Author Topic: Building a metal rack on a shipping container  (Read 6560 times)

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madlabs

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Building a metal rack on a shipping container
« on: January 04, 2013, 11:18:37 AM »
Hi All,

As the subject implies, I am building a rack on a shipping container to hold 4.3kW worth of panels. They will be in strings of 3, which will make the racks a little over 16 feet long, so some will be cantilevered over the edge of the container. I think I have decided to use mostly 1 1/4" * 1 1/4" * 1/8" angle iron. It will be fixed, even though I love my adjustable array. The weight will be 700 lbs worth of panels.

My questions are:

1) Room for expansion between the panels? Max temps here are in the 100 deg. F range, and that is rare. The array will have loads of ventilation underneath. How much room if needed?

2) So we are going to have aluminum attached to steel. Of course I'll use stainless fastners, but should I worry about the steel to aluminum contact? I could put a strip of rubber/plastic? What if I got the frame galvanized? I'm guessing that would be bad, corrosion-wise. So I'll paint it, I guess.

I think I have most of the design figgered, but does anyone have some pics of a rack on a container, especially the joints and so on?

Thanks!

Jonathan

SteveCH

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Re: Building a metal rack on a shipping container
« Reply #1 on: January 04, 2013, 01:46:23 PM »
I used the same material for my array racks. 1/8" angle iron, though mine was 1 1/2". I have probably 11 of these racks now, due to my adding slowly to the array over a 25-yr. period. And, I have to wrestle them by myself up a steep hillside, so smaller, three- or 4-panel racks are what I did.

I left an eighth inch between panels. I don't know whether I need any space at all, but I did it that way. I have never measured the ambient temp' up at the racks, but our temp' up here can be -20 F. to +98 F. or so. I made the fastener holes slightly oversized for expansion/contraction. I have seen no sign of stress in even the oldest panel frames.

I cleaned the angle iron well and painted with regular metal paint, sometimes from spray cans and sometimes brushed on, depending on what I happened to have around. I did nothing else to prevent galvanic corrosion between the aluminum PV frames and the steel rack. So far, since 1985, I can detect no corrosion. If there is any, it is so slight I cannot see it.

Now, I live in a very dry area and environment. It is not unusual for us to see 10% humidity or less. I cannot attest to whether my minimal method would work in a humid area. If you feel you need to isolate the aluminum frames from the rack material, you could use any number of non-metalic materials you have around, for no money. Plastic, etc. Obviously, if your array will be anywhere near an ocean environment, you must be careful to isolate all dissimilar metals.

I did drill some weep holes in the lower horizontal member of each rack so that rain water/snow melt could depart.


« Last Edit: January 04, 2013, 01:53:43 PM by SteveCH »

madlabs

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Re: Building a metal rack on a shipping container
« Reply #2 on: January 04, 2013, 02:57:15 PM »
Steve,

Always nice to hear from someone who has already done it. Sounds like I'm on the right track. I do have plenty of fog and rain but I am 3 miles inland from the ocean. I'm going to fit and build it and then take it apart and paint it. I was thinking of galvanizing it but I fear that would be bad for the aluminum frames.

Just putting together the order for the steel now, should get here next week.

Jonathan

Mary B

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Re: Building a metal rack on a shipping container
« Reply #3 on: January 04, 2013, 04:40:50 PM »
Aluminum and galvanizing play well together. I have antenna mounting plates up against galvanized masts with no problems for years.

madlabs

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Re: Building a metal rack on a shipping container
« Reply #4 on: January 06, 2013, 11:14:29 AM »
Really? I thought zinc and aluminum didn't play well together. I'll look into that, I like the thought of galvanizing.

JOnathan

Mary B

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Re: Building a metal rack on a shipping container
« Reply #5 on: January 06, 2013, 03:59:52 PM »
My concern is the square feet of panels acting as a sail on top of the shipping container. I can see a high wind tipping it over if it isn't anchored.

azjustin

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Re: Building a metal rack on a shipping container
« Reply #6 on: January 06, 2013, 11:52:58 PM »
+1 on what MaryAlana said. 

40' containers are only about 10k lbs, high cubes a little more.  4.3kw of panels would make an awfully large sail that could probably tip everything in a large wind gust that local codes try to protect you from (90 mph here).  My containers are 12" above grade on piers and they "shiver" in 40 mph gusts without anything attached to them.  Putting 4.3kw of panels on one would keep me awake every time the wind kicked up, particularly because of the cantilever. 

If you do put the panels up, make sure you bolt them through the roof into some sort of reinforcement inside the container since the steel is only designed to keep the elements out.  Getting a U-bolt around a cross member and your panel support would be ideal.  The edges of the container are obviously the best connection points, depending on the design.

As for corrosion between the metal types: I have 25 year old solar panels that were bolted to painted steel with zinc covered bolts and grounded to earth.  The bolts look worse than the aluminum or the steel, which show only minimal rust and zero corrosion.  This is in AZ though, very hot but only humid for a couple of months in the summer.  Coastal areas will be much different on these metals.

Good luck.

madlabs

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Re: Building a metal rack on a shipping container
« Reply #7 on: January 07, 2013, 10:42:26 AM »
The thought of it tipping over hadn't occurred to me, that's a disturbing thought. It isn't anchored. A pity, I just poured a new concrete pad for one end and am going to do the other but I didn't put in an anchor. I wanted to keep it non-permanent as far as the building department is concerned.

But a 40' container jam packed with storage, tools, batteries, power system and so on flipping over? It is awful heavy and it was quite a job to jack it up to put the concrete in. The panels will be 20' by 16'.  About 4 feet will be cantilevered. I can put plywood on the ends on top of the container to help keep the wind from getting underneath. So do you really think I am in danger here? In four years with a smaller array mounted (6'x9') I have never felt the slightest shiver. One end is about 3" above the ground and the other will be about a foot.

I do have the option of adding some anchors to the other end. This is the door end and I will be making a concrete step which could easily have anchor bolts. The real question is the other end is cast in stone (as of just yesterday, dangit!) so do I try a retrofit?

Thanks for the input!

Jonathan

Mary B

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Re: Building a metal rack on a shipping container
« Reply #8 on: January 07, 2013, 02:38:19 PM »
drive in arrow point anchors are considered temporary anchoring for structures here, use a steel cable to attach to whatever you need to hold down. Enough will hold down anything. Or big screw in anchors on each side with a steel cable up and over the top and down to one on the other side. Now knowing what your top wind speeds are it is a guess on our part.

phil b

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Re: Building a metal rack on a shipping container
« Reply #9 on: January 07, 2013, 09:14:12 PM »
Madlabs,
You might do the math on the wind load on a 40' container side. I did this but don't remember them now. I do remember thinking I am overbuilding the anchors severely because even without them, it would take over 100 mph winds to have any effect at all. The type anchors you use will heavily depend on your soil type and depth of the anchors.

Mine weigh 8,820 lbs. each and are 40', standard height. I'm still anchoring mine to accommodate the higher winds of tornado activity common in this area. 
Phil

madlabs

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Re: Building a metal rack on a shipping container
« Reply #10 on: January 07, 2013, 09:23:41 PM »
Any tips on wind loading calcs? Now I'd like to figger it out just to know and deal with it if need be.

Highest wind I've ever seen here is 70 mph or so, but I have only lived here 20 years (Albion, CA) I'll look into local records. We aren't in hurricane or tornado country though.

What about space between panels for expansion? Steve says 1/8", any second opinions?

Steel for the rack came today! Time to get welding and grinding!

Jonathan

phil b

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Re: Building a metal rack on a shipping container
« Reply #11 on: January 07, 2013, 10:43:08 PM »
Frank S listed a few sites with the calculations on them about a year ago. I googled for them and found several also.

I think Steve's 1/8" is about right. I started out with laminates and made my own frames, so don't take my word for it. Look on the middle of this page if you want to know how I mounted mine. Laminates on Superstrut glued with Dap 4.0. I have 1880 watts up now with no problems after two 110 degree summers and going into the second winter.   http://www.anotherpower.com/board/index.php/topic,198.30.html

I hope you post your results after you finish them!
Phil

DamonHD

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Re: Building a metal rack on a shipping container
« Reply #12 on: January 08, 2013, 03:03:46 AM »
Never mind thermal expansion, the gap between panels allows air circulation to help keep the panels as cool as possible given ambient conditions, which maximises output.  I'd say that here in sunny London the typical gap between panels on the various systems I've been involved with is (much) less than 1cm, maybe typically half that.

Rgds

Damon
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madlabs

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Re: Building a metal rack on a shipping container
« Reply #13 on: January 08, 2013, 10:09:34 AM »
All,

So I did a basic wind load calc, Force = Area * Pressure (per square foot) * Drag Coefficient

I started with an 80 mph wind and an area of 288 sq. feet. It came out to 9175 lbs of force for the array. Added to the load of the container itself, I came up with 19,660. I'm think that is about what the container weighs with all of it's contents. I might do an inventory and get a better guess of weight.

My question is, are the calcs above conservative or lax? If conservative I think I'm OK. If not, I better add some anchorage.

As to space, I have never seen an array with 1cm between panels but I haven't seen too many arrays. In my case, adding a cm between panels wouldn't help because it would not increase air circulation, as the panels will be sitting on some angle iron. So all I need to worry about is thermal expansion. Luckily, I will get good air circulation as my panels will be raised well off the container.

Thanks for all the help!

Jonathan

birdhouse

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Re: Building a metal rack on a shipping container
« Reply #14 on: January 08, 2013, 10:38:16 AM »
even though your one pad is already poured, it would be easy to anchor the container to the slab. 

drill 1/2 or 5/8" hole through bottom of container, drill same size hole into the slab.  clean hole with compressed air and round brush, squirt simpson tie 2 part anchor epoxy into hole, slide threaded rod into epoxy filled hole, jiggle a bit, wait 48hrs, put a fat boy washer and nut on, and torque down. 

you could even do the same for the other side if you were worried about alignment issues via pre=casting bolts. 

that stuff is incredibly strong.  most inspectors considered it in the same strength ballpark as "j" bolts. 

what are the dimensions of the slab? 

adam

madlabs

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Re: Building a metal rack on a shipping container
« Reply #15 on: January 08, 2013, 02:14:05 PM »
I was thinking of using the Simpson bolts things and it is good to hear they are strong. The two corners I have done have a 16" x 16" x 12" chunk of concrete. The end I haven't done id the door end and it will have a full length 8' stair and slab. I will be adding j-bolts to this end.

Thanks for the advice, folks!

Jonathan

birdhouse

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Re: Building a metal rack on a shipping container
« Reply #16 on: January 08, 2013, 08:12:06 PM »
Quote
Simpson bolts things and it is good to hear they are strong

actually, standard expansion concrete anchors aren't very strong at all.  i was refering to the two part anchor epoxy simpson makes.  after cleaning the hole, you caulk the goo in there, and insert standard threaded rod.  takes 24hrs to cure if its warm out. 

http://www.strongtie.com/products/anchorsystems/adhesives/set/index.html

by my calcs, you used a total of 527lbs of concrete on the one end.  that's not a whole lot.  may want to consider larger footings on the front, or even a middle set even though the container doesn't need them for strength.  that is, if you're worried about the thing flipping.   

as you mentioned, closing off the high side of the panel array would also help quite a bit!  keep that array from becoming a parachute!  there's a 35Kw system on a building i work on, and they used wind deflector plates on the high side of the array to be able to use less roof penetrations (leak spots). 

adam

madlabs

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Re: Building a metal rack on a shipping container
« Reply #17 on: January 08, 2013, 09:43:52 PM »
Adam,

The epoxy was what I thought you were talking about. I will use that for sure. The door end is going to have steps and go across the entire end. By my calculation I will have about a yard of concrete, so in the range of 3k pounds. That oughtta help! Rather than concrete in the center I might use the screw in type of tie down.

I dunno though, feels like with anchors into the cement I have I should be OK. No insurance, so I better be! :-)

Thanks for the help folks! Really appreciate it.

Jonathan

birdhouse

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Re: Building a metal rack on a shipping container
« Reply #18 on: January 08, 2013, 10:47:28 PM »
if you're winging it with no permits, and no insurance, i'd definitely add more concrete.  and maybe use midpoint screw ins. 

i've got a 70' guyed turbine tower w/ no permits, but it has four yards total in conical shaped footings. 

how hard would it be to trench between the two back footings, peg into them, and pour some more? 

i'm wondering what happens, when you remove a bunch of stuff from the container ect...  make it lighter... 

concrete is CHEAP, i'd put as much as you can in the ground! 

i've got a few unsecured (pier block) structures, and the tip over thought has always entered my mind.  if a big array was mounted to either of them, i'd be worried!

many folks hate mixing concrete manually in a wheel barrow, i kinda like it...  weird i know, but if you're not in a hurry, it's not bad.  getting the bags there in a small pick-up is not so fun. 

adam

madlabs

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Re: Building a metal rack on a shipping container
« Reply #19 on: January 08, 2013, 11:11:07 PM »


how hard would it be to trench between the two back footings, peg into them, and pour some more? 
adam

Good idea. That would be easy-peasy. It's all still jacked up and there is plenty of access.

Thanks!

Jonathan

birdhouse

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Re: Building a metal rack on a shipping container
« Reply #20 on: January 08, 2013, 11:30:04 PM »
i guess all i'm getting at, if it's your main power in, make it right.  i've got 400w of solar on the roof of one of my pier structures, but i keep ~1000lbs of bagged concrete in there for future projects.  at the same time, i'd be worried if i went through all that concrete and the structure got light! 

i restack it with the new bags on the bottom of the pile, but it still mixes pretty easily after 3 years. 

adam

 

madlabs

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Re: Building a metal rack on a shipping container
« Reply #21 on: January 09, 2013, 12:27:08 PM »
I agree. It is my only source of power, so I am gonna try to anchor it well. I'm very glad that I started this thread, anchoring wasn't on my radar.

Jonathan

phil b

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Re: Building a metal rack on a shipping container
« Reply #22 on: January 09, 2013, 08:12:42 PM »
I Googled "wind load calculations for buildings"
Here is few I came up with.

http://www.wikihow.com/Calculate-Wind-Load

A more detailed one.
https://courses.cit.cornell.edu/arch264/calculators/seismic-wind/index.html

I am glad to see the concrete. That's a smart move and cheap insurance policy.
Phil

Frank S

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Re: Building a metal rack on a shipping container
« Reply #23 on: January 10, 2013, 07:40:49 AM »
 Low structures are not as effected by this as high structures but the down wind buffeting caused by turbulence and Eddy currents due to the negative pressures can create a harmonic resonance it is the convergences of the natural  frontal resonances and the negative pressures that cause structures to begin to fail
 the container by itself with a billboard sized array might just sit there through a hurricane force wind if it is heavy enough, but the array on top may see some damage.
 there was a thread a while back where a guy had an array mounted on the ground with a tracking base almost before the installation was complete the whole thing wound up as so much scrap 
I live so far outside of the box, when I die they will stretch my carcass over the coffin

madlabs

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Re: Building a metal rack on a shipping container
« Reply #24 on: January 10, 2013, 11:25:59 AM »
Phil, I had found the same formula and it says that I would probabaly be ok. But the array isn't flat and so I think it might make lift etc. In any case, I am going to add anchors to the pads I already did and connect them together with more concrete. I am starting to form the other end today and I got J bolts for that.

As to the array being strong enough Frank, I' am going to build it as a brick $hit house. I got a lot of steel to build it with.

Thanks!

Jonathan

Frank S

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Re: Building a metal rack on a shipping container
« Reply #25 on: January 10, 2013, 12:44:44 PM »
Yep it is just not worth putting several $$$$ worth of panels at risk
I live so far outside of the box, when I die they will stretch my carcass over the coffin

phil b

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Re: Building a metal rack on a shipping container
« Reply #26 on: January 10, 2013, 09:21:41 PM »
I'm thinking the corrugated container walls tend to cause eddy currents not present in a flat surfaced wall. This in itself would tend to negate the at least some of the natural resonances.

I have 8 solar panels on the roof now that do see eddy currents that will make them slide and oscillate if they are at 35 degrees for winter optimum. The reason -they are not bolted down. Not good. Gotta get that done. I'm also thinking of building a waist high wall on the north side to slow the wind down a bit.

Madlabs, I don't see any reason to get too technical on the wind issue because as Frank S said, they are low to the ground. I use the calculations to give me an idea as to what to expect.

In May of last year, an oilfield company had a 20 foot container being used for a dog house on their drilling rig. A tornado came along and blew the container several hundred yards away from its original location. There were roughnecks in the container at the time. They and the container as well, had cuts and scrapes but were otherwise unharmed. 

I may be all wet here with this line of thinking. Just my opinion.  ;D
Phil

madlabs

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Re: Building a metal rack on a shipping container
« Reply #27 on: January 11, 2013, 10:45:05 AM »
Well, I'm not going too nuts on it. But it isn't going to cost anything other than a couple j-bolts and a little work.

Form almost done at dark last night. Soon as I finish this cup of coffee I'm gonna go finish it up. Then whenever my lazy bro in law gets here it's time to mix concrete!

Jonathan