG in it.  The generator runs at up to 145 volts @ 1,200 rpm.  The rotor is 3.5 meters, or 11.5 feet in diameter.
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Hi, at 145 volts how much current is going into the MPPT?
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ChrisOlson

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Re: New Tower
« Reply #60 on: July 22, 2012, 02:38:29 AM »
Hi, at 145 volts how much current is going into the MPPT?

20-22 amps.

One of the previous people mentioned something about lightning protection and I only briefly touched on it.  I bought these things:

http://www.midnitesolar.com/productPhoto.php?product_ID=284&productCatName=Surge%20Protection%20Devices&productCat_ID=23&sortOrder=2

They got little blue LED's that come on to show that it's working, and it will protect your expensive equipment up to 115,000 surge amps and keep the clamp voltage below what your equipment can take so it don't get wrecked from a near lightning strike.  Tall towers attract lightning and mine have been struck two times that I know of.

Our AC system is totally isolated from the outside world so the chances of having a lightning strike there are slim, unless the lightning zaps our standby generator or something.  We got one generator that it could zap and blow it to kingdom come and it would be no big loss.  That generator is not shaped right to make a good boat anchor.  But I have considered using it as a "grounding block" for a wind turbine tower in the hopes that it will get hit by lightning and we can maybe collect insurance on it.  But that's a different story.

But I got these things installed on my DC bus, and one on the solar combiner, and one on each of the high voltage DC inputs to my turbine controllers to protect all my equipment from getting zapped.  For only $119 for these things, you can't afford to be without them.
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« Last Edit: July 22, 2012, 02:52:49 AM by ChrisOlson »

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Re: New Tower
« Reply #61 on: July 22, 2012, 03:12:53 AM »
Quote
I built a jig that holds the columns in place and places the proper pre-stress on them for tower section construction.

i, for one would like elaboration on this aspect.  i know you're about blue in the face with all the questions, however, i kinda asked about this before, and didn't quite get a full answer.  if you feel like releasing this information might put others in trouble, feel free to not answer. 

adam

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Re: New Tower
« Reply #62 on: July 22, 2012, 10:30:19 AM »
I built a jig that holds the columns by the ends in the correct spacial orientation to get the proper taper per foot of tower and perfect dimensioning of the columns in the section.  The tower section can be rotated in the jig while the cross members are welded on as if it were mounted in a big engine stand.

I built a pre-stress jig with screw jacks on it that is moved along the columns as the section is built.  The pre-stress tool bends the columns so that when the lattice cross members are welded on, and tension is released on the tool, the column is placed under compression and it ends up perfectly straight.

As I stated before, loss of pre-stress is not uniform because it depends on the tack welding process.  While ultimate yield strength will not be affected, fatigue life will be.  So if you want a tower that lasts, proper pre-stressing is important.  If you don't do this when building a welded lattice structure your columns will end up looking like a snake crawling thru the grass.

You can sight the columns on this tower with a laser with it fully assembled, from top to bottom, and they are within .100".  When I built the each section, to make sure it meets the design specs I supported it on the ends and placed 200% of the design load (4,700 lbs of load on the center of the base section as an example).  I measured the deflection at .105-.115" perfectly on all three columns on three tests on all three sections with the tower section rotated 120° on each test.  She passed with flying colors.

This is not the only one of these towers I'm going to build.  And folks should note that this is an engineered tower.  It is not a bunch of Schedule pipe joined together with band clamps and guy cable brackets welded on where it "looks good".  There's a reason the drawings and design specs for one of those types of towers will make it from one end of an engineer's desk all the across to the other end and straight into the circular file.  I designed and built this tower because I was not satisfied with the commercial offerings from Rohn, AN Towers, and several others.  They all build towers as cheaply as they can because they're all competing with one another, and none of them build a lattice tower specifically for wind turbine duty - they're antenna towers.  I'm not competing with anybody so I designed and built it expensive, specifically for wind turbine duty, just because I can.
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Re: New Tower
« Reply #63 on: July 22, 2012, 11:55:40 AM »
thanks for the elaboration!  sounds like you nailed the design!  if you have some pics of the "engine stand" that would be interesting to see! 

has fab contacted you yet to build one for him?  just buy a bunch of inflatable rafts from wally world, and float/tow his tower across the lake! 

adam

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Re: New Tower
« Reply #64 on: July 22, 2012, 04:32:01 PM »
That damn sod busters towers are too expensive. ;D
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Re: New Tower
« Reply #65 on: July 23, 2012, 01:16:10 PM »
How are the tower sections attached together?

You mention 5W, could you please explain what this means?

Thanks,


Dennis