In Hurricane bullseye. Need help with genny connect to panel

[Crispy]

I purchased a small portable Generac to keep my well and refrigeration going  during the inevitable power outage due to hit our area.

I also got a Reliant manual power transfer box that wires into my breaker panel that allows switching back and forth between grid and genny without the danger of feeding back into the grid.

Genny has 2 standard 120 outlets and a 120/240 outlet with 4 prongs. I got 50 ft of 10AWG cable for the 120/240 to connect to the switch box. Everything is fine until I connect this cable to the switch box at which point the breaker on the genny trips.

In my breaker panel, the neutral and ground are bonded. I have read that most portable gennys today also have neutral and ground bonded in the genny head and that having them bonded at both ends causes a dual path for neutral voltage return and trips the breakers.

If that's the case, why would a company sell a 30 amp switchbox knowing all gennys of that size will not work with their product?

It's too late to go out and purchase anything that may fix this situation (neutral switchbox??), so my question is once the power goes out, if I isolated all the neutrals on the branch circuits I have connected to the switch box ( remove them from the buss bar ) and connect them to the neutral wire from the genny and leave the green ground wire connected to the buss bar in the breaker panel, will that solve the problem and more important, will it be safe ?

I have heard of some who removed the neutral to ground jumper on the genny, but some say that is unsafe, so I don't know.......

I know just about enough about electricity to be dangerous. To prove that point....... Why does my well only have 2 hot wires and a ground, but no neutral? I could probably figure this out if I understood how the whole neutral thing works.

I'll be hunkered down and waiting for any advice

Thanks,
Crispy

[ChrisOlson]

Oh boy - what a can of worms.

Firstly, 240 volt appliances and motors do not need a neutral wire because the load is line to line.  The neutral is the center tap of the transformer or generator winding, and it is only used for dual voltage systems (120/240 split phase).

Do NOT change any of the wiring in your home.  It is wired to code (hopefully) and neutral should be bonded to ground at the service entrance.  That is the only neutral/ground bond allowed in the system, including at the generator.  The generator should have a floating neutral.  To check to see if it has a floating neutral measure the resistance with an ohm meter between a neutral blade in a 120 volt outlet (the neutral is the wider of the two blade holes).  There should not be continuity to the ground pin hole (or the generator frame).

This is one reason why portable generators should NOT be used for home standby power - OHSA regulations require them to have a bonded neutral with GFCI protection on 120 volt outlets.  If you do have a generator with a bonded neutral, then it will either have to be defeated (refer to the manufacturer's wiring diagram to determine where to disconnect it), or use transfer gear with a switched neutral.

It's not Reliant's fault - it's your fault for buying a portable generator to do the job of a stationary standby unit.

Now that's covered, having two neutral/ground bonds only causes current to flow in the ground, and it may cause GFCI outlets to trip.  But it will not cause the main breaker to trip on the generator.  You have something hooked up wrong that is dead shorting it if it's the main breaker that's tripping on the gen.  Review all your wiring to find the fault.

If it's the GFCI that's tripping on the gen, then it's the dual neutral/ground bond issue and the GFCI is seeing different current in the hot vs the neutral, and tripping it.  But that would only be on a 120 volt outlet, and I assume you are plugging into 240.

The third thing that will trip it is overload.  Do you accidentally have a large current draw device on when you do the transfer?  Remember that a small generator will not power much.  And also remember that on 240 you can overload one leg and easily trip the breaker, while that won't happen on grid power.  If you have a 5 kW rated generator, it's actual output will be about 4.1 kVA and it will only maintain that for about an hour before the generator windings get hot and the voltage drops below 220.  It will maintain 2.5 kVA continuous and maintain proper voltage and frequency.  But at 2.5 kVA you only have 5 amps available on each 120 volt leg, and at the full rated 5 kW you only have 10 amps available on each 120 volt leg for initial starting of motors like in your 'fridge.

Standby generators are only rated to run at 50% load continuous.  Portables are usually worse than that and some of them will only maintain 30% load continuous.  More expensive portables (like Honda) have a 1.0 Power Factor and will develop full rated output power continuous.  Generac portables (GP-series) are one of the cheap Chinese ones with a very poor Power Factor so it takes twice the size in a GP-series Generac of what it takes with a Honda EM-X series to run the same load.

When it comes to generators, you get what you pay for.  And very likely you bought a generator that's way too small for the job.
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Chris

[Crispy]

Chris,

I will check with the ohm meter shortly.

I know it's a small gen. All I want to do is power the well @ 240 single phase 8.3 amps according to the control box and my refrigerator @ 120v  5 amps.

The well would run infrequently for only a few minutes at a time and the fridge for maybe 20 minutes at a time.

The switchbox was for convenience mainly so I wouldn't have extension cords all over the place and be able to switch circuits on and off as necessary so as not to overload the gen.

I have checked my wiring. All wire colors match from the gen to switch box, and all circuits now switched to "line" for grid power (no magic smoke)

Now, if the ohm meter test confirms neutral bonded to ground, can I safely hard wire the 2 hot wires to the spst fuse box for the well ( making sure the grid connection at the breaker panel is disconnected) ?  Btw, the guy that built the house did some really shady stuff with the wiring. That's why there is a fused switch box for the well ( old glass screw in fuses at that) in addition to the breaker panel.

If I can safely connect those 2 hots to the fuse box, do I ignore the neutral and connect the ground wire, also isolating the ground from the grid? There is a ground stud on the gen panel. I could connect that to an unused ground rod from a now disconnected tele land line.

When I say isolate from the grid, I mean disconnecting the wires at the old glass fuse switch box that run to the breaker panel and replace with direct wiring from the 10awg 4 conductor cable from the 120/240 outlet.

Floating neutral = neutral and ground not bonded, correct? Is that safe? I don't want to become a storm statistic due to stupidity.

I would use the 120 outlets and extension cords ( 50 ft 12AWG ) for the fridge only and the 120/240 outlet for the well only, hard wired to well switch box with all wires to the grid removed from said switch box.

Your thoughts? and thank you for your input.

Crispy

[ChrisOlson]

I would assume you put some lighting circuits on the transfer switch as well, and it would be nice to have those working instead of being in the dark.  If worse comes to worse, then hard wire it just to get your stuff working.  But the best is to verify that neutral/ground bond first and go from there.

Again, that neutral ground bond at the gen won't trip the breaker - only GFCI because it puts the ground in parallel with the neutral wire by connecting them together at two places (service entrance and genset).  I'm thinking you have another issue with the breaker tripping on the gen.  While the FLA on your well might be 8.3 amps, the surge amps is probably 50 to start the motor.  Is your generator capable of that?  With all the breakers in the transfer gear still on "line" can you connect the generator and flip one breaker at a time to see which one pops it?

I don't know how much time you have to get this working before you get hit there.  I will PM you my cell phone number to call me direct if you can't get it working.  It will be much easier to provide emergency help over the phone than on the forum.
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Chris

[Crispy]

I was lazy and checked across the neutral and ground terminals on the plug coming from the gen. I read 3 ohms, so looks like they are bonded at the gen.

[ChrisOlson]

That's common on OSHA-approved portable generators.  You'll have to either replace the transfer gear with one with a switched neutral - or hardwire your critical circuits to the gen with cords, or take the panel off the side of the gen and trace down where they got the gen neutral bonded to the ground.

OSHA-approved generators have a bonded neutral and floating ground.  RV generators have a floating neutral and floating ground, and that's what you want for a standby unit for your home too.
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Chris

[OperaHouse]

I still think you did something wrong.  If it is bonded to neutral, use the voltmeter with the generator running to verify what you think is neutral is actually neutral.  I assume it trips just connecting it to the transfer box without the transfer even switched.  The real neutral will be the pin with zero volts to ground.  As said before, bonding the neutral may not be code but it won't trip the breaker.  If you didn't make a mistake maybe the factory did.  I was wiring up a three phase robot and found one of the phases wired directly to ground.

[ChrisOlson]

After talking to Crispy on the phone I have a better idea of his setup.  It points to something wrong in the transfer switch.  One other thing to try, to verify you don't have a backfeed problem, is to switch off the utility Main and all the breakers in the panel, and plug the generator in to see if it trips.  If somebody wired the transfer breakers wrong in the switch, you could be trying to backfeed the utility transformer, causing the breaker trip.  If it holds with everything in the Main panel turned off, then the transfer switch wiring will have to be investigated.

His generator (GP3250) has a bonded neutral.  But that won't cause the issue at hand.  Just because that Reliant transfer panel is factory wired, doesn't mean the factory wired it correctly.

Also, being you hard wired the gen cord into the recessed plug, verify that you didn't reverse a neutral and hot, or ground and hot, by accident.
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Chris

[Crispy]

Makes sense. If I disconnect the 4 wires in the switch box that connect to the cable going to the gen and detect voltage on any while all the switches are set to "line" that would also indicate an improper feedback, correct? Or I could just probe the terminals in the recessed plug at my junction box where I plug in the gen cable. If that checks ok and your suggestion to turn all breakers off and run the gen does not trip the gen breaker, then it's time to go snooping deeper inside the switch box.

[Crispy]

Here's the inside of the switch box. Looks good to me.......I think 

[Crispy]

The red and black  (hot) are from the gen. Box grounded with green wire and goes into service panel along with the white neutral, both being bonded to the neutral/ground buss

[ChrisOlson]

Everything looks good in the diagram.  That's how those Reliant panels are wired with the rocker switches to switch the loads, and the individual breakers.  I guess I'd verify that there is no backfeed, just in case there's something wrong with a switch in there.

If it's not that, then the feed cable from the gen is seeing a short between a hot and neutral and tripping the breaker.  You told me all the transfer (gen) breakers were off when you plugged it in and it tripped.  So either the utility neutral/ground is backfeeding (due to improper grounding at the service panel), or there's a short someplace.

With no load on the unit (every breaker possible turned off on the transfer and utility panel), the only connection the generator has to the utility (or any possible load) is that neutral and ground wire.  And that should not cause a trip on the gen breaker unless there's power from the utility neutral or ground being backfed to the generator somehow.  You may discover a problem with your house wiring you never even knew you had.
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Chris

[OperaHouse]

I think it ia at the generator end.  At your transfer switch disconnect your red and black.  Then connect just white and green. Bet the generator still trips.   Either your white or green wire has generator hot power on it.  I know you said you checked it but it is the natural tendency of people to believe they did things right.

[Crispy]

Ok, getting somewhere now

Started testing continuity between the recessed plug the gen cord plugs into and the other end at the switch box by connecting a length of 14 ga to reach from one end of the run to the other, to make sure all my colors match.

I had all the wire nuts off the connections in the switch box so all wires at both ends are free and not connected to anything. I put my ohm meter between the black wire in the 10/3 which is connected to NOTHING and white neutral going to the service panel neutral buss and got a reading. I get infinity between the red wire and the neutral.

WTF   The wires at one end are still connected to the female socket that the gen plug mates with. I am at a loss as to how a wire that is connected to nothing can read continuity on the service panel neutral buss. The gen cable plug is not connected to this at the time. I have 4 wires floating in space connected to nothing. One shows continuity to service panel neutral. How can that possibly happen?

[Crispy]

Bare copper ground is still connected to service panel buss, so I must have nicked the black wire at one end and it's shorting to the bare ground wire.

[Crispy]

Stupid is as stupid does    It appears I manhandled one of the strain reliefs and crushed the cable through the outer insulation and just enough of the insulation on the black wire to make the faintest contact with the strain relief resulting in a short circuit. Sometimes I think I am my own worst enemy 

[ChrisOlson]

Excellent!  You should be up and running shortly.  Have a safe hurricane, ok?   

One thing you'll like about that little GP3250, that we always liked about ours, is that you have to poke a hole in the bottom of the fuel tank to get that little 196cc engine to use any fuel.   
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Chris

[Crispy]

Up and running and just in the nick of time. Well pump kicks on no problem and draws 1000 watts per leg.

Heading out now before the worst arrives to poke that hole in the tank   

Thanks for all the help Chris

Crispy

[ChrisOlson]

Let us know how that hurricane goes.  The media only tends to show the dramatic stuff.
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Chris

[Crispy]

Well I had stronger winds during a noreaster in Dec 1992, up to hurricane force, but the trajectory was across open fields. This time the wind came across the hill putting me on the leeward side protected by several square miles of trees. At ground level I don't think I saw much over 45-50 mph but it sure was roaring at tree top level. Never did lose power which is amazing given how soggy the ground is from over 5 inches of rain and the center passing by only 30 miles to my South.

Last night at the height of the storm, a guy about 45 minutes north of me decided to step out on his porch to experience natures fury firsthand. Sadly, a 60 ft tree fell on him and he was killed.

Normally I would be disappointed I didn't get to sit here smugly in comfort with my new backup system keeping critical things running, but the devastation from our favorite beach in Ocean City MD up to NYC, Long Island and CT gives me pause to be thankful instead.

My cousin lives on Long Island. I texted him yesterday to see how he and his family were doing. I got no reply and have not heard from him yet .

[ChrisOlson]

Last night at the height of the storm, a guy about 45 minutes north of me decided to step out on his porch to experience natures fury firsthand. Sadly, a 60 ft tree fell on him and he was killed.

I wonder how long it will be before they start requiring engineering stamps on trees and a certification to make sure the tree is installed right and is structurally sound?  It only seems like a natural thing to do, since falling trees cause way more property damage, personal injury and death each year than wind turbines do.

Same thing with wild fires and hurricanes and stuff like that.  Mother Nature seems to get away with anything without being regulated by the government.  She can set a wild fire and don't need a burning permit.  She can whip up a hurricane or tornado and cause more damage than terrorists knocking down the Twin Towers and the President of the United States don't even retaliate with military force or nukes or anything.  What a wimp.  I mean, the government controls everything.  Right?  So why don't people start clamoring for the government to pass laws to control Mother Nature and put her in her place?

Glad to hear your hurricane went well, Crispy.
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Chris

[Frank S]

Careful Chris O we don't want the guberment to get any more stupid ideas than it already has.
 the problem now a days is the media has nothing worthwhile to report on so things have to be overbown to the point that the scared masses get in a panic.
 Yes it is always good to warn of the possibility of a storm but to say tht a 10 or even 30 ft storm surge is a major catastrophe because a couple of subway tunnels got some water in them and a few trees blew down or the power went out.
 Well a 100 year old electrical grid in a backwater village like NYC needs a little storm surge once on a while to wash the stink out of the place.
 I saw  20 ft wall of water take out a 500 boat marina from the result of a freakish 100 MPH straight-line wind on a small 27,000 acre lake the water level of the lake at the time was 10 ft below normal and the water took out 600 ft of pylon secured seawall as if it was a child's note book being  held out the window of their mom's car going 50 mph
 If the media wants to see what a storm surge can do let them Visit you and you take them out to that big lake near you there they can see some real storm surges and it don't take a hyped up hurricane

[Crispy]

 Yes it is always good to warn of the possibility of a storm but to say that a 10 or even 30 ft storm surge is a major catastrophe because a couple of subway tunnels got some water in them and a few trees blew down or the power went out.
 

Frank,  Go on Facebook and pull up Tri-State Weather. You will see pictures of the devastation along the coast that stretches over 300+ miles and flood and wind damage inland also, so it was a major catastrophe. A home in Queens NY caught fire from a downed power line. The fire company could not reach them due to the flooding, so in the end, almost 100 homes burnt to the ground.

I agree, the media hypes stuff to get ratings these days so they have to fight the chicken little sky is falling attitude the public has after all the false alarms. Then you have the idiots at the National Hurricane Center that refused to issue Hurricane Warnings on a technicality that the actual structure of the storm would according to their crystal ball no longer be a warm core tropical system by the time it made landfall.

Amazing that just before landfall they declared it "sub" tropical to save face even when the data proves otherwise. That confused a lot of people and caused some to decide not to evacuate. Nevertheless, sustained winds over 75 mph with gusts to 100 funneled into a 90 degree coastline in one of the most densely populated areas of the country IS a catastrophe and there is far more than a few tunnels flooded and trees blown down to prove it.

For once the media got it right. http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10152254064025122&set=a.261480430121.304779.127583470121&type=1&relevant_count=1&ref=nf

[Frank S]

I guess the main thing is did you get to use your generator?
 as far as the houses burning down a 17 year old kid tosses a burning cigarette out  window in CA and 50,000 acres of land catches on fire burning every house i its wake or lightening strikes a tree in Co and the fires burn for months burning almost every house in the area'
 People who build a shack out of wood are waiting to be burned down  even if it cost $ 30 Million with brick cladding it is still nothing more than a straw shack underneath

[ChrisOlson]

Frank,  Go on Facebook and pull up Tri-State Weather. You will see pictures of the devastation along the coast that stretches over 300+ miles and flood and wind damage inland also, so it was a major catastrophe.

Crispy, I know it was bad for the people that live there.  My post was sort of tongue in cheek due to the government always trying to control every aspect of people's lives, even when it comes to natural disasters - like they always got control.  Nobody has control.  When Mother Nature strikes, despite man's attitude of self-importance and control, all he can do is run and hide.
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Chris

[Crispy]

Chris,

No worries. I totally got the tongue in cheek thing. It stinks that the government sticks their nose in every aspect of our lives.

Thanks again for the help. I was exhausted from lack of sleep so I wasn't thinking the problem through to it's logical conclusion. You gave me enough information to steer me in the right direction to troubleshoot it and find the problem.

btw, the wilderness retreat I was telling you about is on Lake Owen near Cable WI. Are you near there? I don't recall seeing any massive DIY windmills on the drive up there 

Crispy

[ChrisOlson]

btw, the wilderness retreat I was telling you about is on Lake Owen near Cable WI. Are you near there? I don't recall seeing any massive DIY windmills on the drive up there 

You have to look about 30 miles to your left from there to see our turbines.  Going up 53 did you see the Jacobs 23-10 just north of Spooner Lake?  There's a Jake 31-20 just north of Cable too, on a 160 foot tower.


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Chris