Author Topic: Grid-tie with backup?  (Read 3520 times)

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jvnn

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Grid-tie with backup?
« on: July 05, 2012, 10:20:20 AM »
I'm looking for a way to provide minimal power during blackouts.
I'm ok with not being able to run all my household appliances when the grid goes down.
I'd like to be able to run either the furnace or the fridge, but not both at the same time and not run either of them when there's no sun.
I'd like to be able to run minimal lights at night.

My questions:
Can I get by with a fairly small battery bank?  - How small?
Is there any reason not to go with a grid-tied with backup system like this?
http://www.wholesalesolar.com/solarpowersystems/medium-ac-off-grid-with-gridtie-solar-power-system.htm
Is that a reasonably priced/sized system for a small, moderately efficient household? - alternate suggestions?
Is there some other considerations I should be thinking about?
Does anyone have a recommendation for an installer in N Colorado who would let me put in some sweat equity and then do the final hookups to put the appropriate certifications on it?
What is the current situation on .gov rebates?

Thanks!!
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-Joel

DamonHD

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Re: Grid-tie with backup?
« Reply #1 on: July 05, 2012, 01:19:42 PM »
Hi,

Decide how long a black-out and at what time of year (the latter determining the size of PV to keep it topped up): I hear what you say about no sun but are you trying to survive a 3-minute outage or a 3-day one or a 3-week one and how minimal is minimal.

If you really only care about minimal lighting then a few Watts of LED can be enough to read/work by with care, and thus a few hundred Watt-hours of battery may give you days' worth of light.

If you want to run an efficient fridge-freezer (1kWh/day) and the odd washing machine run (not on hot!) then a couple of kWh of batteries might do you.

Depending on the time of year you want to cover work out the number of sun-hours you have and thus the number of Wp you need to keep those batteries topped up (and allow 25%+ for losses).

Rgds

Damon
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jvnn

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Re: Grid-tie with backup?
« Reply #2 on: July 07, 2012, 11:51:34 AM »
Thanks Damon!

Looking at costs & headaches & my crummy roof layout (only place I can put these), I am asking myself what do I really want to do here...

My #1 goal is to have some backup for grid failure, and I am interested in being able to handle it for weeks at a time.
Secondary goal is a possible payoff thru selling grid-tied power, but the more I look at it, the more it looks like
expecting a payoff is a bit of a pipe dream.
I ask myself, why spend $15 to 25k for a grid-tie that may take forever to pay off when I might be able to install my own modest off-grid backup system for under $10k.

My roof will only take about 6 panels ~ 1400W before I start having panels at 90 or 180 degree different azimuth and that means multiple strings and... big cost and headache for small additional gains.

So if I only put up the 6 panels, NREL says I can get 120 to 170 kWh (AC energy) per month, or 4kWh per day as a rough minimum.
That looks like enough to run my fridge and furnace if needed along with a few lights, so I'd judge that as a decent backup source.

In terms of batteries, if I put 3 kWh per day as my usage in backup mode and want 3 days storage thats a 48 volt bank at 200Wh, but I don't want to suck it to zero, so it's really a 48V 400Wh bank.  Wow is that really $4000 of batteries!
So maybe I use either the fridge (summer blackout) or the furnace (winter) and cut my storage to 200 Wh at 48V.  I could probably run both during sunlight hours and shut one off overnight...
I mean, this is a backup plan so a little inconvenience is part of the price of having a backup system.

Next question; should I hook this up to my fridge full-time to save a few pennies, or am I better off putting a smaller (lighting and a computer or 2) load on it to extend battery life?  Or maybe even no-load it and just keep it for emergencies only?

Anyone see any obvious errors in these back of the napkin figures?
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-Joel

DamonHD

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Re: Grid-tie with backup?
« Reply #3 on: July 08, 2012, 08:01:36 AM »
Just to pick up one of your points:

"4kWh per day" covers a multitude of sins.  For example here in sunny London with south-facing unobstructed panels there is a ratio of 5:1 between *average* summer sunshine and *average* winter sunshine.

And with my panels facing east and west rather than south that ratio is 10:1, so trying to cover winter load will result in vast overproduction in summer (which thankfully, with grid-tie you can export, and be paid for and help save the rest of the planet).

Do be wary of simple averages for this sort of planning task: you need at least per-month figures IMHO.

Rgds

Damon

PS. Fridges and off-grid systems are a particular area of fun: search for other threads here.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2012, 04:31:55 PM by DamonHD »
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RandomJoe

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Re: Grid-tie with backup?
« Reply #4 on: July 08, 2012, 04:21:56 PM »
My motivation for delving into solar power was also to have backup during a grid failure.  I suffered through a multi-day outage after an ice storm and decided not to go there again! :)

While looking at options and possibilities, I chose not to mess with grid-tie because I didn't want to mess with inspections and the utility company.  Also, at the time, they required a "small monthly fee" to be allowed to backfeed and that would have completely obliterated any savings benefit of grid-tie.  Not to mention they didn't PAY me for the production, they simply deducted kWh per kWh down to zero - couldn't eliminate the bill!

My system has 2kW in panels on the roof, a full Outback setup (FM80 CC, VFX3648 inverter, FNDC battery monitor, Mate interface), 48V 220AH battery bank (8 Trojan T105 golf cart batteries), a breaker subpanel for my backed-up circuits, and all the associated wiring and hardware.  Total cost (excluding labor which was all my own) is less than $10k, closer to $8k IIRC, although spread over several years start to finish.

I had originally had the idea to simply make a completely isolated "backup system" that might run a few things full-time but otherwise I'd move plugs from the regular "grid" outlets to my "backup" outlets I would install in strategic locations around the house.  I never got around to putting in those outlets - ran two "temporary" lines (one running down the hallway to the back of the house!) and two years later...! ;)

This year I finally got off my duff and finished up.  The breaker panel is mounted beside the grid panel, I disconnected the "critical loads" from grid and attached them to the sub panel.  Now I can run most of the house from inverter, and in an outage the switchover is completely seamless - the lights don't even flicker!

In my experience batteries don't really like being floated long-term, it's best to use them - also, if you don't use them you won't know if they're getting weak until it's too late!  So my system switches off-grid daily.  I switch to inverter at 5AM, which draws the batteries down to 85-90% SOC just to give the charge controller a *little* something to do.  By noon to 1PM the system is floating and at sundown I switch the loads back to grid.  Can't go 24x7, as the battery bank isn't large enough - would discharge too deeply each overnight.  During an actual outage I'd shut down some stuff that is normally left running, which would extend runtime considerably.

Certain loads I figure I'll only (or primarily) run on the generator during an outage.  I *can* run the furnace on the inverter, but at 800-900W full-tilt the battery bank isn't going to sustain that very long.  I figure I'd only do that in a pinch - say, the house is 40 degrees and the ice storm is still raging! :)  If it's daylight with good sun, not so much of a problem, I could run straight off the panels.

On south and west-facing panels, I wouldn't worry too much about it.  If you go with a battery based system you are likely going to have several strings anyway to keep the voltages down where the charge controller is happy.  I have four parallel strings of panels - and only one faces south.  They are all paralleled together and feed one MPPT charge controller.  It works just fine, power production is what I expected to see.  The only "problem" with west-facing panels is lower production in winter, but then again they produce *more* in summer (at least at my latitude).

jvnn

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Re: Grid-tie with backup?
« Reply #5 on: July 08, 2012, 11:18:36 PM »
Wow Joe!
Your system sounds alot like what I have in mind.
You gave me lots of information to think about and I'm sure I'll have more questions after I digest this stuff.

A question;
- What kind of gear are you using to switch on and off grid -is it automatic?
And a few about combining strings together;
-Your parallel strings, are they just tied together after the fuses in your combiner box?
-How does that work when one string is shaded - I take it the shaded string doesn't suck energy from the one in good sun.
-When two strings are producing energy, but one is making more due to better azimuth or whatever- does the weaker string still add in, or does the stronger string put out such a higher voltage that makes the weaker one unable to contribute?

Thanks  - Joel
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-Joel

DamonHD

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Re: Grid-tie with backup?
« Reply #6 on: July 09, 2012, 03:15:10 AM »
If each string has a blocking diode as it generally should, it cannot 'suck' energy when shaded from other strings.

Rgds

Damon
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RandomJoe

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Re: Grid-tie with backup?
« Reply #7 on: July 09, 2012, 04:08:12 PM »
My panels have blocking and bypass diodes built into them, so no need for external means to accommodate.

There are two separate racks on my roof, one pair of strings is toward the south end the other pair toward the north.  I have each of the pairs joined up on the roof with these http://www.solar-electric.com/mumc4colam.html multi branch MC4 connectors, so there are two feeds down from the roof.  Beside the charge controller in the garage I have a DC breaker on each feed, the breakers connect to a terminal block, and the terminal block feeds the charge controller.

Solar panels are current sources, so yes they will all contribute what they can.  The only time a set really drops out is when it gets shaded as then the voltage collapses.  There aren't any sudden jumps or drops in power, the trends graphs are pretty smooth as power levels rise and fall - subject of course to battery charge state and loads.

As for my control system, the Outback power system includes a Mate interface which is a little LCD screen with a few buttons.  It can be controlled manually from there, or via serial port.  I have it connected to one of my servers, and wrote a program to talk to it.  That data is fed to my home automation panel, where all the real work happens.  You can even see the system here: http://jace.n5usr.net  (And I have some more info on my system on my website - http://n5usr.net - although I see I need to finish updating, I got the new panels on there but the inverter/CC pic is old!)

The Outback inverter will automatically switch if the grid input fails, and you can also do some limited programming in the Mate - schedule times of day to switch, set minimum SOC levels to return, things like that - but I wanted more control.  This way I can use all kinds of data to make the switch decision, as well as control it remotely if needed.

This is the primary reason I went with Outback.  I was actually more interested in the Xantrex system as it has a few features I'd really like to have, but they only offer Windows software (I don't use Windows) and don't (or didn't) provide specs for their communication protocol whereas Outback has a PDF document online describing the Mate interface in great detail.

jvnn

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Re: Grid-tie with backup?
« Reply #8 on: July 09, 2012, 07:09:15 PM »
That's pretty cool Joe.
I'll try not to gush, but I'm impressed.
I'm an electronic tech atm and a lifelong tinkerer, so I definitely appreciate what you have and how you got there.

Looking at the outback, the lit. describes it having AC transfer switch capability.
Wondering aloud how I'd do it in my panel which has two phases with the loads kind of balanced onto both phases.
Don't really want to buy two inverters to keep the two phase business going and the only load that really needs it is my dryer.
I suppose i could rework my panel to have everything but the dryer on a single phase.   Dunno if that would necessarily be a problem.
Then I'd have to switch back to grid whenever I wanted to run the dryer...

I'm still very much in the thinking about it stage, and the wife and the money aren't fully on deck for this yet.
We had a four day blackout early last winter and I'm already a bit of a doomer so my motivation is substantial.

Anyways,  thanks for all your responses.
-Joel
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-Joel

RandomJoe

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Re: Grid-tie with backup?
« Reply #9 on: July 10, 2012, 07:27:49 AM »
220 split-phase is one downside to the Outback stuff, and one minor reason I preferred Xantrex.  But when it came down to it I didn't need 220V for anything "critical".

I chose to leave my main breaker panel alone, and wired the selected "backup" circuits over to a new sub panel.  That way the 220 loads are always grid-tied and available (oven, stove, main AC unit). 

The only problem with moving all circuits to one phase is the possibility of overloading the neutral.  In some cases (I had an apartment that did this) they'll wire two opposite-phase circuits sharing an undersized neutral.  Also, the neutral bus in the breaker panel is/may be sized for balanced split-phase.  Too much neutral current can overload the bus.  In my case, that isn't a problem - I simply don't have very high-current loads.  My inverter also can't supply that much current anyway.

Yes, the Outback has a built-in transfer switch.  That's how I can handle power bumps without blinking - it sees the power drop and nearly instantly (maybe 2-3 cycles) switches to battery.

jvnn

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Re: Grid-tie with backup?
« Reply #10 on: July 15, 2012, 01:48:48 PM »
I really like RandomJoe's setup and will likely go in a very similar direction.
I'm starting to look at components and layout.

My roof really stinks for this because it has a lot of angles and no decent huge expanses to work with.
I have two triangular areas facing 224 azimuth measuring 156" on the right angle sides.
I'm thinking I can fit two 77" X 39" panels on each triangular area, @ 290W per panel, that's 1160W.
I also have a smaller triangular area facing 134 azimuth which could take one panel. for another 290W.
My big expanse faces 44 - yuck.

So with 5 Canadian Solar CS6-290 panels at VOC 44.4,  VMP 35.9V, is my best choice to hook them all in parallel and use an MPPT controller with a 24V battery bank?
Or is that too low a voltage to get much out of MPPT?
Any thoughts on alternate panel layouts?

Thanks     - Joel
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-Joel

GaryGary

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Re: Grid-tie with backup?
« Reply #11 on: July 18, 2012, 09:26:52 PM »
Hi,
Just to throw another option at you, this is what we do....

We have a 2000 watt grid tied, Enphase micro inverter setup normally.  I did this myself and found that at least where we are, the state and the utility were easy to work with -- total fees $45 -- no hassles.
This is it: http://www.builditsolar.com/Projects/PV/EnphasePV/Main.htm

For backup power I have an odd setup, but it works well for us.  I have an ElecTrak tractor/mower/snowblower that I got for those purposes -- its all electric and has a 36 volt battery pack of six 6 volt 225 AH Trojan 105 batteries (like a golf cart).   To allow it to be used for power during outages (or power out in the field), I got an 3600 watt Tripplite charger/inverter -- very nice unit.  So, I have about 5 useable KWH in the pack when a power outage starts.   I just run extension cords, and have changed my furnace so it is a plug in rather than hard wired.  I can run about the same loads you mentioned with some switching around.  Since the ElecTrak is mobile, I just park it outside the back door during the outage.

To charge the battery pack, I rewire 6 of the 10 panels on my grid tie array into two strings of 3 each, and I use an Xantrex charge controller (the 150? -- the MPPT one).  I just hook up the two strings of 3 panels to the Xantrex, and it charges the 36 volt pack.  It may sound kind of extreme to rewire the PV array for a power outage, but in fact its all done by just unplugging about 6 of the MC4 connectors from one place and plugging them into another place -- takes 15 minutes tops.   When the outage is over, I just move them pack and turn the grid tie disconnect back on.
Details here: http://www.builditsolar.com/Projects/Vehicles/E15ElecTrak/Main.htm
You have more of a challenge with the panels up on the roof, but maybe there is a way to work this?


The things I like about this are: 1) except for power outages, I have a cheap grid tie array that earns me a little money (our last electric bill was 115 KWH!), 2) I'm not maintaining a battery pack just for outages -- the pack is paying its way doing mowing and snowblowing and providing power out in the field.  Battery packs are expensive to maintain due to replacement costs, and its nice to put them to more use than a very occasional power outage.

Anyway, just a thought :)

Gary