Wind powered water pump

[smiler123]

Hi guys

I`m designing a windmill to drive a piston type water pump. It is something I want to make completely from scratch.
I`m stumped at the piston seal stage. Does anyone know whether simple rubber o-rings would work inside a smooth bore pipe instead of cup type or leather seals?
I`m trying to suck water 2meters on the up stroke and push water 2m further on the down stroke.

[SparWeb]

4 meters total head?
You should be able to make either the cups or leather seals work, if you put pairs back-to-back.
Otherwise I don't see why the o-ring seal won't work.  Have you tried either seal yet?

This might download slowly, but they are THE authority on the subject:

http://www.parker.com/literature/ORD%205700%20Parker_O-Ring_Handbook.pdf

[Frank S]

Leather seal were the media of choice back in the day they were even used in early hydraulic cylinders.
 some things about leather it can be formed to take the shape of what ever mold  very easy for anyone to make a pair of mold halves out of wood or what ever just cut a circular swatch of leather soak it until it becomes soft and pliable then place it in your mold use 2 or more layers for extra thick heavy duty seals clamp the mold halves together and allow to dry in direct sunlight or baking at low heat for several hours  permissible . once the leather is completely dry trim the excess to form the lip. you now have your own custom made leather cup seal punch out the center hole and install.
 Farmers never went to a supply house for new seals for their windmills

[Frank S]

I found this I hope it posts
 How to make a leather piston seal.pdf (164.93 kB - downloaded 1562 times.)

[smiler123]

4 meters total head?
You should be able to make either the cups or leather seals work, if you put pairs back-to-back.
Otherwise I don't see why the o-ring seal won't work.  Have you tried either seal yet?

This might download slowly, but they are THE authority on the subject:

http://www.parker.com/literature/ORD%205700%20Parker_O-Ring_Handbook.pdf

Yes 4 metres total head - the pump will be halfway between the bottom of a sump and the top of a header tank.

I`m thinking o-rings will wear too quickly due to lack of lubrication. I can`t use any oil or grease because this is for pumping water in an aquaponics set up.
I`m planning a tower and windmill (although smaller) similar to the multi-blade set-ups used for years in the USA - relatively slow speed/high torque, geared down a bit and play around with the length of stroke to get the best performance from the pump.
Most pumps of this type only "pull" the water on the up stroke and IMHO the down stroke is a waste of energy.
I just made a small sketch to explain what I`m trying to achieve, but it was 7mb - probably too big to upload here.
Imagine a 2" vertical pipe coming from a sump, at 2metres high is a T-piece with the branch piped to a header tank which is another 2metres higher. There is a check valve under the T-piece and also on the branch of the T. Above the T-piece is the piston. On the up stroke water is pulled up the lower pipe and on the down stroke the water is push through the branch of the T-piece up towards the header tank.
I`m thinking that cups or leather seals back to back won`t work because above the piston should be dry. Pressure helps the cups seal, right? There won`t be any pressure above the piston.

[SparWeb]

Not what I was picturing at all.
I thought you were talking about a piston that is "wet" on both faces.  Common practice in hydraulics, really, so why not in "aquaponics"?
Here's what I propose:  Each end of the cylinder has 2 ports, one in, one out.  Check valve on each.  Since there are two input ports, one on each end of the cylinder, they can be supplied by the same manifold, and that manifold draws from the source.  The outputs are also combined, that's the run that goes up to the higher header tank.
If you picture a "dual-action cylinder" (or google the term) you'll be a bit mis-led, because those systems have control valves that reverse flow.  You probably don't want that.
There's still a piston reciprocating in the tube, but the only difficult part will be the seal on the rod-end of the cylinder.  That will require o-rings.
Yeah, it moves slowly, but the pressure is also low.
Water is a lubricant.  I doubt that will be your biggest problem.

Stepping back a bit...   demanding a lot of torque from a water-pumping windmill may be expecting more than can be delivered.  Test your cylinder idea before building a "nice" turbine rotor for it.  There's no power in light winds and that is because of both low speed and low torque.  Not an ideal start-up situation when you are expecting liquid to come out of the tap!

Sketches in windows Paintbrush (or the like) get large when you save them as BMP by default.  Save it as GIF or JPG instead and see if it helps the file size.

[SparWeb]

...and I'd be willing to try Frank's tips about leather seals, if you have access to the raw materials.
O-rings are very fussy machining tasks, require lathes and the like.
Leather seals can be put in with much simpler tools (ie clamping disks together).

[Frank S]

I'm not sure why people seem to get hung up on trying to grab every last %age of efficiency out of a system going with a double acting pump just doesn't make much sense. the up stroke is still going to use more energy than the down stroke due to the weight of the sucker rod the pistons and GRAVITY.
 an easy way to over come this and actually use less energy to raise the water would be to design the pump to work on the down stroke forget about the up stroke this way the weight of the rod helps to lift the water the absence of the weight of the water allows the sail to raise the rod and piston with less effort.
 water enters the bottom of the pump and is prevented from escaping by the foot valve the water is held in the riser pipe by the check valve only one leather needed
 a variation to this would be instead of the water entering from under the piston via the foot valve would be the the top of the pump tube is below table level water enters from the back side of the piston. the piston has a check valve to allow the water to pass freely on the up stroke. Then the water is forced out the bottom through the riser check valve where it is held in column until the next stroke forces more water .
 windmillers have been doing this since the dawn of time
 they use 2 basic types of pumps rod through the riser pipe and stand alone riser with the rod separate with guides for long lengths on either system
 one more note if your thinking about a turbine blade set up forget it Turbines do not produce torque until they obtain their design TSR at speed.
 a Sail fan begins to develop torque the second the wind pressure is enough to over come what ever load is on the sail
 the torque of a sail can be figured on  the flat disc theory for wind calc speed is determined by the air foil CD
 want to turn it into watts or joules fine but your not making electricity

[smiler123]

Thanks for all the advice - problem is you`ve given me more options to think about. 

Oh well - back to the drawing board. 

[smiler123]

This is the sketch I made.....

Edited to add - PS Scratch that - didn`t work out too clearly

[Frank S]

in my post I mentioned yat you could build a down stroke pump I may have failed to mention however these were nit very popular for a couple of reasons  they required teh sucker rod to have guide rings along the outside of the riser pipe and this meant they were non lubricated.
 up stroke pumps the rod is inside the riser pipe this requires a packing seal at the top but that is simply a rope like substance sometimes a product called Oakum the same stuff that used to be used in cast iron drain pipe connections. I've seen everything from wool to raw cotton to horse mane leather swatches old coveralls even silk scarfs.
up stroke pumps can be counter weighted in the gear box if you have a very low power fan
 here are some pics of pumps
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[smiler123]

Thanks Frank and Sparweb

It looks like the simpler "old fashioned" pull method is the easiest to fabricate - I guess it has worked for more than a hundred years, so why question the method?
Most things I do, I end up trying to reinvent the wheel and I guess KISS is the way to go here.
Back to the drawing board and I will try to get some time on the lathe at work in the next few weeks.


PS Just had another dangerous thought - what about a twin cylinder pump - working from opposite ends of the crankshaft. That should balance out the unequal up and down strokes of a "pull" pump. Or even a 4 cylinder or 6.............has anyone ever made a V8 water pump?? 

[Frank S]

First off I'm not sure exactly what you are trying t o do with this water you mentioned you were wanting to raise water 4 meters from a sump to a tank
 Then you started to talk about putting the pump half way up the rise height. I think that notion has been pretty much disposed of  or I hope it has
Now you are maybe  thinking about trying to increase the efficiency by using a 2 piston pump to counter act as a counter weight for the stroke. there is nothing wrong with the idea per-say except that it will mean you will have double the friction of the seals to overcome.
 You also mentioned something along the lines of this being much smaller than a normal water windmill .
 My question now is what volume of water do you actually need to move?
 Don't get too hung up on trying to extract every last bit of energy out of a given size piece of equipment.
 Far too many people get way to anal in search of the maximum bang for the buck I see this over and over time and time again in just about every field of endeavor   doing this is great as experiments to determine how far the envelope can be pushed but for practical use the costs never balance out Not in something as simple as a several hundred year old design of a wind driven water pump> not in a high tech super computer system. or a wind turbine driven generator. NOT EVEN in the world's tallest building
 I will enclose a guide chart  of wind mill size to volume moved
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 Now this chart doe not include the wind velocity required to achieve these outputs. I would have to try and locate the reference article I found it in.
there are calculations and formulas that will tell you just how much work can be expected from a wind mill.
" Copied from http://mysite.du.edu/~jcalvert/tech/fluids/fan.htm
An 8' wheel has an area of 50.2 ft2. The maximum operating wind velocity is 30 mph, or 44 fps, which gives 2.25 ft-lb/ft3. The total power available in the wind intercepted is then 4976 ft-lb/s or about 9 hp. At an efficiency of 50%, this means that a maximum of 4.5 hp is available. With an average wind of 15 mph or so, about 0.56 hp should be available, which can still pump a lot of water. The rapid variation of output with wind speed is one of the difficulties in applying wind power. Windmills are most useful for winds of Beaufort Force 4 to Force 6, or 15 to 30 mph. Over this range, their power varies by a factor of 8. Weaker winds will not provide sufficient power, while stronger winds may be damaging, and require that either the vanes be feathered or the wheel turned parallel to the wind. "Composed by J. B. Calvert Created 24 July 2003 Last revised 9 August 2003"
"J. Reynolds, Windmills and Watermills (New York: Praeger, 1970)."
"J. K. Salisbury, ed., Kent's Mechanical Engineer's Handbook, 12th ed. (New York: John Wiley & Sons, 1950). Power Volume, pp. 1-57 to 1-96; 15-18 to 15-22; 15-38 to 15-40."
"R. L. Daugherty and J. B. Franzini, Fluid Mechanics, 6th ed. (New York: McGraw-Hill, 1965). pp. 162-165."

[Frank S]

this might help you
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 it is a long read but can help explain many of your questions or possibly the questions of others
 I have several questions of some of his results and may  feel a need to verify some of his equations  not that I would probably still remember many of the alternate formulas to the formulas he used 

[smiler123]

Frank

You are a mine of information - thank you.

A bit more background to the aquaponics system....
I am planning moving to Portugal in the next year or so and want to live off grid.
I want to use aquaponics to raise fish and vegetables for food year round.
The biggest cost in AP is pumping water.
I will be starting with a small system, but hope to expand to the point where I will need to circulate around 800litres/hour 24/7 between a header tank, grow-beds, fish tank and sump. I need to pump the water from the sump up around 3-4meters to the header tank, gravity returns the water through the grow-beds, fish tank and sump.
I am planning on using a solar system for electricity to run the house and aquaponics system. I am hoping I can pump as much of the water as possible with wind, with an electric pump on float switches taking up the shortfall. Not all days are windy and not all days are sunny(although Portugal does have it`s fair share of sun). I haven`t bought a place there yet so I don`t have any wind stats although I am looking to buy somewhere near the west coast which, each time I have been, seems to have a near constant westerly breeze coming off the Atlantic. Due to planning regs, I don`t want a massive tower, hoping I can use something not too high - maybe 6-8 metres without any building/trees blocking the wind. Even if I could only manage to pump, say an average of 100-200litres/hour at least it will take a little strain off the batteries.

The idea of putting the pump halfway up the rise height was to try and equalize the load for a "pull/push" type pump I was originally thinking of.

The 2 cylinder "pull" pump was another "dangerous" thought of mine (I have many  ) to, as you say, act as a counterweight for the stroke. The 4,6 and 8 cylinder remarks were definitely tongue in cheek. 

It is difficult, if not damn near impossible to design and build a wind powered pump without knowing how much wind is available so my plan was to build something that "seemed" right and gear it`s speed down by altering the stroke or using pulleys to match the average available wind on site.

I am not very good at using complicated calculations when designing things, more a "build it and modify" type person. The wind pump is more of a hobby thing than a necessity.
I could take the easy way out and just use a larger solar only system, but I like a challenge.

My main concern was whether to use o-rings as seals on a "pull/push" type pump, but I think due to the advice given I`m going to go with a proper old fashioned leather cup seal on a "pull" type pump after all.

[smiler123]

this might help you
(Attachment Link)
 it is a long read but can help explain many of your questions or possibly the questions of others
 I have several questions of some of his results and may  feel a need to verify some of his equations  not that I would probably still remember many of the alternate formulas to the formulas he used

Thanks Frank
You posted while I was typing my last post - I have downloaded the pdf and will read it tomorrow morning - a little late here now and time for some ZZZZZZZ`s.

Thanks again.

[Frank S]

in that case read these
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[Bruce S]

Sorry I'm so late to this , but fish farming is something I think I can help with  .
Out in New Bloomfield, MO, US I helped with a setup that is also a teaching place.
They use Tilapia as the fish since they are a good robust fish that lends itself to fish farming, even in old horse troughs .
I've not yet read completely through the setup, but will very soon.
in the mean time can you give me a visual setup of what you have in mind?

 the water is pumped much slower than your refresh rate. SO unless you plan on having an overly amount of fish in the unit, 50L/hour the keep the water aerated should me more than enough.
Out here/there the setup works like this: the outlet or the holding tank is setup at the bottom of the tank, so the effluence and water is caught and plumbed upwards with a "T" joint and short piece of PVC cut 1/3 top removed so the water slurry mix is allowed to trickle through the plant feeder bed made up of small gravel and sand.
You probably already know this as flood feeding, which cleans the water.

It works quite well, slow feeding allows the water to stay fairly clean , no algae growth and fish are grown the no more than 750g in weight.
Veggies grown successfully so far is Tomatoes now looking like small trees, green beans, ALL known leaf based herbs, Swiss chard (BUT can quickly get out of hand and grow too big to be tasty), and Peppers of various heat levels and colors, lettuce seems to thrive too well.
Kayle,eve grown directly from seed seems to be an attractant for aphids and we/they had to almost go with insecticides , but go everything under control with liberal amount of ladybugs, hand washing and getting the Kayle moved out of there to the outdoors where dish-soap and water could be used directly.
Light levels are keep directed towards plants using Aluminum foil, mirrors with light being kept as indirect for fish to lessen any possible algae growth.
Water is kept about 84F (29C).

It's been running more than 4 years this way with only items switched out was a non-contact pump motor instead of submersible ( I provided the submersible , since no one at that time thought about how they were going to pump the water )
and fingerling catfish being added to see how well they would grow eating any possible algae and food missed by Tilapia.
Hope this helps
Bruce S

[gww]

Bruce s
Is new bloomfield where lary rice holds the energy fairs?
gww

[smiler123]

Thanks again for all your replies and info.

I managed to salvage a hydraulic ram from the scrap bin at work.
It is 40mm bore and around 450mm long.
I cut the top and bottom off as the connections were much too small for what I want it to do.
It is in good condition and the inside wall is spotless.
I just got to work out what material it is(a magnet won`t stick to it) to weld on a couple of flanges. It is probably stainless which makes it perfect regarding corrosion.
I`m going with the trusted "pull" type piston with a leather seal and a bronze bush guide at the top flange.
I`m looking out for something to use as a "cage" on the piston to hold a ball to act as a secondary check valve along with a check valve in the lower flange.
I found some leather about 3mm thick to make a few seals.
I`m also on the lookout for a couple of bearings, some shaft, something to make a crank, hub and blades....then there`s material for the tower........

Did I mention there`s no rush? 

PS Bruce - I hope to expand the system to a 10,000 litre fish tank, so will eventually need to pump total 800 litres/hour to manage 2 water changes per day. The wind pump is just a small contribution to the total amount of water that needs pumping, solar/electric pump will cover the rest. Also the wind pump will be a small backup in case of failure of the solar/electric pump system. At least there would be some filtration going on until repairs could be made.

I will post some photos when progress starts.

[ghurd]

I am not sure where this fits in...  Seems worth mentioning.

Aeration can be done with very little electrical power.
The nitrogen is concentrated at the bottom.  Getting that water to the surface allows for natural exchange of gasses.
Blowing tiny bubbles with an aerator ring in a verticle pipe causes the water to rise by gravity.  If the top of the pipe is 3mm(?) below the surface, a tiny bit of electrical power can move a lot of water.

If the top of the pipe was 20cm above the water, a side discharge slightly below the water level could move the water through a filter that had the same water level as the fish tank.  Then a return from the filter the same way.

Something I nearly set up for a small pond was a small brushless solar-powered waterfall pump at the top of a pipe.  Top of pipe slightly above the surface.  Pump moves water from inside the pipe to outside the pipe, and that water is moving from the bottom of the tank to the surface.
Can get those pumps with the solar panel for $25 to $50?
Some of them move 3 or 4 liters per minute at 0 head, which sounds cost effective to me.

It would not "change" the water in any of those configurations, but should reduce the required quantity of 'changed water' per day.

Overall general idea,



G-

[Frank S]

I don't want to toss too many stones into the river but unless you are doing this fish tank thing as a personal hobby so you can have your own fresh fish to eat once in a while. Successful fish farms hardly ever function as a standalone system.
 they will start to become a profitable venture only when they reach a certain size and are combined with agriculture. One very good way is Aeronautics and hydroponics then carry on to irrigated crops
water from a fish tank is rich in nutrients that can be used in conjunction with either hydroponics or aeroponics or a combination there of aeroponics uses the water misted over the root structure of plants this does 2 things 1 the plants absorb the nutrients left behind from the fish and the act of misting add oxygen to the water the water that drains off is higher in nitrogen and oxygen ready to be returned to the fish tank or to the hydroponic tank from ther the water could be slightly slurry-ed with ground up fish parts from the slaughter & cleaning station to a large holding area for the production of algae or skimmed and used as the moisturizer for the composting section or used directly as irrigation for fields
 you need from 5 to seven ponds depending on your operation from hatchery, fingerling, juvenile, 2 to 3 grow out, breeding  and resting tanks  if you are in an arid region then consider covering the ponds like you would a green house this helps do a couple of things #1 is it keeps the birds from stealing your stock you can shape them in a Quonset shape and vent the lower portions of the sides for air circulation.
 A few years ago a really good article was done on desert fish farming.
 what your are doing fits in with my plans on when I return to Texas I had been looking into  Eastern Europe but there is a thing called a wife who thinks she wants to return to Texas for our retirement I plan to use wind and solar for the energy for most if not all of the farming operation  just a small hobby farm though of 10 to 50 acres I will take arid land mostly sand, & caliche hard pan and gradually transform it one thing I have in my favor is according to several folks I have known for years who have either lived in the area or currently live in the region know there is a large amount of bentonite in the area as well I will use this as a sealing substrate under the sand for the ponds  fish are an excellent way to return neutrients to soil I will have to acidify the alkaline caliche but I have a model for doing this as well

[smiler123]

Frank

My plan is aquaponics as a hobby for food.......



I think it would be too large a financial investment for me to go commercial.

[Bruce S]

Bruce s
Is new bloomfield where lary rice holds the energy fairs?
gww

Yes it is! You up near there?
His setup was doing quite well. IF you go , don't ask too detailed questions about the windy boys  .
I have nephew in-law family up near there, they stay well away for that spot when the fairs are going on due to the "NUT JOBS" that come out of the wood work when they have them.

[midwoud1]

Smiler123

A windpowered rope-pump  can be useful.   Holland design.
There are drawings on internet as well.

   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E1qIdvH1bvM 

    Rgds  -Frans-




           

[gww]

Bruce s
I am from owensville Mo.  I have a daughter that is an eye docter in marshfeild and another daughter living in springfield.  I haven't looked at the map but isn't new bloomfield near marshfield.  I sometimes keep chanel 24 on as back ground noise as its the only place on the tube you can see a windturbine but I've never went to any of the fairs.  I'm too cheap to get satilight tv so I don't know what they might show.  I do know there was a old feed mill in springfield that a guy was raising fish and using old bathtubs to grow plants in.  I think he sells organic grown food, milk and eggs and such.  Never been there yet either.  I like it out in the boonies and find I am a bit of a hermit except for going to my parents places or family.  I would kind of like to do some of that stuff though.  I mean raising fish.  I would like to build a wood gasifier, build a green house,  make some methain, biodesel,  etc etc...  Still don't have my solar and wind turbines up yet.  I'm 50 years old so who knows how much I'll get done before I die.
Thanks for the responce
gww

[Bruce S]

Hey neighbor!!
You happen to be the closet AE/RE person near me since I lost track of NTL!
Our youngest granddaughter and their family lives in Springfield where her other grandpaw is a Doc of some sort, Nice guy !
My Niece's in-laws live up in the New Bloomfield area. Nice people, great to talk with and just hang out, told me I can come out and play at being a farmer anytime I feel the need  .
You're not much more than 11/2hours from where I live. Out 44 then off 50(I think). Used to be a medical clinic in town-ish I used to work on EKG equipment out there as is was just out past sullivan and easy drive for me.
50!! That all!
I'd say get the solar up and doing something, even if it means sitting them up facing south so they're dumping something into some batteries. Winter's coming and this year the wooly worms say it's gonna be a doosey  !
OP!! SORRY for the tangent , but most on here I go see are several sates and at least 13hours drive away.
Nice to have someone in the general area.
Best Regards
Bruce S

[gww]

Bruce s
You happen to be the closest I know in solar and wind.  I am in indiana for now but my retirement date should be October 1 2013.  I still have my place in Mo and will be home before deer season 2013.  I live on 21 acres and my old man has 180.  Perhaps you will visit when I get going.  If I had more vacation I would try to get it going but it seems a waste to put the batteries there and making them older before I can actually use them.  I have a months vacation coming before the end of this year and then I probly wont take off till I retire because it could make it longer before I can leave.  I will probly work every minute of overtime trying to move my retirement date up to September 1. Great to know there is someone close.
thanks
gww

[Bruce S]

I was in Indiana when that Freak ice storm came through!
I even sent pictures to the local and Stl Based tv stations.
We were literally the last car that got through to the south before they closed the highway.
People didn't arrive at the holiday inn express til 3Am.

I'll be here, getting out to where you'll be will be a snap, possibly we can get something going once you're out that way.
I know , in the past the Dans have had windmill classes here in the Midwest, perhaps they'll have one we can attend. I'd like to put this knowledge to work on something more than what I can raise here in the city.
Cheers
Bruce S

[gww]

Bruce S
I think the dans actually had a class about 3 years ago in gerald mo.  This is about 4 miles from my house and about 6 miles from owensville.  I had heard that someone had moved from colorado to the gerald area that was maby connected to it.  Thats about the time my plant closed and I had to move here.  This forums about the only thing I ever joined except the union in my life.  The knowladge here has made the stuggle to understand stuff quite a bit easier.  I got two hugh 8'ers already built just got to get them up.  Plenty of room.
gww

[midwoud1]

Wind powered waterpump  . Design WOT university  ,

http://www3.zetatalk.com/docs/Windmill_Pumping/Pu500-Water_Water_Pumping_Low_Tech_Windmill_2001.pdf

Rgds. - Frans -

[smiler123]

Wind powered waterpump  . Design WOT university  ,

http://www3.zetatalk.com/docs/Windmill_Pumping/Pu500-Water_Water_Pumping_Low_Tech_Windmill_2001.pdf

Rgds. - Frans -

Thank you Frans - some very good info there.