Sharp ND-U230Q2 Solar Panels?

[DamonHD]

Be careful not to mix up kW and kWh.  Very different animals.

Rgds

Damon

[Mastiffman]

Be careful not to mix up kW and kWh.  Very different animals.

Rgds

Damon

 Thaks for the heads up. What is a common reason that this happens....

 May I have done this using the "Kill-a-watt" meter?

[DamonHD]

Instantaneous power consumption is W or kW.

Energy usage over some interval of time is kWh (or Wh).

For exmaple: my house electricity consumption is about 4kWh per day, but we almost never actually use as much as 4kW power at any instant, and if we did for all 24h constantly that would be 96kWh every day!

A search with your favourite search engine may find a text that explains it to your satisfaction!

Rgds

Damon

[Mastiffman]

Instantaneous power consumption is W or kW.

Energy usage over some interval of time is kWh (or Wh).

For exmaple: my house electricity consumption is about 4kWh per day, but we almost never actually use as much as 4kW power at any instant, and if we did for all 24h constantly that would be 96kWh every day!

A search with your favourite search engine may find a text that explains it to your satisfaction!

Rgds

Damon

 Nope. That was fine.... 

 If yur total for one day is around 4kwh, then there is not way that you'd be at 4kw in an instant.

 4kwh/day is an average of 167w/hour...

[DamonHD]

And that's for 4 of us, and ignoring PV generation.  Do you know the typical US figures?  B^>

Rgds

Damon

[Bruce S]

Depends on location, and availability to NG, but as a guess 10kwh?
I don't put that's me 
I'm down into the 6's closing in on 5's. Ours usage comes from induction range top and all that.
They are very nice and don't heat up the house like gas burners do, but ...plus we don't run the A/C until sun goes down. No reason to run it to keep the dogs cool, that what the little kiddie pool they soak me with is for  .
Cheers
Bruce

[Mastiffman]

Depends on location, and availability to NG, but as a guess 10kwh?
I don't put that's me 
I'm down into the 6's closing in on 5's. Ours usage comes from induction range top and all that.
They are very nice and don't heat up the house like gas burners do, but ...plus we don't run the A/C until sun goes down. No reason to run it to keep the dogs cool, that what the little kiddie pool they soak me with is for  .
Cheers
Bruce

 This next bill that is due was for 95.8kwh for 32 days... And most of it was cooling! Taking down those two trees really hit us hard this year! Time for some insulation, gable vent fans on Original part of the house and then installing some soffit vents on our addition... As the Goones that built it for the previous owners didn't make any...

 From this time last year until now, we are averaging 60.14Kwh/ Month

 On a little better note. the PV Panels that I started the thread for are being offered for $250 each for me... BUT they still only have a 6month warranty... Is that long enough these days to knowe if they are goign to last?

 What would you do?

[Bruce S]

Mastiffman;
BTW: You got saddles for those pups? I'm thinking you could save on fuel , by building a small chariot and have them pull you to work
Let's step back just a bit and about saving you some up front money.
For now you're wanting the build a 12V system, those panels are 250/ea at 250watts 24Vdc.
Like other say you could buy them and they would certainly workout with future plans to go up to 24V or 48V system.
IS this upgrade in the near or say +5 years from now?
IF it less than say 5 years then I'd say maybe going looking for 12Vdc panels, there's a post to a link for 12Vdc at a lower cost with full warranty.
Then as other have said you would then get full use of all available from each panel.
Also, you could wire in 12Vdc computer muffin fans up at attic vents to push air out. I do, it sure makes a difference on the hot side of our house!! I found a couple battery powered fans with 9" blades. I use a small 7Ahr 12V SLA with a 1.5watt 12Vdc panel to run it each day, when one of us  gets home we run the attic fans for about an hour before powering up A/C sure makes a difference!! last months AmerUE bill was lowest June bill in 15 years!! and that's with 10 100+ days.
I'm a happy camper  dog's aren't  'cause they don't get to stay inside with 83degree cooling, but the have the basement where it's NOT 100 and shady 
I'd hate to see you buy these then struggle to get max out of them.

Cheers;
Bruce S

[Mastiffman]

Mastiffman;
BTW: You got saddles for those pups? I'm thinking you could save on fuel , by building a small chariot and have them pull you to work
Let's step back just a bit and about saving you some up front money.
For now you're wanting the build a 12V system, those panels are 250/ea at 250watts 24Vdc.
Like other say you could buy them and they would certainly workout with future plans to go up to 24V or 48V system.
IS this upgrade in the near or say +5 years from now?
IF it less than say 5 years then I'd say maybe going looking for 12Vdc panels, there's a post to a link for 12Vdc at a lower cost with full warranty.
Then as other have said you would then get full use of all available from each panel.
Also, you could wire in 12Vdc computer muffin fans up at attic vents to push air out. I do, it sure makes a difference on the hot side of our house!! I found a couple battery powered fans with 9" blades. I use a small 7Ahr 12V SLA with a 1.5watt 12Vdc panel to run it each day, when one of us  gets home we run the attic fans for about an hour before powering up A/C sure makes a difference!! last months AmerUE bill was lowest June bill in 15 years!! and that's with 10 100+ days.
I'm a happy camper  dog's aren't  'cause they don't get to stay inside with 83degree cooling, but the have the basement where it's NOT 100 and shady 
I'd hate to see you buy these then struggle to get max out of them.

Cheers;
Bruce S

 That probably the most common non serious question that I get asked. or "do the kids ride them?"... It's funny because, although just being silly, people don't really undertand that the bones and ligaments of Canines Compared to Horses are totally different. But the Chariot Idea isn't really that bad of Idea!?  Afterall they are working Dogs and if they could just pulll a 4 wheel wagon to only worry about moving it instead of also carrying some weight, they might actaully do well.

 Anyway, I'm looking to upgrade within a year... So Purcahsing a 12v set would be a better idea. To bad these aren't just that. I should ask them if they could get some that were... I'll check out the link though.
 
 can you recoomend a Good MPPT Charger series to go along with a setup like this that won't take selling one of my dogs to purcahse? 

[Bruce S]

I have had working huskies, taught them to pull by using increasingly heavier concrete bricks.
I got the idea from an uncle who had a mini-Shetland pony
WOW could they pull, BUT no way would even our daughter at 2LBS would be on their back.
Pulling no problem up to 32lbs, would barely break a sweat. couldn't put much more than a few ruck sacks with sides on 'em before they just sat down.

My current system is 12Vdc and I don't use nor have I looked into MPPT ATM, sorry.
With my small upgrade I my look into the DIY MPPT post going on in controls tho.
I am currently waiting for delivery of some 100watt+ panels from online order from Costco.
Cheers;
Bruce S

[DamonHD]

For my 12V system I am using a Morningstar SS-MPPT-15L which is good for 200W of PV at 12V (though can safely ignore excess) and can handle 400W@24V.

Rgds

Damon

[Mastiffman]

I have had working huskies, taught them to pull by using increasingly heavier concrete bricks.
I got the idea from an uncle who had a mini-Shetland pony
WOW could they pull, BUT no way would even our daughter at 2LBS would be on their back.
Pulling no problem up to 32lbs, would barely break a sweat. couldn't put much more than a few ruck sacks with sides on 'em before they just sat down.

My current system is 12Vdc and I don't use nor have I looked into MPPT ATM, sorry.
With my small upgrade I my look into the DIY MPPT post going on in controls tho.
I am currently waiting for delivery of some 100watt+ panels from online order from Costco.
Cheers;
Bruce S

 Oh Yeah, Well Selectively Bred Huskies, Malamutes and Especially Akitas are some Truely Amazing Animals! Wouldn't own anything else if we were a bit farther north. Could Condition them in Summer and Work them in winter. Great Dogs. Mastiffs on the other hand still need some Lineage Work. I health Test before we breed and have produced 2 litters since 05'. This is one of the points in the tasks at hand. it's not cheap and is some work to raise a litter of Puppies that Reach 20lbs+ @ 8weeks old... Our Yard is still recovering from the last two litters and that was 3 years ago! And that's not to mention to all fo the destruction that they cause when they "Get Bored"... I could have probably built a shed from all fo the materials that I've had to replace since 2005... 

 Anyway, not yet huh? yeah, I heard two ways of going about getting the max wattage. Spend the coin and get the MPPT Ch/Con or Get PWM Ch/Con and use the extra coin to buy another PV Panal to make up for PWM loss...

 If ya don't mind asking what type of Shipping costs did you give?

For my 12V system I am using a Morningstar SS-MPPT-15L which is good for 200W of PV at 12V (though can safely ignore excess) and can handle 400W@24V.

Rgds

Damon

Sounds like a decent little unit. BY the way, frogive me but I'm still a bit unclear as to how fast a Bank will charge up? i.e. How long does it take per amps. If my battery bank is made of 6v, 208ah @ 20hr rate (10.4amps) can I charge these faster with a higher rated amperage ch/con and Panels or is best to trickle?

[Bruce S]

I cannot take credit for this link it was in a post from a much more informed member than I
http://www.costco.com/Browse/Product.aspx?Prodid=11760095&search=100w%20solar&topnav=&Mo=0&cm_re=1_en-_-Top_Left_Nav-_-Top_search&lang=en-US&Nr=P_CatalogName:BC&N=5000043&whse=BC&Dx=mode%20matchallpartial&Ntk=Text_Search&Dr=P_CatalogName:BC&Ne=4000000&D=100w%20solar&Ntt=100w%20solar&No=0&Nty=1&Ntx=mode%20matchallpartial

The shipping is included:)
2x100watts is what I ordered.

Charge time : variable. From what I've seen with the NiCds, they will take ALL my panels can shove in, until voltage and current get near full, that's when the controllers kick in.
Remember though MY NiCd banks are NOT your typical system .
Those 6V batteries will be about the same. The main difference being that lead-based batteries lower their voltage so seeing it rise is easier. NiCds hold their voltage until near dead so I have to manage my banks differently.
YOU can or will boil those dry if you attempt to charge them too fast.

[Mastiffman]

Be careful not to mix up kW and kWh.  Very different animals.

Rgds

Damon

I wanted to touch base on this again real quick iof ya don't mind....

I Was going through my Kitchen today with my Kill-a-watt meter and noticed that my 2 yr old LG energystar Refridgerator runs at 15w just plugged in and around 20 with the fan on. 23w w/ the frenchies open and 26 with including the freezer draw open with fr doors. left it open for a few minutes then closed it all up to catch a glimps of the compressor surge and cont. run watts. Starts up at 226w and then levels out around 178w once sloothed out. I flipped through the menu to the Kwh reading and it's estimating .78 kwh. so is that what I should be adding up per hour? 

 Is that why you made this comment after informing of the wattage used with my second floor aquariums? I quickly thinking YES! 

 I should probably take another reading for the second floor room equipment if that's the case. I"m also getting charged just under $0.12/kw

[Mastiffman]

I cannot take credit for this link it was in a post from a much more informed member than I
http://www.costco.com/Browse/Product.aspx?Prodid=11760095&search=100w%20solar&topnav=&Mo=0&cm_re=1_en-_-Top_Left_Nav-_-Top_search&lang=en-US&Nr=P_CatalogName:BC&N=5000043&whse=BC&Dx=mode%20matchallpartial&Ntk=Text_Search&Dr=P_CatalogName:BC&Ne=4000000&D=100w%20solar&Ntt=100w%20solar&No=0&Nty=1&Ntx=mode%20matchallpartial

The shipping is included:)
2x100watts is what I ordered.

Charge time : variable. From what I've seen with the NiCds, they will take ALL my panels can shove in, until voltage and current get near full, that's when the controllers kick in.
Remember though MY NiCd banks are NOT your typical system .
Those 6V batteries will be about the same. The main difference being that lead-based batteries lower their voltage so seeing it rise is easier. NiCds hold their voltage until near dead so I have to manage my banks differently.
YOU can or will boil those dry if you attempt to charge them too fast.

 Bruce,

 Would any of these work well?


https://www.google.com/#q=MPPT+12v/24v+20a+Charge+Controller&hl=en&safe=off&sa=N&tbs=p
_ord:p&tbm=shop&ei=m64IUOqGFMfErQGQ65y4Cg&ved=0CEcQuw0oAQ&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf
.,cf.osb&fp=c9fe34782ad9c55d&biw=1333&bih=819

[jvnn]

I Was going through my Kitchen today with my Kill-a-watt meter and noticed that my 2 yr old LG energystar Refridgerator runs at 15w just plugged in and around 20 with the fan on. 23w w/ the frenchies open and 26 with including the freezer draw open with fr doors. left it open for a few minutes then closed it all up to catch a glimps of the compressor surge and cont. run watts. Starts up at 226w and then levels out around 178w once sloothed out. I flipped through the menu to the Kwh reading and it's estimating .78 kwh. so is that what I should be adding up per hour? 

What you want to do with that Kill-A-Watt is this,
leave your fridge plugged into it for like 2 days or so, then look at the meter and record the following:
-Total hours
-Total kWH

Now divide the total kWH by the total hours to get average kWH per hour.
Multiply this by 24 and you have the kWH to run it per day.
My fridge came out at 2.19 kWH per day

[Mastiffman]

I Was going through my Kitchen today with my Kill-a-watt meter and noticed that my 2 yr old LG energystar Refridgerator runs at 15w just plugged in and around 20 with the fan on. 23w w/ the frenchies open and 26 with including the freezer draw open with fr doors. left it open for a few minutes then closed it all up to catch a glimps of the compressor surge and cont. run watts. Starts up at 226w and then levels out around 178w once sloothed out. I flipped through the menu to the Kwh reading and it's estimating .78 kwh. so is that what I should be adding up per hour? 

What you want to do with that Kill-A-Watt is this,
leave your fridge plugged into it for like 2 days or so, then look at the meter and record the following:
-Total hours
-Total kWH

Now divide the total kWH by the total hours to get average kWH per hour.
Multiply this by 24 and you have the kWH to run it per day.
My fridge came out at 2.19 kWH per day

 This is what I was thinking I should do. great!

 Wow, that is pretty harsh... Time for a new one?

[DamonHD]

Hi Mastiffman,

1) You'll get lots of different answers on the 'how fast can I charge my batteries' but I think that with a *good* charger and some care C/4 rate for lead-acid bulk charge is generally OK, and given that you should never run your batteries down below 50% charge, that implies that you should be able to get them mostly charged in a couple of hours if you were really pushed, but actually the last little bit of charge takes a long time because it has to be done slowly.

Basically it means that it practical to fully charge batteries from PV on a moderately good day without destroying anything.

(Others please leap in an correct me if I'm wrong: I've not thought about it in these terms before quite.)

2)  jvnn has it right.  Fridges typically run about 25% of the time (YMMV of course) and so measuring kWh over a number of hours and dividing by that number of hours gives you a good measure of average consumption, ie kWh per hour is kW.  My old fridge/freezer was 2kWh/d, my new (slightly bigger) one is about 1kWh/day, but of course that in part depends on the size of it.  And I never saw a fridge in Europe as big as some I saw in the US!

Note that usage is not constant.

Have a look at some of the linked graphs/data at the bottom of my page http://www.earth.org.uk/note-on-Siemens-KG34NA10GB-upright-fridge-freezer-REVIEW.html

I seem to have failed to capture the by-day graph, but all the data is there.

Rgds

Damon

[Mastiffman]

What you want to do with that Kill-A-Watt is this,
leave your fridge plugged into it for like 2 days or so, then look at the meter and record the following:
-Total hours
-Total kWH

Now divide the total kWH by the total hours to get average kWH per hour.
Multiply this by 24 and you have the kWH to run it per day.
My fridge came out at 2.19 kWH per day

 Okay, I came up with 103w/hour =2.472kw/day. BUT this was after letting it sit fro a few minutes with both french doors open and the freezer draw open. So I'm not sure if that made that big of difference or not. We keep our house temp around 72* and we had our air off for the last 2 days due to cooler temps. So I can only imagine that a warmer house and calculating the door situation in made a bit of a difference. This is supposed to an engerystar Appliance also. It's only 3 years old....

Hi Mastiffman,

1) You'll get lots of different answers on the 'how fast can I charge my batteries' but I think that with a *good* charger and some care C/4 rate for lead-acid bulk charge is generally OK, and given that you should never run your batteries down below 50% charge, that implies that you should be able to get them mostly charged in a couple of hours if you were really pushed, but actually the last little bit of charge takes a long time because it has to be done slowly.

Basically it means that it practical to fully charge batteries from PV on a moderately good day without destroying anything.

(Others please leap in an correct me if I'm wrong: I've not thought about it in these terms before quite.)

2)  jvnn has it right.  Fridges typically run about 25% of the time (YMMV of course) and so measuring kWh over a number of hours and dividing by that number of hours gives you a good measure of average consumption, ie kWh per hour is kW.  My old fridge/freezer was 2kWh/d, my new (slightly bigger) one is about 1kWh/day, but of course that in part depends on the size of it.  And I never saw a fridge in Europe as big as some I saw in the US!

Note that usage is not constant.

Have a look at some of the linked graphs/data at the bottom of my page http://www.earth.org.uk/note-on-Siemens-KG34NA10GB-upright-fridge-freezer-REVIEW.html

I seem to have failed to capture the by-day graph, but all the data is there.

Rgds

Damon

 What kind of Fridge do you have? Mine seems to pumping out WAy more than it should then... No?

 BTW, I picked up some Copper 2awg Welding Wire and Lugs to start. The 2awg Copper was about 2.75/ft IIRC... Lugs were a couple bucks each... Was from a local suppplier.

[DamonHD]

My page is all about by fridge freezer!

 http://www.earth.org.uk/note-on-Siemens-KG34NA10GB-upright-fridge-freezer-REVIEW.html

Note that any fridge over about 10 years old should be replaced ASAP as it will use about twice as much juice as an identical new one.  Should be recycled properly to stop any ozone-depleting nasties escaping too.

Rgds

Damon

[Mastiffman]

My page is all about by fridge freezer!

 http://www.earth.org.uk/note-on-Siemens-KG34NA10GB-upright-fridge-freezer-REVIEW.html

Note that any fridge over about 10 years old should be replaced ASAP as it will use about twice as much juice as an identical new one.  Should be recycled properly to stop any ozone-depleting nasties escaping too.

Rgds

Damon

 Mine is only 3yrs old...? 

[DamonHD]

Compare the capacity of mine and yours; yours may simply be much larger.

Also, I explicitly selected the most efficient model I could that met our various requirements.  Took a little longer but has been saving energy ever since.

Rgds

Damon

[Mastiffman]

Oh.. yeah!? lol

 Yours= 274 liters (9.68 cubic ft) 274/ 1000w= .274w/L

 Mine=  699.42 liters (24.7 cubic ft) 699.42/ 2472w= .283w/L

 You Win! LOL

[DamonHD]

Ours is a relatively large by UK standards: and people wonder *why* typical US consumption is twice ours!  B^>

Rgds

Damon

[Mastiffman]

Ha! yeah, no doubt you hit the nail spot on with that one....

[DamonHD]

BTW, those would be "Wh/l/d" above not "w/L".

Rgds

Damon

[Mastiffman]

BTW, those would be "Wh/l/d" above not "w/L".

Rgds

Damon

 Good Point. 

[Mastiffman]

OKay, I found this guy that has this for sale. Tell me if this is a good deal or not... He said that he could split them all up. I don't know how old everything is and don't really plan on using the battereis. He asking $1000 but said that he would be willing to split up the stuff. I have an inverter and Batteries at this point. Would the PV Panels and Charge controller be a good way to start off if they are in working order? How much, considering his asking price shold I offer for them? I honestly don't think that $1 is worth the money on these but would charge controller be of use?

(4) Workaholic u2200 deep cycle (batteries)
(1) BZ M12+ pwm charge controller bz products
(1) Trace TS-812 series inverter
(3) Photowatt international 750 ( solar panels)

[Mary B]

Batteries $100 new, Panels maybe $150 new, charge controller is maybe a 12 amp PWM and they can be found cheap, $30, inverter?

[Mastiffman]

Batteries $100 new, Panels maybe $150 new, charge controller is maybe a 12 amp PWM and they can be found cheap, $30, inverter?

 LOL- So this guy is out his mind askingt hat much for this stuff? I didn't realize that these panels were only 75-85w each until after this post...

[Mastiffman]

Batteries $100 new, Panels maybe $150 new, charge controller is maybe a 12 amp PWM and they can be found cheap, $30, inverter?

 SO what would you say is a fair price for this stuff or a good deal on it if I were to get it off of the owner... Probably minus the batteries... Maybe $250 for all of it?

[Mary B]

Inverter new is $400, I would go half on that and half on the panel prices, new 100 watt panels go for $145 http://www.solarblvd.com/Solar-Panels-&-Systems-Individual-Solar-Panels-100---170-Watt-%288%29/c1_25_42/p1394/Solar-Cynergy-100-Watt-12-Volt-Solar-Panel/product_info.html, charge controller is a $20 item