Servo Motor Brake Removal

[Mastiffman]

I was wondering if anyone Knew how or had a Link to Instructions on how to disengauge the Brake for removal on a Kawasaki Servo motor (Fanuc style)?

 I just picked this one up from an Auction for $72 including shipping. The Motor is in Good used condition. May make a Decent Mill in the future...

 Here is a Photo of the unit with the Brake on the back.

 Thanks!



 Front end.

[birdhouse]

do you have the motor in hand?  some servos don't have brakes built in.  my recent fanuc purchase didn't have a brake installed. 

the round portion on the back is likely not the brake, but the encoder.  not a needed portion for turbine use, but good to keep installed for a good weather seal.  not sure what that trapazoidal protrusion is though...  i guess it could be the brake??

if it does have a brake, its most likely near the back of the motor.  i'd start by removing the four bolts on the front of the motor, and all on the back.  then pick a seam in the casing and start prying with anything you can find.  take caution though, there may be windings that you don't want to scratch (short!) behind the seam.  worst case scenario, you'll have to pry until you unseat a press fit main bearing to fully crack the case. 

good luck!  patience is key!

adam

[Mastiffman]

Yeppers!

 This is the motor that I just received today.

 I started pulling the "cap" off of the back as this is where the smaller alternate leads went. I cannot turn the Shaft and I'm assuming this is why.

 Is there a way to send voltage to the Brake and Unlock it? If so I wonder how much voltage it would need to do so...? Maybe this would allow me to pull this thing off the back and get a reading of Voltage...

 I'd rather keep the unit intack and just pop off the Brake if possible.

First Opened:


Front Shaft with Bearings (May Use one or both for the Tower)


Assuming the brake Compartment. But with cap off and all four screws removed it can be easily twisted but not pried...

[birdhouse]

yea, that back round case is the encoder. 

what's inside the trapazoid shaped case?  that's the one that confuses me. 

trust me, it's easier to remove the brake than try to control it (unless you're electric smart, not me!)

adam

[Mastiffman]

OKay, that's what I thought when I pulled it off...

 it's funny that you ask becasue I wondered the same thing...

 It's the Water Tight Housing for the Control Wires!



 Wanted to see if there was  clue on my task beneith this plate, but nothing.



Looks nice in there though...



 Here are the Wires that I'll eventually be working with. Notice the little white and yellow ones...? Could these be for the Brake or poosibly an RPM Sensor of some kind?

 

 Anyway, Kawasaki Rep stated that this motor was Capaable to Accept both AC and DC power? Didn't realize that was possible...

 Had to stop for the night as the kids were in Bed and it's getting late anyhow.

 Drew

 Hopefully More tomorrow...

 Wasn't the Brake for your Servo motor on the inside of the housing?

[Mastiffman]

yea, that back round case is the encoder. 

what's inside the trapazoid shaped case?  that's the one that confuses me. 

trust me, it's easier to remove the brake than try to control it (unless you're electric smart, not me!)

adam

 Okay, With a little bit of examination, I managed to pull off the Control Wire Casing and removed all 4 Brake Housing Bolts. I removed the Wires from the Plug and pulled off the Brake which was Huge! Defintely Lightened up the Motor a bit. I weighed the motor befofre removing anything last night and it was around 68lbs. I also weighed the Decoder, Brake and Backplate after removing and that was 16lbs. So subtract about 2lbs for the backplate as I will reinstalll that and I will end up removing the large Gear/ Hub/ Bearing Assembly which is probably another 3lbs. So I'm probably looking at around a 51-52lbs unit when done.

 Here are the brake and blackplate removed sitting by the Servo itself... This brake looksvery large to some others that I've seen.



 There were originally 4 Main wires to the Motor but one was green and was the Ground. The last 3 here (R,Blk,Wh) have 2 wires each running off of them. I did manage to perform a quick voltage test and the motor doesn't register Any DC voltage at all. So not sure why the Kawaski Rep stated this?

 Anyway, Connected the Black and Red (Also got the Same results from the Black and White Connected) leads to my Multimeter with a quick twist of the shaft with the help of Large hex Wrench the voltage shot up to around 8 volts. So this thing defintely produces decent AC Volts. And with the same method but a slow continuously spinning the shaft, I got a reading of around 1.75-2.0 amps...

 I will need to understand how this wiring will yeild the most output so any advice is appreciated. I do know that Rectifiers for this type of AC to DC setup will have 3 Input Leads for the AC and 2 Output leads for DC power. So it may very well be that it's Just a Common lead with two Hot Leads? Probably the only thing that matters is that the Common lead is Connected accordingly?
 
 


One Last thing. Any Idea of how these Brakes are Setup? Should I be Very Precautious about Springs or levers Flaying out as I try and Remove it from the Backplate?

[gww]

mastiffman
I really can't help much with your questions but I am glad to see you haven't given up.  Your 8 volts ac will be 11 volts dc after you rectify it.  aprox what rpm were you spinning it to get that? Try turning it at 60 rpms and see what you get.  You need a referance to decide your blades.  I am learning as you go.
Thanks
gww

[Mary B]

Brake is probably solenoid actuated by applying power wold be my guess, I have never taken one like that apart.

[birdhouse]

the brakes in those are generally in the locked position when the motor doesn't have power.  typically, it's just a bunch of springs pushing on a plate.  the springs shouldn't fly out though as you separate the brake casing. 

Connected the Black and Red (Also got the Same results from the Black and White Connected)

this makes it sound like you found the three phases of the motor (white, black and red).  rectify each wires output, and you should be off to the races! 

have you seen these jobbies?  pretty reasonable! 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/80-AMP-3-THREE-PHASE-RECTIFIER-WIND-TURBINE-GENERATOR-/250728271145?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3a6091cd29

adam

[Mastiffman]

mastiffman
I really can't help much with your questions but I am glad to see you haven't given up.  Your 8 volts ac will be 11 volts dc after you rectify it.  aprox what rpm were you spinning it to get that? Try turning it at 60 rpms and see what you get.  You need a referance to decide your blades.  I am learning as you go.
Thanks
gww

 It really was just a quick twist of the Shaft. The kawasaki rep stated that this was 5000v @ 3000rpm...

 I just hooked my Ryobi Corded Drill up to it that has 2 Speeds.

1. Speed 1 = 1000rpm max
2. Speed 2 = 3000rpm max

 I used only one set of leads. Red and Black

 Rpm to Voltage results were as follows.

1. Speed 1 = 63Vac max
2. Speed 2 = 154Vac max

1. Speed 1 = 11.59 amps
2. Speed 2 = 27.46 amps

 So some simple math should tell us that Speed 1 is yeilding 15.87rpms/ Volt and Speed 2 is yielding 19.48 rpms/ Volt.

 But I can tell you that definitely on Speed 2, the drill's pitch at full power wasn't producing 3000rpms... If not also Speed 1. So those number above are most likely higher than they really should be.

 I was estimating (per the reps numbers) of this thing being 6rpms / Volt... Which is kind of lower thanone would want for a turbine to reach good torque speeds with a decent load on it. So this is actually good news!

 Once Again this was only using the Red and Black leads.

  @ Mary Alana, Was Able to remove the Brake Fro the back access Cover that it was attached to. It was in the Locked State and Only stopped the Armature by the use of a Gear lock.

  @ Birdhouse, Nice! Thanks for the Link. W80 Amps should be enough. If it's enough for yours then it will be enough for mine I assume...

the brakes in those are generally in the locked position when the motor doesn't have power.  typically, it's just a bunch of springs pushing on a plate.  the springs shouldn't fly out though as you separate the brake casing. 




 

[birdhouse]

i think i use a 150A version out of china, but wasn't sure how long you were willing to wait on shipping, so i linked an american shipped item (though probably made in china). 

just type in "three phase rectifier" into flea bay and shop away!

those amps sound super high...  IE: not clamped into a battery bank.  there's a BIG difference!  kinda like redelco sellers claiming open volts and shorted amps. 

re-do the experiment with a three phase rect. into a 24v bank (assuming that's the design goal) and there isn't a ryobi drill manufactured that will get you over 10A into the bank...  this will give you much more real world conditions.  the way to really bench test a motor! 

you'll know you're doing it right when you have to really shoulder the drill in with both hands, and then the motor starts flopping around on the bench...   

sounds like a good find though!  keep at it, and others (more knowledgable than me) might be able to suggest prop sizes tsr ect. 

adam
 

[Mastiffman]

i think i use a 150A version out of china, but wasn't sure how long you were willing to wait on shipping, so i linked an american shipped item (though probably made in china). 

just type in "three phase rectifier" into flea bay and shop away!

those amps sound super high...  IE: not clamped into a battery bank.  there's a BIG difference!  kinda like redelco sellers claiming open volts and shorted amps. 

re-do the experiment with a three phase rect. into a 24v bank (assuming that's the design goal) and there isn't a ryobi drill manufactured that will get you over 10A into the bank...  this will give you much more real world conditions.  the way to really bench test a motor! 

you'll know you're doing it right when you have to really shoulder the drill in with both hands, and then the motor starts flopping around on the bench...   

sounds like a good find though!  keep at it, and others (more knowledgable than me) might be able to suggest prop sizes tsr ect. 

adam
 

 How Long Was Shipping on that 150amp? Maybe I'll do an 80 amp for now...

 Yes there is a BIG Diff! Even with a measily ole 12amp Treadmil motor I had to put some leverage on my grip when attached to a 12v bank. Yes, I plan on running 24 eventually but with the Right Motor. I was hoping that this would be lower rpms/ volt just for that reason. Still the numbers aren't that bad but I don't want a noisey high rpm trubine and I'm sure my neighbors don't either...

 not sure if this makes a Differnce but the Ryobi Corded 2 Speed 1/2' chuck Drill is Also a Hammer Drill? 

 Anyway, Guess I'll order a Rectifier and Wait for that to come in. Meanwhile...

 Anyone with suggestions on the prop Size or should I wait to see what type of results I get with a Rectified Test?

 Thanks!

[Flux]

Your drill will be loaded even on no load . The case will obviously be worse at the higher speed so prabably reasonable to assume 65v at 1000 rpm and this will be ac line volts. Dc rectified will ne near 90v,

For cut in at 24v we are looking at something near 270 rpm. Bearing in mind that it will need a fair torque to break it away you arel ikely looking at a modest tsr 6ft prop ( 7ft at the most)

I suspect this will be safe for its current handling but Shaft fixing may need careful thought.  Unless you can do some sort of load test on it you really have no idea how it will match the prop but if it is too stiff you will need some resistance.

If load tests show that it could take a larger prop then you could use a boost converter to get cut in in light winds and make it more versatile but the issue of the shaft connection becomes a big factor.

Flux

[gww]

mastiffman
Sounds like about 11.33 rpm per rectified volt.  You should get about 30 volts at 340 rpm.  5 foot tsr 7 blades in a 7 mph wind would be going about 267 rpm and would give you 23 volts dc.  If I know what I am talking about??? This will be a pretty fast turning turbine for 24 volt.  If I don't know what I am talking about I hope some one here corrects me.  Hope this helps.
Cheers
gww

Flux posted while I was posting and I garentee that he is smarter then me.

[tecker]

Three phase with encoder and brake me thinks . Good catch.

[stratford4528]

Chinese 3 phase bridge rectifiers.  I burnt out a 70amp then an 80amp on my 1000watt 24 volt   I now use a 150amp on a large heat sink. They are not as good as they say.

[birdhouse]

+1 ^^

150A chinese with a big ol' chunk of ALU has served me fine for years with 1000w max at 24v. 

note:  heat transfer paste was used between rect. and ALU. 

adam

[Mastiffman]

mastiffman
Sounds like about 11.33 rpm per rectified volt.  You should get about 30 volts at 340 rpm.  5 foot tsr 7 blades in a 7 mph wind would be going about 267 rpm and would give you 23 volts dc.  If I know what I am talking about??? This will be a pretty fast turning turbine for 24 volt.  If I don't know what I am talking about I hope some one here corrects me.  Hope this helps.
Cheers
gww

Flux posted while I was posting and I garentee that he is smarter then me.

+1 ^^

150A chinese with a big ol' chunk of ALU has served me fine for years with 1000w max at 24v. 

note:  heat transfer paste was used between rect. and ALU. 

adam

 Okay so I think that I have some rough readings from this thing... I went out and purchased a couple of Drill Adapters to make sure that I could get a good grip during loa (i.e 3/8" Socket Drill bit and 3/8" Socket 8mm Hex driver.) I purchased the 80amp Adam recommended off ebay as well.

 Configured a 4 6v 208ah 24v battery bank and with my little Ryobi corded Hammer Drill (option to disable hammering) I managed to get just over 18.5 amps @ around 28v into the bank...? I have no idea what the Rpms were other than quite a bit lower than 1000rpms that's for sure and it wasn't very fast. Not sure if this unit would be a good for a 24v though. Maybe 36 or 48v. Unless I geared it with a larger gear on the motor and smaller on the prop... Thats more than I'd like to do and have time for at this point.

 So Thoughts?

[Flux]

You really need the cut in speed and it it not easy to get that with a drill unless it has a variable speed and you have means of measuring speed.

A crank handle and timing turns would let you find the generated volts at say 120 rpm.

To get 18A into 24v you are looking at something like an 8ft prop in a realistic wind. You would need a cut in at 200rpm or lower for an 8ft prop to get any results in normal winds.

To use an 8ft prop I suspect you would need an extra bearing and shaft adapter. That speed may seem slow but anything above 600 rpm on an 8ft prop is really fast and noisy.

If you want to run at 36 or 48v then it will be a tiny prop and no way will you see big amps in any normal wind.

Try to get the cut in speed. From your earlier figures I suspect it is about 300 rpm. Unless you want to ignore winds below 15mph you are not going to be able to use a prop big enough to get the 18A in normal winds.

Flux

[tanner0441]

Hi

I bought a little none contact Tacho off Ebay for about £8 or £9, took about 10 days to arrive checking by putting a reflector on the fan on free running synchronous motor (removed fan cover) the accuracy was within the stated figures.

It seems to work with black tape on a shiny surface as well, and has a laser to aid aiming. It will, albeit less reliably work with the keyway directly on the shaft.

Brian

[Mastiffman]

You really need the cut in speed and it it not easy to get that with a drill unless it has a variable speed and you have means of measuring speed.

A crank handle and timing turns would let you find the generated volts at say 120 rpm.

To get 18A into 24v you are looking at something like an 8ft prop in a realistic wind. You would need a cut in at 200rpm or lower for an 8ft prop to get any results in normal winds.

To use an 8ft prop I suspect you would need an extra bearing and shaft adapter. That speed may seem slow but anything above 600 rpm on an 8ft prop is really fast and noisy.

If you want to run at 36 or 48v then it will be a tiny prop and no way will you see big amps in any normal wind.

Try to get the cut in speed. From your earlier figures I suspect it is about 300 rpm. Unless you want to ignore winds below 15mph you are not going to be able to use a prop big enough to get the 18A in normal winds.

Flux

 Okay, so I performed this type of Test using an 8mm hex wrench and twisted the shaft 2 times/ sec. and got a reading of around 9.89vdc to 10.35vdc... Giving me a median voltage of around 10.12vdc ultimately yeilding roughly the 6rpms / volt that I was quote by the Kaw. Rep.

 So that would mean that for a 24v battery bank including the losses totalling 85% efficiency I would need at least a good 175rpms for cutin speed? 

 So this thing would Definitely need to be put into "Clean Air" on a good 70ft+ tower?

 And you're saying an 8ft prop?

[Flux]

175 rpm is not unreasonable for an 8ft prop especially with an iron cored motor with drag. You will not get anything from the low winds below about 8mph.

I don't see the shaft being suitable without modifcation or extra bearings for a prop as large as that, but I am only looking at pictures.

As for a 70 ft tower, yes that would be nice and benefits any wind machine but all depends on the surroundings. Ideally you need to be 30ft above local obstructions.  Many a machine has given useful results under far less ideal conditions. If it is your total source of power it may be worth the cost of a tall tower but it will be a lot of expense and I suspect that motor would not justify the cost.  If you can get a decent clear direction for the prevailing wind a 30ft tower could be fine. It certainly is useless to have a machine below tree level with no exposed direction to the prevailing wind.

The bigger the machine the better the wind needs to be for it to be cost effective and to reduce turbulence and stress. 8ft is a bit more tolerant.

Flux

[WindyOne]

 It really was just a quick twist of the Shaft. The kawasaki rep stated that this was 5000v @ 3000rpm...

 I just hooked my Ryobi Corded Drill up to it that has 2 Speeds.

1. Speed 1 = 1000rpm max
2. Speed 2 = 3000rpm max

 I used only one set of leads. Red and Black

 Rpm to Voltage results were as follows.

1. Speed 1 = 63Vac max
2. Speed 2 = 154Vac max

1. Speed 1 = 11.59 amps
2. Speed 2 = 27.46 amps

 So some simple math should tell us that Speed 1 is yeilding 15.87rpms/ Volt and Speed 2 is yielding 19.48 rpms/ Volt.

 But I can tell you that definitely on Speed 2, the drill's pitch at full power wasn't producing 3000rpms... If not also Speed 1. So those number above are most likely higher than they really should be.

 Using the Volts and Amps values for Speed 1 then can we estimate that peak watts occurs at approx (1/2 x 63 VAC) times (1/2 x 12 Amps) or roughly 33 Volts x 6 amps = 200 watts?