Lead Acid Battery Charts

[BillBlake]

Rolls changed their website and left the Life Cycles Charts out this time.
It might be nice to have a thread with some charts that can be easily pulled up.
Will have to dig some up and get them entered into the thread fairly soon.

To get started here's a Link with Rolls Charts and some other various pictures.

http://images.search.yahoo.com/search/images?_adv_prop=image&fr=yfp-t-701&va=rolls+battery+chart

As you can see from the second picture (chart) someone can have The Rolls 4000 Series Cells
and be trying to tell you one thing

where another person is actually using the 5000 Series Cells

that Rolls claims has about 2.5 times (or so) more Cycles

or around 2.5 times MORE YEARS. Whole different deal isn't it?

So when you do your calculations it's nice to have a little idea of what is actually going on.

Bill Blake

[bob g]

i have all the charts laying around here somewhere, however

from the following source, which from memory is directly from rolls surrette

http://www.cosolar.com/catalog/cat_batteries.htm

the 4000 series is good for 1973 at 20% depth of discharge, and 1280 cycles at 50% depth of discharge

the 5000 series is rated at 5000 cycles at 20% and 3300 cycles at 50% depth of discharge.

there is a significant difference in expected lifespan of the two different offerings of the companies, and also two very different price schedules.

i will look around and see if i can find the charts

bob g

[BillBlake]

i have all the charts laying around here somewhere, however

from the following source, which from memory is directly from rolls surrette

http://www.cosolar.com/catalog/cat_batteries.htm

the 4000 series is good for 1973 at 20% depth of discharge, and 1280 cycles at 50% depth of discharge

the 5000 series is rated at 5000 cycles at 20% and 3300 cycles at 50% depth of discharge.

there is a significant difference in expected lifespan of the two different offerings of the companies, and also two very different price schedules.

i will look around and see if i can find the charts

bob g

So what your saying is that knowledge can be power.

For as little as another 22% in money a person can get 2.5 times as many years

in battery cycles as the man that puts out thousands of dollars on the wrong 4000 series?

How about staying away from parallel connections?

How smart is a bunch of parallel connections on top of the crippled number of Life Cycles?

Bill Blake

[ChrisOlson]

the 4000 series is good for 1973 at 20% depth of discharge, and 1280 cycles at 50% depth of discharge

Bob, according to my math you get better performance by cycling them to 50% instead of 80% SOC.

For a S-460 as an example, rated at 460 amp-hours:
20% DoD is 92 amp-hours/cycle x 1973 cycles = 181,516 ah, or 1,089 kWh
50% DoD is 230 amp-hours/cycle x 1280 cycles = 294,400 ah, or 1,766 kWh

You get 62% more energy storage and use from the battery if it is more deeply cycled, vs shallow cycling it.
--
Chris

[BillBlake]

the 4000 series is good for 1973 at 20% depth of discharge, and 1280 cycles at 50% depth of discharge

Bob, according to my math you get better performance by cycling them to 50% instead of 80% SOC.

For a S-460 as an example, rated at 460 amp-hours:
20% DoD is 92 amp-hours/cycle x 1973 cycles = 181,516 ah, or 1,089 kWh
50% DoD is 230 amp-hours/cycle x 1280 cycles = 294,400 ah, or 1,766 kWh

You get 62% more energy storage and use from the battery if it is more deeply cycled, vs shallow cycling it.
--
Chris

So does this mean that the Rolls 4000 Series battery is only rated for 3.5 years at 50% DOD when
the Rolls 5000 Series battery is rated for 9 years at THE SAME 50% DOD?
Isn't dat terrible?

If you dumped $9600 into the 4000 Series and wore them out in 3.5 years that's
$2742.85 per year. That's over $228 per month just for batteries!

When statements and observations are being made about storage batteries it may pay to
know which product is being spoken about and which Series is well worth
(as little as) the extra 22% per kWh to make ALL those EXTRA Years 'really start to talk'.

Same as you can't add Wind Power to a Solar Charging System and say this is how it has to be
for straight Solar people. No it don't.

The two Lines of batteries are just as different as the 2 home power set-ups are.

Trying to force the same rules and tricks on the poor 4000's that the 5000's enjoy makes
no sense.

It will be good to see what other Battery Companies have to claim about their Life Cycles.

Bill Blake

[bob g]

Chris

the number i posted were from a reference that referenced reports by rolls/surrette. i have no idea how accurate that might be?

to me the use of a manufactures numbers is a starting point from which one can work from, adjust to his needs and maybe get a different result?

as things are now, my plan to go with the 5000 series has been put on indefinite hold, as i explore another direction with the system.

having said that i surely appreciate folks such as yourself, that provide real world experience with a specific battery bank, connected in a specific way, with a specific charge regime, and get to track it over time.

that is worth about 100 times that of those with anecdotal evidence wherein they don't document, test or do anything that approaches scientific method. even that is worth about 100 times that...

of some guy that has started to do research into batteries, the care and maintenance and use, maybe 6 months ago.

so i guess that puts your reports, claims/assertions light years ahead of some others that frequent AE/RE forums.

i for one appreciate that!

what i don't appreciate is someone popping up, making bold claims, providing no proof of concept, or data to support such claims. the reason i don't appreciate such is it derails newbies, and gets everyone distracted.  then we get to go back and recover ground that has been well traveled.

with that sort of behavior its a wonder anything gets done as a result of a forum, hard to make progress if you constantly have to recover ground over and over again, all because someone wanting to be a guru stirs the pot constantly.

this whole offgrid lifestyle, system, problem or whatever one wants to call it is fraught with many variables as it is, one would like to think we could eliminate some of the variables so that things could progress.

those that understand this concept generally are those that actually can "do", and those that can't get their head around this concept never will "do".

thankfully Chris you are one that not only understands, but can do, can explain what is done, and also offers alternate explanations for his results. 

also thankfully most of the membership here leans in the same direction, at least to the best of their ability.

stepping off the soapbox now, sorry for the digression folks, it is just something that has been on my mind for several days now.

before i shutup and set down, i would like to add this

a few years ago, while working researching the capabilities of the 110-555jho prestolite leece/neville alternator, during a string of test runs it became apparent that the alternator as i was using it was nearly 80% efficient.

now my first thought was, "bob, you have done something wrong, or misread something, failed to account for some factor, something?"

what i did not do was jump onto the forum and announce anything

i went back and double checked my work, then set out to rerun another battery of tests on the unit at its native voltage and verified that the oem efficiency number were spot on at the native voltage...

i then retested with another series of leece neville alternators and got another result, one that supported my first findings..

blah blah blah, different meters, multiples of meters, different methods, etc to try and get a different result.. only then did i conclude i was right.  but i still did not go out and claim anything in public

what i did do was write up a 15 page white paper, outlining every aspect of testing to support my findings,  then i published it to be peer reviewed...

i even found alternate explanations for the findings, and did my best to document the whole process "7ways from sunday"

and i released all the information and documentation so that anyone interested could replicate the process and get the same result. so far to date there are several such systems in operation all over the globe.

this does not make me a guru or expert on anything, it does however illustrate that i am trying to do it right!

so yes i take a very dim view of anyone that purports to be an expert, while releasing no documentation, no white paper for review, and expects to be paid in advance for his so called knowledge.

i don't know anyone that would buy a car for instance from a guy that won't let you take a look at it first, or at least look at some documentation, nada?

so yes i am still a bit miffed! 

i feel a lot better now.



bob g

[nickskethisnikske]

the 4000 series is good for 1973 at 20% depth of discharge, and 1280 cycles at 50% depth of discharge

Bob, according to my math you get better performance by cycling them to 50% instead of 80% SOC.

For a S-460 as an example, rated at 460 amp-hours:
20% DoD is 92 amp-hours/cycle x 1973 cycles = 181,516 ah, or 1,089 kWh
50% DoD is 230 amp-hours/cycle x 1280 cycles = 294,400 ah, or 1,766 kWh

You get 62% more energy storage and use from the battery if it is more deeply cycled, vs shallow cycling it.
--
Chris

Hi Chris, one note I'd like to add, you didn't put in the voltage drop in the equation !

You would have an higher average voltage on the 20% DOD range then in the 50% DOD range, and this is important if we are talking about kWh.

But you are still right, but maybe it would be more like 50-55% then 62 % 

[BillBlake]

Chris

the number i posted were from a reference that referenced reports by rolls/surrette. i have no idea how accurate that might be?

to me the use of a manufactures numbers is a starting point from which one can work from, adjust to his needs and maybe get a different result?

as things are now, my plan to go with the 5000 series has been put on indefinite hold, as i explore another direction with the system.

having said that i surely appreciate folks such as yourself, that provide real world experience with a specific battery bank, connected in a specific way, with a specific charge regime, and get to track it over time.

that is worth about 100 times that of those with anecdotal evidence wherein they don't document, test or do anything that approaches scientific method. even that is worth about 100 times that...

of some guy that has started to do research into batteries, the care and maintenance and use, maybe 6 months ago.

so i guess that puts your reports, claims/assertions light years ahead of some others that frequent AE/RE forums.

i for one appreciate that!

what i don't appreciate is someone popping up, making bold claims, providing no proof of concept, or data to support such claims. the reason i don't appreciate such is it derails newbies, and gets everyone distracted.  then we get to go back and recover ground that has been well traveled.

with that sort of behavior its a wonder anything gets done as a result of a forum, hard to make progress if you constantly have to recover ground over and over again, all because someone wanting to be a guru stirs the pot constantly.

this whole offgrid lifestyle, system, problem or whatever one wants to call it is fraught with many variables as it is, one would like to think we could eliminate some of the variables so that things could progress.

those that understand this concept generally are those that actually can "do", and those that can't get their head around this concept never will "do".

thankfully Chris you are one that not only understands, but can do, can explain what is done, and also offers alternate explanations for his results. 

also thankfully most of the membership here leans in the same direction, at least to the best of their ability.

stepping off the soapbox now, sorry for the digression folks, it is just something that has been on my mind for several days now.

before i shutup and set down, i would like to add this

a few years ago, while working researching the capabilities of the 110-555jho prestolite leece/neville alternator, during a string of test runs it became apparent that the alternator as i was using it was nearly 80% efficient.

now my first thought was, "bob, you have done something wrong, or misread something, failed to account for some factor, something?"

what i did not do was jump onto the forum and announce anything

i went back and double checked my work, then set out to rerun another battery of tests on the unit at its native voltage and verified that the oem efficiency number were spot on at the native voltage...

i then retested with another series of leece neville alternators and got another result, one that supported my first findings..

blah blah blah, different meters, multiples of meters, different methods, etc to try and get a different result.. only then did i conclude i was right.  but i still did not go out and claim anything in public

what i did do was write up a 15 page white paper, outlining every aspect of testing to support my findings,  then i published it to be peer reviewed...

i even found alternate explanations for the findings, and did my best to document the whole process "7ways from sunday"

and i released all the information and documentation so that anyone interested could replicate the process and get the same result. so far to date there are several such systems in operation all over the globe.

this does not make me a guru or expert on anything, it does however illustrate that i am trying to do it right!

so yes i take a very dim view of anyone that purports to be an expert, while releasing no documentation, no white paper for review, and expects to be paid in advance for his so called knowledge.

i don't know anyone that would buy a car for instance from a guy that won't let you take a look at it first, or at least look at some documentation, nada?

so yes i am still a bit miffed! 

i feel a lot better now.



bob g

So does ALL this mean that you do believe Rolls Surrette or you don't believe them?
Is tying up a lot of money in the 4000 Series in long parallel strings the way for 'newbies'
to go according to bob - just because someone did it?

What about the (as little as) 22% price difference for the Rolls 5000 over the Rolls 4000.
You mentioned the price difference. Let's calmly inform the newbies.
No need to wag the dog. Everybody can already see many things.

Bill Blake

[birdhouse]

i recently spent some time on trojan's website.  it is interesting that they offer many types of deep cycle batteries.  they have charts showing amount of cycles versus depth of discharge.  at the 20% DOD, some are rated for 3000 cycles, some 4000 and some 5000. 

i'm sure the higher the cycles, the more spendy they are, but it may well be worth the money in the end. 

just some thoughts. 

adam

[ChrisOlson]

the number i posted were from a reference that referenced reports by rolls/surrette. i have no idea how accurate that might be?

I don't know - I would suspect it's a guideline to figure life expectancy of the battery.  But they don't say what happens after those cycles are reached - is the battery shot, or does it just start to lose capacity?  I would suspect the latter, otherwise none of them would make it thru the warranty period.

I can only relate my experience with this and let you decide -
Our average daily power usage is about 24 kWh in our off-grid home and our bank is 58 kW.  So we have roughly 29 kWh usable capacity down to 50% SOC.  But here's what happens - if your RE sources are sized right for the bank and your usage, even for us living here in the North, that's only roughly 5% of the time that the bank actually gets cycled down to 50% (going by my power logs and the hours we put on the generator every year).

Our RE sources are sized to provide us with 24 kWh/day on the average day.  We can get more than that some days - I think our record is 60-some kWh in one day when the wind turbines got going really good and both of our water heaters were full of cold water.  And we can get less than that on a "bad" day.

So let's say we get five bad days in a row.  We're going to still use 24 kWh/day so we use a total of 120 kWh.  But we get, consecutively, 21, 18, 16, 18, and 18 kWh from RE sources on the five days.  This all adds up to 91 kWh.  On Day 5 we are now 29 kWh short of what we have used and the bank is finally down to 50% SOC.  At that point, if the settings in your inverter are correct, it starts the generator and takes care of the problem.

So what I'm saying is that the bank does not get cycled down to 50% every single day.  Our bank is sized to carry all our of normal loads for about 29 consecutive hours with zero incoming RE power.  The days you get zero incoming power are very, very rare.  Even on a cloudy day solar panels make SOME power, and either there's enough daylight to get power from solar, or all three of our wind turbines are running.  It's less than 5% of the time that everything grinds to a halt and that generator has to start.

Therefore you get 7-10 years from those batteries.  You have to stop thinking in the extreme and consider for a moment how a real-world off-grid system actually works.

That's my .02 cents on it.

Hi Chris, one note I'd like to add, you didn't put in the voltage drop in the equation !

Hi nick - yes, I used nominal voltage for my numbers, as it was just sort of a rough comparison.
--
Chris

Edit:
I want to add a note in different terms in case some folks misunderstand what I'm saying -
In my real-world example above, the bank starts out at 100% SOC and it gets cycled to 50% SOC, the generator starts and brings it back up to 100%.  That 50% cycle takes five days, not one day as some folks are assuming here.  And a five day cycle down to 50% is well within the "safe" time for a true deep cycle battery to be fully recharged without long term sulfation problems.

So now, if you take your 1280 cycles at 50%, and try to figure that on a daily basis, you come up with 3.5 years.  But if you apply a factor of five to it, as per my above example - that 3.5 years and 1280 cycles to 50% becomes 17.5 years with the same number of cycles down to 50%.

Realistically, other things set in that cause the battery to die well before the 17.5 years.  But I think folks should be able to start seeing the relationship that I'm talking about, in that it is a poorly designed off-grid system that cycles the bank down to 50% SOC every single day.

[BillBlake]

Adam,

There is a lot of gross profit in batteries. You can find a good 25% (or so) in price difference
in a top notch battery once in a while - LIKE RIGHT NOW.

That can be up to several thousand in savings to you.
It's always the customers responsibility to try and figure out what's happening.
Multiple viewpoints are nice. I don't have to buy it to listen to it. When you get a
problem person that feels it necessary to censor others it can get old in a hurry.

Over the last 1/2 Century or more many battery dealers have been generous with
their knowledge.
Especially Rolls Surrette. A good number of battery dealers are on my Holiday List.
I talked with one of
'The Rolls / Surrette Grandson's' up in New England for around 45 minutes years ago.
I've also talked with their former Plant Manager of many years a number of times.
He had / has a Battery Dealership in New England.

Like one of the largest Roll's Dealers told me in some cases they are discounting up to
around 50%.
So (in his words) the pro-rated part of the guarantee is near useless when your adjustment
is computed using TODAY'S LIST PRICE. The no jive, no jazz, no twisting,
no changing the subject years at 100% Coverage are what really matters -
the man told me.

Trojan has always enjoyed a huge reputation. I just never went for the short guarantee.
Perhaps they have improved it lately.

Bill Blake

[bob g]

their appears to be some confusion relating to my posting the expected lifespan in cycles between the 4000 series and the 5000 series

let me clear it up

the numbers i posted are directly from the link i also posted, these are not my numbers, they are reported numbers by that seller that are supposedly those of rolls/surrette.

i have no clue how accurate they are, although from memory the 5000 series spec's are in line with what rolls/surrette used to have published on their website.

i have no direct knowledge to say if they will last that long, or if they will not last that long, furthermore i have not made an analysis of how much better value one series is over the other, or how much better or worse the results might be between cycling to 20% depth of discharge and 50% depth of discharge.

all i did was post a link and post info from that link, perhaps i should have put quotation marks around the data, it was an oversight on my part that might have led folks to think that i was making a recommendation or had some direct knowledge of actual numbers.

so whether a 4000 series will make 1900 odd cycles down to 20% state of discharge or not is up to someone else to quantify, not me!

i suspect the numbers published by the manufacture are pretty close to reality, if they are cared for to spec following the manufactures guidelines. however i also suspect there will be a margin window where there will be folks that never get to that lifespan while others will exceed it.

i think Chris has nailed it right on the head, one of the factors that needs to be remembered in the analysis is how many days within the cycle. certainly 5 days is going to lead to many more years of life than a 1 day cycle, and as he stated, there will likely be other issues that kill the battery before it makes 5times the lifespan of the 1 day cycle.

this is precisely the problem with focusing on a single component or single factor in the analysis. 

you really need to know your loads first, what you have to charge batteries with realistically, what your expected lifespan target is, now many days per cycle and a number of other things.

what appears to be a bargain might not be so after a full and careful analysis is made.

bob g

[BillBlake]

Bob,

<snip> i think Chris has nailed it right on the head, one of the factors that needs to be remembered in the analysis is how many days within the cycle. certainly 5 days is going to lead to many more years of life than a 1 day cycle, and as he stated, there will likely be other issues that kill the battery before it makes 5times the lifespan of the 1 day cycle.

this is precisely the problem with focusing on a single component or single factor in the analysis. 

<end snip>

Could you clear this '5 times the lifespan' up for me. This is getting real good now.

Also I'm still wondering if you like Chris's battery set-up using (24) Rolls 4000 Series T12 250's

in a LONG Parallel String. What was it something like $9600.00 US ?

Though I don't believe they are sold in the US now but I'm not sure. Perhaps Canada.

Must have been a whole lot of thought that you fellows put into dat one?

http://rollsbattery.com/public/specsheets/T12250.pdf

I'm going through some of Chris's Posts making notes before looking yours over Bob.

Bill Blake

[ChrisOlson]

Also I'm still wondering if you like Chris's battery set-up using (24) Rolls 4000 Series T12 250's

in a LONG Parallel String. What was it something like $9600.00 US ?

Though I don't believe they are sold in the US now but I'm not sure. Perhaps Canada.

Yes, T12-250's are sold in the US, although our dealer had to order them.

Bob doesn't have to like my battery setup, nor does anybody else.  I like it for one main reason - I weld in my shop using my inverters for power, without running the generator.  That bank of T12-250's can deliver 700 amps to my inverters and maintain voltage above nominal so the inverters don't kick out due to overload while I'm welding, plus simultaneously running other normal loads.

It takes a lot of parallel connections to deliver that kind of amps and maintain the voltage at or above 24.0 at full inverter surge load.  With a series string every single battery in that string would have to deliver 700 amps and the voltage sags.  With the parallel strings at 700 amps draw on the bank each battery only delivers 58 amps.
--
Chris

[BillBlake]

Also I'm still wondering if you like Chris's battery set-up using (24) Rolls 4000 Series T12 250's

in a LONG Parallel String. What was it something like $9600.00 US ?

Though I don't believe they are sold in the US now but I'm not sure. Perhaps Canada.

Yes, T12-250's are sold in the US, although our dealer had to order them.

Bob doesn't have to like my battery setup, nor does anybody else.  I like it for one main reason - I weld in my shop using my inverters for power, without running the generator.  That bank of T12-250's can deliver 700 amps to my inverters and maintain voltage above nominal so the inverters don't kick out due to overload while I'm welding, plus simultaneously running other normal loads.

It takes a lot of parallel connections to deliver that kind of amps and maintain the voltage at or above 24.0 at full inverter surge load.  With a series string every single battery in that string would have to deliver 700 amps and the voltage sags.  With the parallel strings at 700 amps draw on the bank each battery only delivers 58 amps.
--
Chris

Chris, Like I said I'm doing some work and looking at Posts to get a handle on it.
Like this one.

http://www.fieldlines.com/index.php/topic,147040.msg1012588.html#msg1012588


Bill Blake

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

<snip>

For us, the Load Start is a very important consideration because our inverters can only put out over rated power for a few minutes.  The generator has those few minutes to start, get its voltage and freq in spec so the inverter can sync with it, and transfer part of the loads to the generator (up to the max input amps entered in the menu for the generator) to reduce the load on the inverters back to below-rated output.  If the generator does not come online - our power goes out because the inverters shut down due to overload.

This is the single most important thing our generator does for us - battery charging is secondary.  And all last winter we had to be careful with loads to prevent a power outage due to the generator failing to start.  That defeats the whole purpose of the system, and one way or another I'm going to "fix" it with a generator that will start and can handle going to immediate full load without complaining.  That LP unit, even if it does start will sometimes bog out and quit due to low tank pressure in cold weather and it can't get enough fuel to it to maintain 10-14" WC at the regulator.

So it turns out LPG was a bad choice for us for a generator.  I guess that's what they mean when they say "live and learn".
--
Chris

[ChrisOlson]

Chris, Like I said I'm doing some work and looking at Posts to get a handle on it.

Well, to save you some work, we have the only off-grid inverters ever built that have generator support.  Neither Magnum Energy (presently) or Outback can do this.  Magnum and Outback inverters just have pass-thru transfer switches.

The Trace/Xantrex SW/XW-series inverters can sync with a generator to use it for load management.  The inverters are capable of delivering over rated power for a short time (anywhere from 11 seconds to a half hour depending on the load).  When the inverter goes into overload it starts the generator, syncs with it and uses the generator output to reduce the load on the inverters.

With load sharing inverters your total output capacity is the sum of what the generator can deliver, plus what the inverters can deliver to the loads.  Basically this means that with 8 kW of continuous inverter output capacity, we can run 12-14 kW loads continuous with generator support, using just a 6 kW generator.

Those extremely heavy loads are usually short and intermittent.  The extra expense involved with adding more inverter and battery capacity to run them is not justified.  For the time those loads are on generator power is a LOT cheaper in the long run than the battery and inverter power it would take to run them.

That's the gist of it.  It's an advanced system that not many people have.  But for us, it makes life a lot more convenient.
--
Chris

[BillBlake]

their appears to be some confusion relating to my posting the expected lifespan in cycles between the 4000 series and the 5000 series

let me clear it up

the numbers i posted are directly from the link i also posted, these are not my numbers, they are reported numbers by that seller that are supposedly those of rolls/surrette.

i have no clue how accurate they are, although from memory the 5000 series spec's are in line with what rolls/surrette used to have published on their website.

i have no direct knowledge to say if they will last that long, or if they will not last that long, furthermore i have not made an analysis of how much better value one series is over the other, or how much better or worse the results might be between cycling to 20% depth of discharge and 50% depth of discharge.

all i did was post a link and post info from that link, perhaps i should have put quotation marks around the data, it was an oversight on my part that might have led folks to think that i was making a recommendation or had some direct knowledge of actual numbers.

so whether a 4000 series will make 1900 odd cycles down to 20% state of discharge or not is up to someone else to quantify, not me!

i suspect the numbers published by the manufacture are pretty close to reality, if they are cared for to spec following the manufactures guidelines. however i also suspect there will be a margin window where there will be folks that never get to that lifespan while others will exceed it.

i think Chris has nailed it right on the head, one of the factors that needs to be remembered in the analysis is how many days within the cycle. certainly 5 days is going to lead to many more years of life than a 1 day cycle, and as he stated, there will likely be other issues that kill the battery before it makes 5times the lifespan of the 1 day cycle.

this is precisely the problem with focusing on a single component or single factor in the analysis. 

you really need to know your loads first, what you have to charge batteries with realistically, what your expected lifespan target is, now many days per cycle and a number of other things.

what appears to be a bargain might not be so after a full and careful analysis is made.

bob g

Bob, OK my mistake for asking 2 questions in one post. I'm sure that many now and over
the coming months and years are going to be fascinated with just how to:

'Use the batteries for 5 days but get 4 cycle days Free because we deficit charged
the badboys each day but the fifth day '.

Old Bill Loves it! You guys are the greatest.

You just need to really explain the statement (cool and slow) to folks.

Cool and slow doesn't always mean below accepted norms incidentally.

Just easy on everybody and everything that's involved. Pleasurable   

Please explain.

<snip>

i think Chris has nailed it right on the head, one of the factors that needs to be remembered in the analysis is how many days within the cycle. certainly 5 days is going to lead to many more years of life than a 1 day cycle, and as he stated, there will likely be other issues that kill the battery before it makes 5times the lifespan of the 1 day cycle.

this is precisely the problem with focusing on a single component or single factor in the analysis. 

you really need to know your loads first, what you have to charge batteries with realistically, what your expected lifespan target is, now many days per cycle and a number of other things.

what appears to be a bargain might not be so after a full and careful analysis is made.

bob g

<end of snip>

Bill Blake

[ChrisOlson]

'Use the batteries for 5 days but get 4 cycle days Free because we deficit charged
the badboys each day but the fifth day '.

It's not a deficit charge.  It's a long, slow continuous discharge with loads being offset by incoming RE power.  But the incoming does not meet loads long term, so the batteries undergo a five day long (or whatever) discharge down to 50% (or whatever).

I don't know who thought up that off-grid deep-cycle batteries have to be fully charged every single day.  They don't.  Batteries don't give a flyin' crap about one complete revolution of the earth like people do.  Every time a battery is discharged and fully recharged, that's a cycle.  It don't matter if that cycle is one Earth Day long, or five Earth Days as long as it's brought back to full charge on a frequent enough basis to prevent sulfation problems.

If you're going to continue making statements like "Old Bill Loves it! You guys are the greatest" then I'm going to assume you've cranked out the downriggers and are back to trolling again.  But none of us are going to bite because we've seen your baits before and we're not impressed.
--
Chris

[BillBlake]

'Use the batteries for 5 days but get 4 cycle days Free because we deficit charged
the badboys each day but the fifth day '.

It's not a deficit charge.  It's a long, slow continuous discharge with loads being offset by incoming RE power.  But the incoming does not meet loads long term, so the batteries undergo a five day long (or whatever) discharge down to 50% (or whatever).

I don't know who thought up that off-grid deep-cycle batteries have to be fully charged every single day.  They don't.  Batteries don't give a flyin' crap about one complete revolution of the earth like people do.  Every time a battery is discharged and fully recharged, that's a cycle.  It don't matter if that cycle is one Earth Day long, or five Earth Days as long as it's brought back to full charge on a frequent enough basis to prevent sulfation problems.

If you're going to continue making statements like "Old Bill Loves it! You guys are the greatest" then I'm going to assume you've cranked out the downriggers and are back to trolling again.  But none of us are going to bite because we've seen your baits before and we're not impressed.
--
Chris

Now, now - have I been anything other than a Gentlemen Chris?
I feel that the real problem is that you fellows are digging yourselves into the do-do.
A person can easily outsmart themselves when going up against major Corporations
that actually make the batteries.

Most everything I have ever said in this Group was just passing on info from the major players.
Then I threw a concept of my own out there for an honest discussion and you boys thought that
since you have run a lot of posts it was OK to ... well you know - ga-gbang the person in
rapid fire without really looking at it.

Now that thread has been shut down and we are in a NEW THREAD. Your walking into the domain of a Giant Battery Company doing business in a number of Countries.

Your going up against years of testing with your 5 to 1 statement

'Use 5 battery Days - Chris says 4 of them are Free'.

Though it may be over your head mentally somehow you
may be feeling a little queasy sub-consciously and decided to lash out at me for questioning
the 'great whoever'. Just another diversion that won't work on Old Bill.

So you made a few bucks in life and like for everybody to know what you got.
Congratulations. You guys are the greatest.

Problem is now you need to back it up.

When you charge a battery you have a cycle on your hands.

Even just a lunch-time charge is counted as a charge so they don't do it.

<snip>

Never make a habit of giving short charges during lunch or break time.

Each short charge constitutes a “cycle” and over time will significantly affect the performance

and life of the battery.

http://giantbatteryco.com/gbweb/GlobalLocator.html

Your cycle information is ridiculous as is your 'Battery String' which is going to cost you thousands of dollars.
I suggest you leave the comfort of your 'home group' and run that one
up the pole at another well known forum. There was another way to do it.

More than one group will give you balance and keep it real.
I know because I'm there sometimes.

Bill Blake

[bob g]

do we have to go down this road again? seriously?

i guess we do, so lets get into the doodoo Bill

Bill, i took the opportunity to do a little background checking on you,
it would appear you have been digging for information on batteries, their care/maintenance and use for the last 3 or 4 months with some earnest.... good for you!

however the type of questions and the info you seek is not the sort of thing that a so called expert or someone that has done a lot of work, had a lot of experience would be asking or searching for, and that is ok too... however

to put yourself up here and elsewhere as some sort of guru is crazy!

you go after Chris for using his batteries down to 50% state of charge over 5 days, when you have asserted that charging them slowly over a similar length of time is the only way to recharge a battery to with the goal being increased longevity of the battery.

Chris has it right when he notes that where in chemistry of any sorts does the chemical processes fixate on a 24hour earth based day?

this is very much like stating that God made the everything in 6 days and rested on the 7th!  who the hell are we to assume God adheres to a 24 hour day?

to assume such about God or battery chemistry is a very human centric viewpoint, one that is detrimental to doing proper analysis of most everything.

contrary to popular belief, we humans are not the center of the universe!  hard as that might be to grasp for someone such as yourself.

there is absolutely nothing stating that a battery cycle must be one day or 5 days, it could be anything we need it to be, up to the point that hard crystal formation of the sulfation takes place.

hard sulfation crystallization does not happen in 5 days, one can certainly discharge to any level he likes over that length of time, and suffer no long term loss of capacity provide he fully recharges on the 6th day

further it is my opinion that you could push that out to 9 days followed by a full charge on the 10th, however a more frequent equalization would be in order.

just because Crown battery states that any partial charging constitutes a cycle does not mean this is a carved in stone fact, because  we are not cycling during that recharge regime

Chris is powering his loads via other sources, wind/solar/generator and the batteries are asked to supply the deficit power over the 5 days, after which time on the 6th day the battery is fully recharged.  also along the way as power is available some of it is put into the battery bank over time, slowly replacing what had previously been taken during the previous 5 day cycle...  at least as i understand it.

i am at the point now of asking this

Bill what are your motives or interest here, on this forum?

is it to learn? is it to discuss theory? is it to teach others?

or is it something less desirable, like just being a troll or in other words a pain in the ass?

if you are here to learn, thats cool, everyone should be constantly learning no matter how smart they think they are.

if you are here to discuss theory, that too is ok with me, but somewhat trying for some on the forum.

if you are here to teach, that too is ok, provided you are teaching fact and not some half baked scheme based on anecdotal evidence that is not in keeping with even a middle school understanding of the scientific method.

if on the other hand you are here just to stir the pot, then in my opinion you have long overstayed your welcome. my vote would be to kick you to the curb and move on.

Bill you strike me as someone that is very new to this topic, someone that is so desirous of having stature, that you dive into the topic head first, do a bit of research and then think you are some sort of expert.

it was once said, and i am not sure by whom, that the more one learns the more one realizes just how much he doesn't know.  apparently you are so new to this process that you haven't arrived at this conclusion yet or you are so arrogant as to think that somehow this does not apply to you.

yes Bill this may come off as mean spirited when the reality is i am trying to be constructive with my criticism.  we all make mistakes, and we all can be forgiven provided we make some attempt to change our attitudes or practices.

you really need to change your approach, and back off a bit, and quit trying to bait folks into a pissing match.  most folks don't like this sort of behavior, and no one appreciates it.

so there you have it, my opinion, take it for what it is worth!
which is about what you are asked to pay for it.

bob g

[bob g]

back to the topic at hand

lets take a look at the idea that any opportunity or deficit charging constitutes a cycle theory as presented by one large battery manufacture.

their recommendation might be valid for their product (forklift battery), under the intended use (powering the forklift), and being recharged by the common charger, by unqualified and uncaring operators (for the most part) over the expected lifespan of their product.   however

take the lowly car SLI battery,( thin plate high output cheap battery) used to start and provide loads typical of a car.
there are many such batteries used for that purpose that get deficit charged, cycled over and over again, albeit lightly  and they do a reasonable good service for years at a very low relative cost.

a car used by momma to run the kids to school, pickup groceries, run a few errands might start and stop a dozen times a  day, only being partially recharged between stops,,, each of these opportunity recharges does not constitute a cycle.  it also may very well be true that the battery does not get fully recharged until the weekend where dad gets the car and drives the family over an hour to see grandma. even in such operation the battery can  still last several years, generally its life is not reduced markedly.

clearly we can't take the recommendation of one manufacture, a recommendation that applies to their product, used in a very different way than we might use it, and apply it across the board to all lead acid batteries used by all sorts of people in as many different ways, maintained in as many different ways, and applied to other manufactures batteries.   

every battery type will have specific needs, every application is different, everybody is different, every charging scheme is a bit different, etc. etc.

we just can't make one blanket, one size fits all, generalized assumption and refer to it as fact.

if we do there will certainly be those that are pissed off because they took that advice and for whatever reason it ended up shortening their batteries lifespan, just as likely there will be others that exceed that expected lifespan, maybe because they did it another way, or changed one bit in the chain of operation

in my opinion, there are no "one way is best" approach to batteries.

the best advice would be to use the manufactures suggested operating parameters, their suggested care and maintenance, their suggested charging etc.  and adapt our behavior to match those parameters, at least until such a time that one gets enough practical experience under his belt to understand the dynamics in place that are specific to his implementation of the batteries in question.

anyone that starts out taking someone else's anecdote based recommendation to size, build and use their batteries risks having a big problem, especially if that recommendation is significantly different that that of the manufacture.  you might get lucky, you might not?  its a roll of the dice, or a spin of the roulette wheel in my opinion. i don't know about anyone but myself, but i don't feel lucky when it comes to risking my lunch money.

this is precisely why i don't just jump on the "johnny come lately" bandwagon. i will however give it the benefit of the doubt and at least read up on what is asserted, and ask some questions.  it is also why i refrain from making personal recommendations that are not in keeping with those of the manufacture.

if i were to advise someone on the care and maintenance of a crown battery in a forklift  i would suggest not doing opportunity charging.

just like if i were to advise someone on offgrid use of a rolls/surrette battery, to use them over several days between 50 and 80% state of charge and then fully recharge them on the 7th or 10th day because the manufacture is ok with that regime with a few caveats of course.

this idea that i take a bit of info from here, a bit from there and formulate my own theory of operation, then start to push that as fact on the forum is just not right.

call it "cafeteria science" where you pick and choose what you want to include in your theory and then spout off about it being a carved in stone "fact".

this is one reason why we have 37 thousand denominations in the christian church worldwide! same mechanism in place, same human nature thing happening.

we don't like what the law states, so we rewrite it to suit our fancy, picking and choosing bits and pieces to include or exclude. by the time it is done, there is no truth left in the assertion in many cases.

this whole battery thing is no different!

its just a multivariable  equation, where we are well served to plug in variables supplied by the manufacture rather than opinions of somebody on a forum. then later if we like we can tweak one variable at at time to determine a cause and effect relationship to tune our system to attain our specific goals.

bob g

[Frank S]

Just a short hijack:  the paradoxical vernacular " the more you learn, the more you realize how little you know". This amazing piece of literary genius has been attributed to Socrates,or by Plato. Unsubstantiated of course as to which should receive  accreditation,  the teacher or the student.

now back to our regularly scheduled program if you desire

[ChrisOlson]

lets take a look at the idea that any opportunity or deficit charging constitutes a cycle theory as presented by one large battery manufacture.

I've run long, several-day discharge cycles on my battery bank for years.  I would say that anybody that thinks you can live off-grid without doing so is not in touch with reality.  Our bank can easily go for a week before being fully charged and it don't affect it's long term capacity at all.  We have a little meter on the kitchen wall that keeps track of things for us:

[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ]

The light on the left is green, that means the bank has gone thru a complete charge in the last week.  If that light turns yellow it's been 1 -2 weeks since the bank got a full charge.  If it turns red it means the bank hasn't been fully charged for more than 2 weeks.

If that light turns yellow (which don't happen very often) we know the generator is going to be starting shortly to "fix" the problem.
--
Chris

[ChrisOlson]

just like if i were to advise someone on offgrid use of a rolls/surrette battery, to use them over several days between 50 and 80% state of charge and then fully recharge them on the 7th or 10th day because the manufacture is ok with that regime with a few caveats of course.

Bob, I'd like to point out that Surrette is completely fine with the above, and it actually improves your system efficiency.  It takes a lot of power to charge batteries from 80% SOC to 100% that you don't get back out for the inverters to use.

Rolls told me that as long as you fully charge those batteries often enough to prevent hard sulfation on the plates and re-mix the electrolyte, the batteries are happy.  Since we first put our new bank in, I've added more RE capacity to charge them more often.  But they still load test with the same specs as new right now, and I'll be sure to keep folks posted on that as our bank ages.  If we have a battery that goes south you guys will be the first to know because I won't be happy about it   

Volvo Farmer on this forum had a couple Rolls batteries (S-460.s?) that went bad before their time for no apparent reason.  So it can happen.  He got new Trojans, and I think if I had it to do over again I would get Trojan's too, because Trojan makes a big 6-cell battery that has the amp output capacity that would be suitable for our system.  Time will tell, and that's all we can do is relate our experiences with what we got.
--
Chris

[BillBlake]

'Use the batteries for 5 days but get 4 cycle days Free because we deficit charged
the badboys each day but the fifth day '.

It's not a deficit charge.  It's a long, slow continuous discharge with loads being offset by incoming RE power.  But the incoming does not meet loads long term, so the batteries undergo a five day long (or whatever) discharge down to 50% (or whatever).

I don't know who thought up that off-grid deep-cycle batteries have to be fully charged every single day.  They don't.  Batteries don't give a flyin' crap about one complete revolution of the earth like people do.  Every time a battery is discharged and fully recharged, that's a cycle.  It don't matter if that cycle is one Earth Day long, or five Earth Days as long as it's brought back to full charge on a frequent enough basis to prevent sulfation problems. <snip-ith>
--
Chris

<Snip from The Lost Bigtime Battery Studies >

Also, the finish-charge
efficiency can be very low at less than 50%.

Finish-charging is assumed to be accomplished
by the engine generator since it requires
dispatchable power.

The interval between
finish-charges can be as short as one cycle or
in excess of 20-cycles, depending on system
and battery requirements.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Note: This was BOB. (Before Old Bill) 

With AOL. (After Old Bill) we 'Aquarius Power' the dispatchable power for the finish charge

how WE Likes it with a completely autonomous Power Block.

<Snip from The Lost Bigtime Battery Studies>

(Sorry no Link since the Studies are Lost AGAIN.)

Guess old Bill will control that 'Knowledge Vault' now,

as part of his '90 Day Wonder' training.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
<Snip>

The PV Hybrid Battery Test Procedure
attempts to answer the following questions:
(1) How often does the battery need a
finish-charge to maintain capacity?

(2) What charge parameters are needed to
maintain battery capacity in a PV hybrid?
The test procedure includes the following
system and battery parameters:

(1) bulk-charge termination voltage,
(2) finish-charge regulation voltage (in the
tests in this report, 1 and 2 are the same),
(3) charge and discharge rate,
(4) discharge termination voltage,
(5) interval between finish-charges, and
(6) finish-charge duration.

Using this information, the number of deficit
and finish-charge intervals required to obtain
battery capacity trends was established.

A
deficit charge is used in this report to mean a
charge that does not bring the battery back to
the same state of charge at which it began the
previous discharge.

For example, if 50 amp-hours are discharged and 45 are recharged,
then that is a deficit charge.

In addition, if 50 amphours are discharged and 55 are recharged, that is probably also a
deficit charge because the battery inefficiency at high states of charge is well below 100%.

It is important to understand that if system charge and discharge rates or system parameters
deviate significantly from the chosen rates and parameters, then the test results may also
change. For example, the PV hybrid may be operated more like a stand-alone PV system than
like a hybrid. The stand-alone PV system will cycle the battery to a much shallower depth of
discharge every day and recharge every day based on available solar resource.

The PV hybrid system will usually discharge the batteries to a much deeper
depth of discharge and probably won't recharge the battery to a
high state of charge every day.

In the case of the stand-alone system the effect of shallow daily cycles between 10 to 20%
depth of discharge (DOD) every day
would minimize the need for the higher regulation voltage because the shallow cycling and daily
recharge results in less electrolyte stratification and degradation to the battery.

In addition to the effects of the daily depth of discharge, the age of the battery will also greatly
impact the recharge characteristics. As the battery ages there may be a significant increase in
gassing current affecting battery efficiency, maintenance, and electrolyte stratification.

Therefore, regulation voltage or finish-charge time may need to be adjusted to compensate for
the aging battery. These adjustments can include the regulation voltage, finish-charge time, and
finish-charge interval.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So say-ith The Legendary Sandia National Labs.

'Your Tax Dollar giving you a straight story (and some fun) without all the me, me, me. 

Bill Blake

[ChrisOlson]

Note: This was BOB. (Before Old Bill) 

BOB, Bill - whatever.

Once again, when we get several bad days in a row there is no deficit charge.  It's a continuous discharge for several days.  Incoming RE offsets some of the power that has to come from batteries, but the bank still has to deliver what the RE can't on those bad days.  This can go on for several days until we either get a good day and catch everything back up, or the <gasp> generator starts and takes care of the problem - automatically.  All I have to do is look at the gauges now and then to see what the status is.

How about showing us your awesome system with 15 year old batteries in it that are still as good as new?  Otherwise my interest in this thread is starting to wane because you're not telling anybody anything that they don't already know.
--
Chris

[BillBlake]

Note: This was BOB. (Before Old Bill) 

BOB, Bill - whatever.

Once again, when we get several bad days in a row there is no deficit charge.  It's a continuous discharge for several days.  Incoming RE offsets some of the power that has to come from batteries, but the bank still has to deliver what the RE can't on those bad days.  This can go on for several days until we either get a good day and catch everything back up, or the <gasp> generator starts and takes care of the problem - automatically.  All I have to do is look at the gauges now and then to see what the status is.

How about showing us your awesome system with 15 year old batteries in it that are still as good as new?  Otherwise my interest in this thread is starting to wane because you're not telling anybody anything that they don't already know.
--
Chris

Chris, I'm just passing on information from outfits like GB Industrial Batteries and Chargers,
Rolls / Surrette, Sandia National Labs, etc.

It's what they say that you need to deal with. Age may temper your style a tad.
A lot of guys
learn to control their emotions better in the swingin twilight years.

Your posts are always leading to confrontation lately like your the 'Big Professor' now and will
punish me with losing interest.

When it dies - it dies - it's not your thread, bud.

If your nice I will make up a fun post called

"The Christmas $80,000 Battery Bank Charging Story"

where a son is threatened to be "backhanded across da room" by his dad

over a misunderstanding of 'The ChrisOlson Charging Doctrine'

where you buy one day but get 4 days for Free.

You simply rearrange

the Sandia Language and terminology to turn any old sorry

battery bank into a 5 to 1 Super Star.

Don't EVEN question this brilliance or there is going to be big trouble rather than

open discussion. You will be intimidated no matter what you did for a living for 50 years.

Keeping it fun, 

Bill Blake

[ChrisOlson]

You simply rearrange

the Sandia Language and terminology to turn any old sorry

battery bank into a 5 to 1 Super Star.

This thread is going to get locked too before long.  I just pass on my experience with my system.  My original bank lasted from June 2004 to April 2011 without ever replacing a single battery in it, being cycled as I describe on a regular basis.

My experience is real-world, not laboratory.
--
Chris

[Bruce S]

I hate to say it but Chris , you got it right .
I had hoped this would continue to be civil but it's going towards the flamewars way too fast.
Time to lock and start a-new.
Sorry all;
Bruce S

[ghurd]

Maybe ghurd is overstepping his boundries...

clearly we can't take the recommendation of one manufacture, a recommendation that applies to their product, used in a very different way than we might use it, and apply it across the board to all lead acid batteries used by all sorts of people in as many different ways, maintained in as many different ways, and applied to other manufactures batteries.   

every battery type will have specific needs, every application is different, everybody is different, every charging scheme is a bit different, etc. etc.

we just can't make one blanket, one size fits all, generalized assumption and refer to it as fact.

The solder shop (12V, all solar) is using 6V golf cart batteries (mostly Sam's, pair of Trojans).  Most people claim 2~3~4 years tops?
They spend a straight month or 2 below 12.3V (per pair).  Yes, that is VERY bad.
And they spend 7~8~9 months never being below about 12.5V.
Still, at least 1 pair is over a decade old.  Next pair or 2 are near that.
They are all paralleled.  New.  Old.  Big.  Small.

I just do not like how they rate "12V Deep Cycle" boat batteries.
My/our experience is a parallel bank of 4 x ~115AH will not supply the same WH as a pair or 2 of 210AH-class 6V golf cart batteries, and they fail so much faster they are not worth considering for a system above about 40W of charge or use.  For us, 3 or 4 ~110AH class '12V boat batteries' were considered cheaper than gas for a gennie.  Now we consider them to expensive per WH (in the system and conditions they are used in) to be worth considering.

G-

[JW]

Any Gm or Admin can post on a locked topic... they can also unlock it.

Technically there are no boundries

Dont ask me how im doing this- its top secret

Best

JW