Author Topic: Choosing a replacement pump for water well  (Read 6000 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

DSinOR

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 18
Choosing a replacement pump for water well
« on: August 05, 2012, 01:59:31 PM »
Hello all! 

I'm just starting a solar system for emergency backup power (two 200w panels, four 6v batts, a controller, and an inverter).  I intend to expand as resources permit. 

I've just learned that my residential water well needs to be replaced.  In normal life, we enjoy generous use of water at a miximum summer cost of $45 dollars in electric consumption.  In fact, we are occasionally water gluttons.  HOWEVER, in emergencies we are able to cut that usage down to absolute essential minimums and become water misers.  My 6kw gas generator will easily run the water well, allowing us to fill 2 carboys and the house pressure tank in 60 seconds.  We can irrigate the garden in 3 minutes.  So that's us.

There are no records of any kind on the well, not with the county, prior owners, neighbors, or regional well drillers.  Purportedly, it was drilled in 1974, 300' deep, with pump hung on galvanized pipe.  It operates on 240v, filling a large galvy pressure tank in the basement.  It easily makes 15gpm at 50psi. 

I need to pull the pump and replace it on a sch80 pvc pipe string with new wiring harness.  Minimum design requirements: deliver the same generous flow when mains are on, but also allow me to operate the well on my gas generator when  mains are off. 

Since I'm also starting an emergency solar/battery backup system and hope to eventually expand to 800 or even 1K in panels charging 10 or 12 golf cart batteries, I'd like to know how this affects my imminent pump purchase. 

Should I be looking at 120 or 240v pumps?  AC or DC pumps?  Grundfos pumps?  Is there any hybrid system out there that will allow me to be a glutton on mains while also allowing me to provide emergency solar power to briefly operate the well when mains are off? 

My pressure tank system seems great.  My well can fill the tank in 1 minute, storing 45 gallons for pushing through the house plumbing, which is a lot in emergencies.  It is a bladderless tank.  It simply traps and compresses an air bubble in the top of the tank.  I'm inclined to keep this part of the system unchanged, but also open to being educated about better options. 
I do not currently have a cistern, but may build a small one in the future.

FWIW - I'm not interested in grid-tie.  My solar intentions are for emergency power.  I'll use my solar power to run my office during normal times, but it's primary purpose is for emergency power during abnormal times. 

Lastly, I have a friend who worked for a well driller/servicer for a while.  With his help, I will probably rig up a hoist and pull the thing myself.  Anyone with advice, tips, or a favorite link for this type of activity? 

Thanks!

thirteen

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 980
  • Country: us
  • Single going totally off grid 1,1, 2013
Re: Choosing a replacement pump for water well
« Reply #1 on: August 06, 2012, 10:58:38 AM »
A possible place to look for a cistern tank might be a stainless steel tank off of a an old milk transport tank from a wrecked truck or if there was an old dairy that is abandon you might get a tank for nothing. They have openings so they can be cleaned from time to time. Just a place to look.  This would be a good time to sanitize your well. Once the pump is out I would drop a line down to the bottom of the pipe just to see how far down it is and you would also be able to find the water table level. Record it on the wall or weld the information on the well head pipe. Depth and year and your name. 240 runs less amps than 120.  Also if things get messed up power wise if you have a water heater there is a drain on the bottom of your tank and there can be about 40-50 gallons of water in the tank and it is drinkable. Just remember to turn the tank power off or you will burn up the elements whe the power comes back on. I also might recomend that you get your water tested by the county and they might recomend a way to clean your well. Some counties will do it for free but it would also give you a small peice of mind that it is still ok to use. Plus if you deside to sell it helps that you had it tested. and you wil have a record for the future if there is ever a water problem with polution. Just a few ideas to toss or play with. 
About 3 good pipe wrenches and holding clamp for the pipe, two hammers and some good gloves and pictures. You will have about 16 pieces of pipe to play with. Wish you the best of success.
MntMnROY 13

madlabs

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 686
  • Country: us
Re: Choosing a replacement pump for water well
« Reply #2 on: August 06, 2012, 11:13:23 AM »
The Grundfos SQ flex will run on darn near anything. I have run one on a cheap 1kW inverter, generator, and four solar panels. I was quite suprised by the cheapie inverter. They ain't cheap though.

Jonathan

damian

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 47
Re: Choosing a replacement pump for water well
« Reply #3 on: August 08, 2012, 02:23:29 AM »
Try to actually measure the static level and drawdown under pumping.   An SQF may work very well but will limit you to about 11 GPM.  If you can live with that an SQF may be ideal.  Water system design and pump selection are not as simple as many assume.  An 11SQF will pump to about 280 feet at 50 psi as long as your pipes are large enough to keep line losses minimal.  Odds are you would be okay, but if you can measure the water level and the water level under pumping you will actually know.

DSinOR

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 18
Re: Choosing a replacement pump for water well
« Reply #4 on: August 10, 2012, 07:01:49 PM »
Thanks for the replies!

I did some more reading on my pressure tank: bladderless, with AVC valve that bleeds air from the tank, and separate bleed-off valve located down the well.  Each pump cycle, the water in the pipe drains back to the level of the bleed-off valve.  When the pump kicks back on, a fresh air bubble is shoved into the pressure tank and then compressed for water pressure.  Pump-on is at 30psi, pump-off is at 50psi.  Tank is rated for 75 psi, and holds 38 gallons plus the trapped air bubble.   It all seems to be working as described.  The literature suggests that these old pumps can last for 40+ years.  I'm at 38 years give or take. 

I've noticed is that the tank-fill time seems longer than it was a few years ago, and I hear more "pump noise" in the pressure tank closet than I used to, especially as it approaches 50psi on the gauge. 

Outside test: hooked 20' garden hoses to two outdoor faucets, opened valves.  I ran the water until the tank was essentially empty and the well was running constantly to keep up.  The pressure tank gauge read 18psi, and we metered 13 gallons in 60 seconds from open-ended hoses.  Pressure obviously increases if you install sprayers or sprinklers on the end of longer hose runs.  I wish I had done this same test annually for the last few years so I'd have a quantifiable comparison, but I didn't.  What i can say is that the water just doesn't shoot as far from a fan sprayer as it used to when we're watering the garden.  We now have to drag the hose further into the garden to reach the distant corners, so we're convinced that the psi from the end of the hose is lower than it used to be. 

I removed the lid from the well-culvert and climbed in.  Under a layer of fibergalss insulation, i discovered a concrete floor.  The wellhead sits about 4.5 feet below ground level.  There is a trio of abandoned supply wires that enter the culvert at the floor level (zero voltage).  About 3' above that is a romex trio that enter the culvert just below ground level to supply power to the well.  So this suggests that some work has been done on the well since the 1974 installation.  It could mean that a hapless gardener or septic installer cut the original cable and had to install a new one, or it could mean that the pump has been pulled and replaced at some point in the past.  There's no way to know which.   

From the pictures, can you give advice or tips on how to test the static level and drawdown?  Is that a split cap bolted onto the casing?  Is it as simple as removing the bolts, removing the cap, and then looking down the casing?  Will I be dropping a line down the casing to make these measurements?  Things to avoid, tips, etc.  Thanks!

Would it be a bad idea to drop a clean weight on a long clean string down the casing to try to determine how deep the pump is set? 

I'm reading up on the Grundfos options. 

It seems I cannot use the SQ/SQE options becuase my well is too deep to alow me to get decent flow from a 115v AC pump and i don't want to be stuck with a 220v ac pump because I can't run it from an inverter. 

They offer a PGF series 1/2 horse 115v AC pump in 16 and 25gpm flavors.  This may be a good option.  It can operate on a 2000watt msw inverter, but has no soft start, so you pull 250amp start surge on a 12v inverter, or 125amp on a 24v inverter. 

The SQFlex 11 will run on a wide range of power options, including direct panel drive, but I'm concerned about the flow rate.  I need to learn more about the 2.3 foot rule.  For every 1 psi you want from a pressure tank, add 2.3 feet to the head.  That means 115' for my 50psi tank, right? 

I guess what i need to do next is find the static and operating water level.  Assuming my pump is located at 300', if the operating water level in the casing is only 100 feet below ground level, and the pressure tank is at ground level and i want to run it at 50psi peak, then my total head is 100' of well plus 115' of pressure tank, for a total of 215', regardless of the pump depth.  Do I have this right? 

Thx!




damian

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 47
Re: Choosing a replacement pump for water well
« Reply #5 on: August 10, 2012, 11:30:37 PM »
Here's some thoughts for you:

If you are pumping 13 gallons per minute at 18 psi then you will pump less gallons per minute at 50 psi, that's just the way centrifugal pumps work.  If you feel like it you can throttle the hoses back until your system pressure stabilizes at 50 psi and see what your flow is at that pressure.  That will tell you more about what your current pump is doing at the pressures you typically run it. If you use hose shut offs with additional lengths of hose downstream from them you can do this without spraying the water out of the ends of the hoses, it's easier to fill buckets this way.

That is a split top seal on the well, and luckily for you, it is a double pipe seal.  Try putting a channel lock pliers on that little pipe cap on the top of the well seal next to your drop pipe and see if you can't wiggle it up and out of there.  Chances are there is nothing under it but a short nipple and it will come out pretty easily.  If this works you can get access to the inside of the well pretty easily this way.

I don't want to be rude or overly emphatic, so how do I say this?  I mean, I really don't want to be too much of a mean old man, or ruin your fun, etc., etc., but here goes:

Do not try to take the well seal out at this point.  Not unless you have a secure, and I mean secure, as in won't come down on your head, ever, way of lifting the entire drop pipe, because that is what you have to do to get the well seal out. 

You might call this rule number one.  Do not rig up any kind of half baked tripod or half baked anything and inadvertently bring it down on yourself or others.  A few hundred feet of drop pipe filled with water is heavy > so treat it with due respect and caution and don't get hurt.  Rule number one.

Another thing not to do: 

Do not drop the pump and the drop pipe down the well.  Just don't.
You might call this rule number two.  As in rule number one, a drop pipe that long, especially full of water is heavy and should you find yourself watching it disappear down the well at 32 ft./sec./sec. you will be very unhappy.  I would say, "trust me I've been there", but actually, I havn't, I've done many many, submersible removals and installs and I've never dropped one, knock, knock, knock on wood.

Okay, got that out of the way.  I guess that wasn't so bad.  Please, don't hurt yourself and don't drop it.

Let's see, where were we?  If you can get that second pipe out, not the drop pipe, the best thing to do would be to see what the water level is.  A few things you might try are:  Put a weight, thin enough to get through the hole, on a string and with the pump off, run it down until you hear it sploosh in the water.  Mark the string, and measure it as you pull it up.  Sound travels easily up a well and if you can get a weight through that opening, and the weight is nice and flat on the bottom so it makes noise when it hits the water, you will likely hear it.  Another thing you might try is using a fairly long spool of small two strand wire with the ends exposed in some kind of weighted end piece and an ohm meter taped to the spool and connected to the other ends of the wires.  An ohm meter with an audible continuity tone will make this easier.  It all depends on what you have on hand and what you like to work with.  The only thing to really not do is, you guessed it, drop the stuff you are using down the well.

If you can do this successfully and you feel so inclined you can try to get a reading after pumping the well for a while.  If you can get this reading, after say, an hour of pumping, you will have some idea of whether the well has significant drawdown.  Since this will be harder to do than the first measurement, unless you use a contact probe, you may also want to consider the following procedure:  Let the well sit for an hour at least, no water use from it.  Then do a flow measurement, like you did at 18 psi, or some low pressure so that your flow is maximized.  Be as accurate as you can.  Let the well run flat out for an hour and do another flow measurement at the same pressure, using all the same methods as in the first flow test.  If there is significant drawdown your flow after some time will be less because the pump will be lifting the water further and so it will pump less water.  You may want to do this after longer than an hour, say four hours of running.  If there is a difference, this test will not tell you how much drawdown you have but if the flows are very similar it will tell you that you have very little drawdown at that flow.  If that is the case, and you are going to pumping it at a similar rate to the rate used in the test, you should be golden.

I would not recommend that you try to figure out where the pump is, as you correctly state, it will not matter when it comes to how far it has to lift the water.  When you pull the old one you will find out where it is, just put it about the same place.  Trying to find the pump with a weight on a string will mostly be either futile or you might just end up snagging the weight and having to try to retrieve it when you pull the pump.

Getting some idea of the pump level and drawdown will tell you a lot about what pump you will want to use.  Bottom line.

Also though, just for fun, if you can find the pump starter box (there is one somewhere because you have three wires going down the well), see if it lists the horsepower of the existing pump.  That will tell you something too but off the top of my head you will be hard pressed to find many 300 foot wells making 13 gallons per minute with 1/2 horsepower pumps in them.  More likely what is in there is a 1 to 2 horsepower pump.



Okay, enough for now.  You are on the right track.  Be careful.

Best,

Damian


DSinOR

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 18
Re: Choosing a replacement pump for water well
« Reply #6 on: August 11, 2012, 04:52:31 PM »
Damian, thanks for your informative reply!

For starters, I'll try to remove the cap/nipple from the unused hole, then try to determine static and pumping water level.  I'll also check gpm at 50psi. 

Thanks for explaining that the well and drop pipe are hanging on the spilt cap seal. 

I'll post results in a few days. 


DSinOR

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 18
Re: Choosing a replacement pump for water well
« Reply #7 on: August 12, 2012, 09:29:27 PM »
Okay, just like you said, the cap/nipple wriggled out of the rubber sleeve jn the split cap. 

I strung out a 100' roll of Mouser 18g speaker wire. 

My weight was a 3" length of heavy rubber hose (~3/4"OD x 1/4"ID), attached to the wire with electrical tape. 

I set a DMM to 200Kohm and observed a repeatable reading of .40 in air and .11 in fresh water.  So I lowered it into the well until I reached the end of the roll.  Glad I had two rolls.  I spliced them together and strung them out in the yard with the DMM on the end.  It worked!

After 4 hours of continuous pumping into lawn sprinklers (zero pump cycles), the water level was at 141'.  After 1 hour of rest, the water level was at 135'.  We got good repeatable measurements at both depths. 

I expected a greater difference.  To me, this suggests that the well is likely closer to a 200' total depth than 300'.  We'll see...

We're in a drought, in August.  This implies that 141' is a relatively low level for this well.  What is the standard safety margin for choosing pump-set depth?  If I add a 50' safety margin plus another 115' for a 50psi tank, that's 141+50+115 = 306' of head, correct?

Thanks!

damian

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 47
Re: Choosing a replacement pump for water well
« Reply #8 on: August 13, 2012, 11:14:20 AM »
Well you are on the right track.  Good work.  I would not look so much at a "safety factor", though it is always good to figure some extra head into the equation for flow losses in piping and to err on the side of planning on more head than you think.  I would think about any elevation difference between the well and the places you will use the water.  That is also head.  As to how the well will behave over time, that is a guess as well and though I think 50 feet is on the generous side, it is better to be on the high side.  What you are getting at is what the well level will be in ten years, and it's hard to know that.  Perhaps more important will be the rate at which you are pumping the well.  A higher rate of pumping equals more drawdown and it may not be a linear relationship at all, so to make your figures most relevant it would be good to also measure the flow rate you are pumping at, maybe run it awhile at open discharge to push the flow rate higher and measure drawdown there too.  Plan on pumping at a similar rate with your new pump and you will be safe.
And I would figure in some safety factor and not plan on the well level changing too much over time.


Damian

damian

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 47
Re: Choosing a replacement pump for water well
« Reply #9 on: August 15, 2012, 12:12:52 PM »
If you can live with as much water as you have now, then what you need is a Grundfos 11SQF-2.  I'm betting that if you are currently pumping 13 at 18 psi then you will be doing about 11 gpm at 50 psi.  The 11SQF-2 will move 11.5 gpm at 300 feet of head using 1050 watts.  To use it on solar you will need to up your system voltage to 48vdc nominal minimum, which you can do by using higher voltage panels and batteries.  If you do this you can run the pump straight from your 48 volt nominal battery bank in an outage, or straight from your panels if the sun is shining.  The good thing about the sqf is that it will run on ac or dc and it will still deliver the head but simply pump less water if there is less power available.  After all is said and done that pump will fill the bill nicely.  Or you could run it through a small (1500w continuous) inverter.  If you are going to have an inverter anyway then you might want to look at using a Grundfos 15SQ-220 or 15SQ-250.  They have soft start like the SQF so they are easy on inverters and they cost less than the SQF, but can not be run on dc.  Of course if you do go with the inverter you can run any battery voltage that works.  Actually, all that being said, the inverter may just be the easiest way to go because of the troubles you get into switching higher dc voltages, but it all depends on what you want and all kinds of other stuff.  You can get a control box for the SQF that will do the switching for you, for that matter, but it just depends on how bad you want panel direct run capability, etc.


Damian
« Last Edit: August 15, 2012, 12:19:14 PM by damian »

DSinOR

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 18
Re: Choosing a replacement pump for water well
« Reply #10 on: August 16, 2012, 11:25:34 PM »
Damian - thanks again for your help.

I found an SQFlex 11 for $1880 delivered. 

I found a 15SQ10-220 for $603 delivered and a Samflex SA-2000K-124 PSW inverter for $675 delivered.  I found a used T240 autotransformer for $200, for which I'm in the process of arranging a pickup.

The 15SQ option is $400 less, with the added bonus that I'll own a nice inverter. 

I'm pretty sure that's the route I'll be taking. 

DS


damian

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 47
Re: Choosing a replacement pump for water well
« Reply #11 on: August 17, 2012, 12:16:57 PM »
15SQ10C-250 is a better fit.  Find the amp draw to size the inverter.  If you buy it from an authorized dealer you will get a warranty.

Damian