Recommendation for 12v TRUE Deep Cycle (not hybrid) Batteries?

[Watt]

Their own literature says: "Our plates are the thickest in the business" http://www.usbattery.com/usb_images/usb_golf_fly_2a_08.pdf

Here is a 12v version of the 6v batteries I once liked which US battery made/makes.  The 6v was the same size or therabouts best I can remember.  I will continue to look but..... 

Anyway.

[Watt]

they look to be a decent entry level deep cycle battery and not one of those wannabe hybrid marine types.

Can you tell me what the heck " Hybrid batteries are "


some years ago, using sandia labs test results i did a cost analysis of various deep cycle batteries, everything from the t105 trojan to the 5000 series rolls surrette. my findings came down to if you keep them maintained properly all of the various deep cycle batteries work out to being very close in cost per kw/hr delivered over their lifespan. the difference was so close that i gave me pause and made me reconsider some of the lessor expensive batteries out there.

i did not factor in shipping costs, or added labor in swapping out a cheaper set 2-4 times during the life of a very expensive set, but on a small system and if you are close to a supplier it comes down to careful consideration as to which is a better buy all things considered.

I have often wondered if the costs were close?  The manufactures must have some way to calculate profit/costs and lifespan.  I was always too cheap to worry about kicking myself in the rear for buying cheap.  When I bought new, I would try and buy the best I could.




fwiw

bob g

[Mastiffman]

I think I understand your question.

If you only have batteries in series, your series wires do not have to be the same length. 
 
Rule of Thumb?

Keep the wires as short as possible.
Insure wires are sized correctly.
Number of connections should be kept to a minimum.

 Gotcha, I was under the impression that it was best have all of the series wires the same length. Either way, I did just that. I also made sure that the length would be ample enough for the batteries to be connected in series side by side (i.e. -- --) or Stacked (i.e. | | ) with a bit of breathing room between them for mild ventilation.  For the four Abtteries that I have so far I have 4 wires of equal length that will connect all 4 in 2x 12v series strings that are paralleled.

what sort of pricing can you get on those, i wouldn't be afraid of them
if they are competitive with the trojan equivalent in price.

they look to be a decent entry level deep cycle battery and not one of those wannabe hybrid marine types.

perhaps one could call their engineering dept and find out how thick the plate really are?

i am thinking if they are anywhere around .170" or better then they ought to have a reasonably competitive lifespan.

my bet is a well cared for set of these will probably last as long as a poorly managed set of expensive batteries at a fraction of the cost.

some years ago, using sandia labs test results i did a cost analysis of various deep cycle batteries, everything from the t105 trojan to the 5000 series rolls surrette. my findings came down to if you keep them maintained properly all of the various deep cycle batteries work out to being very close in cost per kw/hr delivered over their lifespan. the difference was so close that i gave me pause and made me reconsider some of the lessor expensive batteries out there.

i did not factor in shipping costs, or added labor in swapping out a cheaper set 2-4 times during the life of a very expensive set, but on a small system and if you are close to a supplier it comes down to careful consideration as to which is a better buy all things considered.

also if you go with a more reasonable priced battery to start with, you can learn the hard lessons without risking as much money. if you do your research you can learn on them and still get very decent life out of them, and when they are done you can then decide whether to go the same route or step up with confidence to an expensive set knowing you have the knowledge needed to get maximum life out of them.

fwiw

bob g

 I'M getting my US Battery 1800 XC's (6v @ 208 Ah) for $79.99. Core is $24 each but I'm starting to get cores together for free from local people looking to get rid of them by me picking them up. So 2 of the 1800 XC's for $169 and change.

 The 2200 are about $15- $20 more each. Not worth it in my opinion. IIRC, it would only work out to be like 1 battery less per 1kw Inverter... Waste of money in my mind being that you need to purchase the extra battery anyhow to complete the bank.

I checked on the 12v 200ah deep cycle versions of these batteries and they are $180- $185 each. Which is not really worth the hassle to me either.

Can you tell me what the heck " Hybrid batteries: are ?

I have often wondered if the costs were close?  The manufactures must have some way to calculate profit/costs and lifespan.  I was always too cheap to worry about kicking myself in the rear for buying cheap.  When I bought new, I would try and buy the best I could.

 Hybrid are nothing more than a difference in plate thickness and density from what I've read. They can handle a bid of CC and Deep cycling. But will wear out much sooner if use solely for DC-ing....

 I've always found that buying the best that I could for my budget works best. Which usually I try to settle on Midgrade items.

 JMO though. 

[bob g]

i would classify a hybrid as being a battery that can do deep cycle and also do starting duty, but neither really well 

marine batteries fit that category,

i would expect a starting battery to maybe put up with a couple dozen deep discharges before it gave up, and that only if you recharge immediately after doing the deed.

i would expect a hybrid (marine) battery to do maybe 100-200 cycles to 80% depth of discharge before it died. and i would not expect more than maybe 3 years in starter duty if it is doing so in cold climates. this too only if it is recharged immediately after such use.

i would classify a golf cart battery as an entry level deep cycle battery, and expect around 4-500 deep cycles (80%DOD) before end of life, and only if it was recharged immediately after each cycle.

one could probably do a bit better with the hybrids "if" the cycles were shallow and recharge done immediately, but it is doubtful that they would ever make more than maybe 250 such cycles, in my opinion.

i think a golf cart deep cycle might well make maybe 800 or more cycles if short/shallow cycled and well maintained, but i would not count of more than 500 cycles and then if it got more i would be pleasantly surprised.

btw, i too figured to buy the best i could afford figuring it would work out lower cost over the lifespan of the batteries, however i had to give this another "thunk" after doing the analysis.

then things changed for me,  that is my needs for a battery bank changed

i now have sufficient solar pv to cover my loads, and i can schedule those loads for the most part to be serviced during the daylight hours.
so my needs for a battery bank are more for a buffer than for bulk storage.
development of a trigenerator (combine power/heat/cooling) provides me the ability to maintain a battery bank whether the sun is shining or not, so again my needs for a battery are more as a buffer
what i am now seriously considering is the use of automotive starting batteries, because my needs are for a buffer (which any battery can provide) and i can schedule my loads, and my need for the bank to cover a load is not much over 30 seconds before the trigen can start, come on line and take over powering the loads that the solar either can't or if the sun isn't shining.

a 30 second draw is well within the design parameters of an automotive starting battery. such a battery is really good at doing a couple things, that is providing a lot of amps over a short period of time, ability to accept a high rate charge, and because of economies of scale and fierce competition they are about as cheap a battery as one is likely to find... and their lifespan is reasonable given a very shallow cycle of less than 10% of capacity.  my thinking is if i can size the battery bank so that the 30 second draw is around 5% of capacity the bank likely would have a lifespan of 5 years or more.

another thought while on this tangeant

my inverter bank will provide 2.2 times it rated power as surge capacity, this allows me to start a  much larger motor load with a smaller generating capacity on its own, and powered by a bank of automotive batteries the ability to provide a huge surge without damage to the batteries is something to consider.

getting back to economies of scale, lets take a look at the trucking industry. for whatever reason truck parts are far better priced than car parts any day of the week. batteries are no exception.
i can find a dealer any given month that will have for instance 950cca 12volt batteries for less than a hundred bucks a copy, and they come with a good warrantee, some of which will give you replacement for the first 2 years and prorate another 3-5 years. of course they don't know what i plan for them, nor am i going to tell them either.  i keep the receipt and take them home, should they fail i bring them back and get replacement or adjustment/replacement.

admittedly this sort of battery is of little use to anyone wanting a storage battery and to deep cycle it. it likely would not make more than 20-30 deep discharges before being toast. warrantee or no warrantee that sort of lifespan is no good under that sort of service.
fwiw
bob g

[Mastiffman]

another thought while on this tangeant

fwiw
bob g

 That was a Quality Tangent though my Friend! 

[jvnn]

8 ea Trojan T 1275 12V Golf Car ~roughly 150AH

You have not listed a " true " deep cycle battery.  I don't think you understand Chris' " Kool-aid". 

Will the batteries you listed work? Yes, for a while.

So the above Trojan Golf cart battery does not qualify as a true deep cycle battery?
I guess I'm confused.
Are there any decent 12V deep cycle batteries out there that are (pricewise) short of Rolls?

I see Rolls has some 12V batteries that would work, I haven't looked into price yet;
Series 3000 27 112XJM  marine heavy duty deep cycle
Series 4000 30H 108M  marine heavy duty deep cycle

oh yeah - typo in my previous post, I plan to use only 20% of capacity I guess that is correctly stated as 20% DOD.

thanks...

[Mary B]

The US Battery 2200XC's were $100 each + core. They have a cutaway of a plate on the website but no mention of how thick the plates actually are that I have found.

[Mastiffman]

So the above Trojan Golf cart battery does not qualify as a true deep cycle battery?
I guess I'm confused.
Are there any decent 12V deep cycle batteries out there that are (pricewise) short of Rolls?

I see Rolls has some 12V batteries that would work, I haven't looked into price yet;
Series 3000 27 112XJM  marine heavy duty deep cycle
Series 4000 30H 108M  marine heavy duty deep cycle

oh yeah - typo in my previous post, I plan to use only 20% of capacity I guess that is correctly stated as 20% DOD.

thanks...

 No, look at these.
http://www.usbattery.com/usb_productline12v.html

4 US Battery 12v True Deep Cycle Batteries:

1. US 12v XC       -(AH-Capacity 155ah)
2. US 185 E XC    -(AH-Capacity 185ah)
3. US 185 HC XC  -(AH-Capacity 200ah) (The one priced locally @ $180 each w/o Core Charge)
4. US 185 XC       -(AH-Capacity 220ah)

 As Opposed to the US Battery:

1. US 27DC XC    -(AH-Capacity 105ah) ****Shows a CCA Rating****
2. US 31DC XC    -(AH-Capacity 130ah) ****Shows a CCA Rating****

 It was Cheaper for me to get 2 6v 208ah 1800 XC's... =$169.54 (needed 3 standrad 12v cores or 2 Deep Cycles).

[Watt]

So the above Trojan Golf cart battery does not qualify as a true deep cycle battery?
I guess I'm confused.
Are there any decent 12V deep cycle batteries out there that are (pricewise) short of Rolls?

I see Rolls has some 12V batteries that would work, I haven't looked into price yet;
Series 3000 27 112XJM  marine heavy duty deep cycle
Series 4000 30H 108M  marine heavy duty deep cycle

oh yeah - typo in my previous post, I plan to use only 20% of capacity I guess that is correctly stated as 20% DOD.

thanks...

 No, look at these.
http://www.usbattery.com/usb_productline12v.html

4 US Battery 12v True Deep Cycle Batteries:

1. US 12v XC       -(AH-Capacity 155ah)
2. US 185 E XC    -(AH-Capacity 185ah)
3. US 185 HC XC  -(AH-Capacity 200ah) (The one priced locally @ $180 each w/o Core Charge)
4. US 185 XC       -(AH-Capacity 220ah)

 As Opposed to the US Battery:

1. US 27DC XC    -(AH-Capacity 105ah) ****Shows a CCA Rating****
2. US 31DC XC    -(AH-Capacity 130ah) ****Shows a CCA Rating****

 It was Cheaper for me to get 2 6v 208ah 1800 XC's... =$169.54 (needed 3 standrad 12v cores or 2 Deep Cycles).

Cool, report back in a year after counting the " Deep Cycles ". 

[Mastiffman]

So the above Trojan Golf cart battery does not qualify as a true deep cycle battery?
I guess I'm confused.
Are there any decent 12V deep cycle batteries out there that are (pricewise) short of Rolls?

I see Rolls has some 12V batteries that would work, I haven't looked into price yet;
Series 3000 27 112XJM  marine heavy duty deep cycle
Series 4000 30H 108M  marine heavy duty deep cycle

oh yeah - typo in my previous post, I plan to use only 20% of capacity I guess that is correctly stated as 20% DOD.

thanks...

 No, look at these.
http://www.usbattery.com/usb_productline12v.html

4 US Battery 12v True Deep Cycle Batteries:

1. US 12v XC       -(AH-Capacity 155ah)
2. US 185 E XC    -(AH-Capacity 185ah)
3. US 185 HC XC  -(AH-Capacity 200ah) (The one priced locally @ $180 each w/o Core Charge)
4. US 185 XC       -(AH-Capacity 220ah)

 As Opposed to the US Battery:

1. US 27DC XC    -(AH-Capacity 105ah) ****Shows a CCA Rating****
2. US 31DC XC    -(AH-Capacity 130ah) ****Shows a CCA Rating****

 It was Cheaper for me to get 2 6v 208ah 1800 XC's... =$169.54 (needed 3 standrad 12v cores or 2 Deep Cycles).

Cool, report back in a year after counting the " Deep Cycles ".

 I will do my best... 

[XeonPony]

Had a set of the US2200 I pulled out of a recycling yard, horrid shape, gave them a good watering, equalized them and they lasted 3 years with no problems other then I took em down to 10.9 volts (Well thats was their power band) and took em to 15v on charge and watered them when they got to half full! So tuff little battery!

So now I got 4 more took the old ones in for core and plan to get another 4! most the boats use them or the USRM-8D's A true deep cycle 240AH heavy heavy battery!

[thirteen]

I'll be getting batteries next spring. Just where would a person look for the older nifu Edison batteries. I would like to find some to work with. I'm in Montana,USA. I know ZAP in Dillion, Mt makes them. But I will probably get some sort of used batteries somewhere or buy some cheap ones at first. I will be adding solar next year and then hydro the year after that. I figure I will toast my first set one way or another. I'll also be adding more solar panels but at different distances from the banks so I'll have wiring problems to solve. What I use now for batteries are 5 old (8-12yrs)and they were abused and miss used when I got them and I found 3 of them at an old mine site(not sure ) and one of them has no name or markings it is bigger than the others. But they work, sort of. They will make a good core trade in. So I am starting to look for a good deal on batteries. 800 / 1000 ah bank 24V.

[Mastiffman]

Had a set of the US2200 I pulled out of a recycling yard, horrid shape, gave them a good watering, equalized them and they lasted 3 years with no problems other then I took em down to 10.9 volts (Well thats was their power band) and took em to 15v on charge and watered them when they got to half full! So tuff little battery!

So now I got 4 more took the old ones in for core and plan to get another 4! most the boats use them or the USRM-8D's A true deep cycle 240AH heavy heavy battery!

 I wanted to ask you a question about batery bank voltage.

 If I run my inverter on the bank for a while and run it down a bit, when I remove the load off of the inverter and then turn the inverter off, will the battery voltage rise back up a bit on it's own?

[bob g]

the answer is typically yes
the reason being the acid interface with the plates take a bit to catch up
and you will often see a bit of a rise.

if you were to run the batteries down very slowly, and disconnect the load, you won't see much of a rise if at all. on the other hand if you hit them hard, then remove the load and wait a bit the voltage will generally rise.

bob g

[Mastiffman]

the answer is typically yes
the reason being the acid interface with the plates take a bit to catch up
and you will often see a bit of a rise.

if you were to run the batteries down very slowly, and disconnect the load, you won't see much of a rise if at all. on the other hand if you hit them hard, then remove the load and wait a bit the voltage will generally rise.

bob g

Okay. I thought so.
 Just for clarification... Define "hit them hard"? Say, down to 40% within how long of a time?

 Thanks.

Andrew C.

[bob g]

giving a specific answer is going to near impossible to do
but generally if you have for instance a 100amp/hr battery
and discharged it at 1amp over 100 hours, and stopped anywhere along the way it is unlikely you would see much of a rise after it sat for a while when the load was removed.
the same battery discharged at 5amps over 20 hours might show a small rise after the load is removed and it is allowed to sit.
the same battery discharged at 50amps for maybe a half hour, would likely show a significant rise in voltage after the load was removed and the battery was allowed to rest.

different battery types, technologies, temperatures, ages, amount of draw, length of time resting among maybe other things, all will have effect on this phenomena.

best answer i know of anyways, probably others here that can give you a more specific answer, if you provide more specific info on all the above factors and maybe a few more.

bob g

[Mastiffman]

giving a specific answer is going to near impossible to do
but generally if you have for instance a 100amp/hr battery
and discharged it at 1amp over 100 hours, and stopped anywhere along the way it is unlikely you would see much of a rise after it sat for a while when the load was removed.
the same battery discharged at 5amps over 20 hours might show a small rise after the load is removed and it is allowed to sit.
the same battery discharged at 50amps for maybe a half hour, would likely show a significant rise in voltage after the load was removed and the battery was allowed to rest.

different battery types, technologies, temperatures, ages, amount of draw, length of time resting among maybe other things, all will have effect on this phenomena.

best answer i know of anyways, probably others here that can give you a more specific answer, if you provide more specific info on all the above factors and maybe a few more.

bob g

 Nope. that was explanitory enough. thank you...

[Mary B]

So when deciding on when to shutdown do you go by voltage under load or voltage when you remove the load? My bank under a 250 watt load will rise .3 to .4 volts when I turn off the inverter.

[jvnn]

So when deciding on when to shutdown do you go by voltage under load or voltage when you remove the load? My bank under a 250 watt load will rise .3 to .4 volts when I turn off the inverter.

Don't remember where, but I read that the voltage under load is a better indicator of charge state than voltage under zero load.
Also, the voltage under load will vary considerably with the size of the load.
When that voltage is corrected for load size it is supposedly pretty accurate.

Look at a discharge curve like this;
for your battery and pick the line you want based on your typical discharge rate...

[Bruce S]

My newest "little" 60 watt system using SLA's, are set up with LVD under load.
I felt that  I didn't want to bring them low enough to add any extra strain, so decided to go the route of safety of the SLAs.

[Mastiffman]

So when deciding on when to shutdown do you go by voltage under load or voltage when you remove the load? My bank under a 250 watt load will rise .3 to .4 volts when I turn off the inverter.

 With a tiny little 60watt load on my bank, I"m only getting a vRise of about .10v-.12v... So it's all correlating it seems.

Don't remember where, but I read that the voltage under load is a better indicator of charge state than voltage under zero load.
Also, the voltage under load will vary considerably with the size of the load.
When that voltage is corrected for load size it is supposedly pretty accurate.

Look at a discharge curve like this;
for your battery and pick the line you want based on your typical discharge rate...

 VOltage under load being best would make the most to me as this is the time that you will be paying most attention to the DoD and basing the DoD off of because it's during operation. Plus it's the "Safer" route in my eye's...

My newest "little" 60 watt system using SLA's, are set up with LVD under load.
I felt that  I didn't want to bring them low enough to add any extra strain, so decided to go the route of safety of the SLAs.

 Forgive my ignrance Bruce but what are SLA's again? And LVD would be "Low Volt Detection" I assume?

[Bruce S]

SLA=Sealed Lead Acid. Like to ones in UPSs so they don't spill.
Correct on the LVD

[Mastiffman]

SLA=Sealed Lead Acid. Like to ones in UPSs so they don't spill.
Correct on the LVD

 I knew it looked familiar! lol
 Thanks.