Author Topic: Charge controller use?  (Read 3640 times)

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Roadhse2

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Charge controller use?
« on: October 20, 2012, 08:50:09 PM »
A friend is installing 6 240w 24v panels for his off grid cabin which will have very little power usage....28v voc, 7.83 imp

We are thinking of using a separate PWM 10 amp charge controller on each panel, combiner box, then to a 24v battery bank.

He wants the redundancy of separate controllers instead of one or so in case of a controller problem. He bought the 6 panels knowing he wont need that much power, but low costs on panels at this time made them attractive to buy now. He see's several advantages to having one controller on each panel.

Anyone see any problems with this type of a setup?

Thanks, Glen

SparWeb

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Re: Charge controller use?
« Reply #1 on: October 20, 2012, 10:13:02 PM »
Before answering the question, first I want to say this: "Gee, it's nice to hear that PV prices have come down so much that people want to buy more of them up front!"
It used to be that people would budget only part of the PV they need at one, and plan for expansion later.

Anyway....
I expect that charge controllers are reliable enough for the backup to be unnecessary.  Furthermore, you can get 60-amp charge controllers (I have a Tri-star TS-60) that will handle your array nicely, and you can choose the controller that fits your budget:  The C60's from Xantrex/schneider are cheaper, the Outbacks are more expensive.

You haven't mentioned the battery bank's specs, but that is important in your calculation of value and risk.  If the bank is just a jumble of old car batteries, then reliability in the CC's will have no point.  If he's bought the latest and greatest Telco system standby battery stacks, then a reliability calculation should be factored in.  Also remember that "parallel" systems suffer from increased rates of partial failures.  You have replaced one CC with 6 CC's, thereby increasing the chance of failure by 6.  The consequence of one failure in the single-CC system is a 100% system failure, while the consequence in a 6-CC system is a reduction in charge capacity by 17%.  Sounds good so far, but:  During the partial failure your friend may not even notice for a while, maybe a long time, or not until something else goes wrong, and makes him go check on the rest of them.
Trade-offs.  Pick the compromise that suits your equipment.
No one believes the theory except the one who developed it. Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.
System spec: 135w BP multicrystalline panels, Xantrex C40, DIY 10ft (3m) diameter wind turbine, Tri-Star TS60, 800AH x 24V AGM Battery, Xantrex SW4024
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Roadhse2

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Re: Charge controller use?
« Reply #2 on: October 20, 2012, 11:30:28 PM »
Thank you for the thoughtful and informative reply...

Seeing so many using Enphase, or similar, controller/inverters for grid tied applications is what prompted us to start thinking of trying this in off grid systems. Plus the fact that this will be his only power source and a failure could take a week or more to rectify, so 17% loss is an acceptable trade off versus the whole system being down. Cost factors into it to of course, keeping an extra Xantrex, Outback, etc. on hand doesnt make as much $$ sense to us as keeping a few less costly controllers on the shelf "just in case".

Then there are a few issues that these may help solve, such as partial shading of one panel from snow or leaves lowering the whole strings output. Better monitoring of each panel, the redundancy factor, and the lower replacement cost of a 10 amp controller versus a higher amp one at a time when money may be tight in the future.

We'll give it a try...worst that can happen is he will have a  few controllers to give as Xmas presents if things dont work out as planned..     :)

Thanks again, Glen

thirteen

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Re: Charge controller use?
« Reply #3 on: October 21, 2012, 01:30:25 PM »
If you are giving gifts please spell my name right, thanks 13
MntMnROY 13

dave ames

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Re: Charge controller use?
« Reply #4 on: October 21, 2012, 01:47:16 PM »

Hi Glen,

We may find that you end up having to series those modules in pairs to do any charging to a 24 volt nominal system with them (with a MPPT controller)...the VOC of 24 volt panels is usually about 40ish volts.

Those you have with a VOC of 28v will have a VMP of about 19 or so volts. :(

Roadhse2

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Re: Charge controller use?
« Reply #5 on: October 21, 2012, 02:43:48 PM »
Thanks Dave,

I am going on what he told me over the phone that 28 is the voc...i think in reality they are in the mid 30's range and he was quoting me the vmp. As he didnt say what brand panels i have no way to verify either at this point...

Of course if they do need to be in series, he will just go to one MPPT controller for the string.

Glen

SparWeb

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Re: Charge controller use?
« Reply #6 on: October 21, 2012, 07:47:31 PM »
I am going on what he told me over the phone that 28 is the voc...i think in reality they are in the mid 30's range and he was quoting me the vmp. As he didnt say what brand panels i have no way to verify either at this point...  Glen
Big difference so I hope your assumption is correct.
Other than that, I see that you've given it a fair bit of thought already.  Monitoring differential PV panel output sounds nice, but that will cost some coins, too.  More than the controllers cost.  A "simple" HOBO monitor will cost several hundred dollars, the current-sensing devices about as much, depending on how many channels you end up measuring.  I have a used C40 that I'd part with for less than a hundred bucks, if you live in Canada, by the way.
No one believes the theory except the one who developed it. Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.
System spec: 135w BP multicrystalline panels, Xantrex C40, DIY 10ft (3m) diameter wind turbine, Tri-Star TS60, 800AH x 24V AGM Battery, Xantrex SW4024
www.sparweb.ca

Roadhse2

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Re: Charge controller use?
« Reply #7 on: October 21, 2012, 08:30:24 PM »
Found out they have a 37 voc....so should be good to go

By "monitor" i didnt mean a permanent setup...just check voltages and amps once in awhile on different panels to see how they are comparing.

The plan, for now, is to mount the 10 amp controllers between studs in a hallway on the outer wall just below the roof mounted panels. Then onto a backfed circuit breaker box also between the studs to act as a combiner box. Out thru the wall to the battery bank which will be in a shed attached to the house. The shed will also house the inverter hardwired to the cabin AC breaker box.  Short wire runs thruout....

Live in southern Missouri...but the C40 sounds like a good deal... to cold in Canada for a transplanted S. Calif boy....LOL

Glen

madlabs

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Re: Charge controller use?
« Reply #8 on: October 22, 2012, 10:58:31 AM »
If doing MPPT, make sure the vmp is high enough above the battery bank voltage to get full benefit from the CC. I ran into this, my Midnite Classic 150 won't MPP my current setup because the vmp is too close to the battery voltage. Will be fine when I upgrade, which should be soon.

Also, as to failure rates, the above math only hold true if the 6 CC's are of the same quality as the single cc. You see a lot of cheap small CC's out there. Then you have factors like do they all read exactly the same voltage on the batteries when charging, in which case some controllers may cut off charge before others.

Jonathan

Bruce S

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Re: Charge controller use?
« Reply #9 on: October 22, 2012, 01:13:40 PM »

Live in southern Missouri...but the C40 sounds like a good deal... to cold in Canada for a transplanted S. Calif boy....LOL

Glen
This got my attention, being that I've from near the boot heal of MO (little town named Poplar Bluff), but stuck up the the city (St.Louis).
A kind word often goes unsaid BUT never goes unheard

Roadhse2

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Re: Charge controller use?
« Reply #10 on: October 22, 2012, 09:24:05 PM »
Bruce S...

West Plains here...

Glen

ghurd

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Re: Charge controller use?
« Reply #11 on: October 23, 2012, 08:45:36 AM »
Good to see at least 2 of us know how to spell the name correctly.

Big charging system for a low requirement cabin!
Big charging system usually means big batteries, which are expensive.
Big expensive batteries need taken care of with human brains, and a good CC.

Problem.
CC #1 wants to equalize when #2 does not.
CC #2 wants bulk when #1 wants float.
etc etc etc.
Meaning multiple CCs would need to be capable of Master/Slave connection (and not the crap on ebay).

I would go with a single TS-60 and remote temp sensor.

If I was concerned about an emergency back-up CC, something less fancy would do it.

Myself, for backup, I would use a ghurd CC with a relay (yea, I said 'relay'), partly because it is cheap, the parts are here, and I understand it completely.
I installed an overpowered system faster than expected and needed a big CC faster than they can ship the things, so made one.  Charging amps were about/past what the relay was rated for.  Been a long time, but it ran perfect like that for 6 weeks?  3 months?  before the permanent CC was installed (once the system was up and running, nobody seemed overly concerned to make time to get the finishing touches {other CC} on it).

Should not have any problem getting a new TS-60 in less than a week under any situation I can think of.
Backup CC just needs to be decent.
Gosh.  Depending on the battey AH, could run 1 or 2 panels direct, 2 more through a SS-20L-24V.
G-
www.ghurd.info<<<-----Information on my Controller

d34

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Re: Charge controller use?
« Reply #12 on: October 23, 2012, 10:28:47 AM »
Bruce S...

West Plains here...

Glen


There is another member here that is fairly close to you "getterdone" is his name.   I'm in the Sikeston area.

gww

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Re: Charge controller use?
« Reply #13 on: October 23, 2012, 08:12:52 PM »
G
The proper way is Glenn

Bruce S

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Re: Charge controller use?
« Reply #14 on: October 24, 2012, 09:16:31 AM »
d34;
Sikeston? Nice area! you too would know the correct spelling and pronunciation of Hayti, and where it is.
I used to go down to that area to help work on the fire engine in Honersville! Family cemetery is out that way. Tons of mother/child and single baby headstones out there.
Apocalypse comes calling and I don't head North to ChrisO place I'm headed back that way, Poplar Bluff (where I'm from) family still has storm shelters and caves to hide/live in.
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d34

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Re: Charge controller use?
« Reply #15 on: October 24, 2012, 11:20:15 AM »
I'm a bail bondsman and had an out of state truck driver tell me he was in New Madrid county jail and was on his way to Hayti.  I laughed when he pronounced both of them incorrectly.