Author Topic: EMP...Faraday cage on solar panels?  (Read 27833 times)

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Steadfast

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EMP...Faraday cage on solar panels?
« on: March 26, 2013, 03:26:08 PM »
Here is a fun question!  :o

In the case of a nuclear EMP, I was wondering if solar panels would need a faraday cage to survive?

If the Need of a faraday cage, for solar panel EMP survival, is valid;
Do effective faraday cags need to be made of solid metal sheets or
could I use carpenters coth to make a cage which would allow my panels to remain in use and also protected?

If this "carpenters coth/wire mesh" solution is valid, what screen width is no longer dense enough to Faraday protect a Solar Panel from a Nuclear EMP?  (as defined by this sight)
http://www.hillsidewirecloth.com/definition.html
« Last Edit: March 26, 2013, 03:32:01 PM by Steadfast »
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DamonHD

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Re: EMP...Faraday cage on solar panels?
« Reply #1 on: March 26, 2013, 03:31:31 PM »
Protecting PV is likely to be the very last of your problems with EMP: your control electronics and everything else downstream would be toast, and any screening mesh has an actual immediate and continuings reduction in your PV performance when the only nuke radiation is coming from the Sun.

Rgds

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Steadfast

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Re: EMP...Faraday cage on solar panels?
« Reply #2 on: March 26, 2013, 03:37:53 PM »
That's is exactly  my point...

could a mesh as wide as say.... grounded chicken coop wire make an effective faraday cage?
Used at an ecceptible loss of 1%-2% solar grabbing efficiancy.
or would the panel need a much denser screen weave to be EMP immune, leaving it usefully ineffective?

And also,
Precisely because PV effectively runs off of solar radiation are the panels immune to an EMP, and thus would Solar Panels survive un-protected?
« Last Edit: March 26, 2013, 03:48:32 PM by Steadfast »
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Steadfast

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Re: EMP...Faraday cage on solar panels?
« Reply #3 on: March 26, 2013, 03:42:07 PM »
If the only item at risk is some wire and the solar controller,  one could always store extra Solar controllers in the same faraday cage as they would any emergency radios.

This fun question Has been asked of me by several preppers in my area...
My answer has always been to assume the panel would be fried.
or am I wrong?  I certanly hope so...
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Steadfast

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Re: EMP...Faraday cage on solar panels?
« Reply #4 on: March 26, 2013, 03:54:52 PM »
I guess the best way to answer this is to ask
"What happen to solar panels when they get struck by lighting?"

I just found this answer:
http://www.ribencha.com/can-solar-panels-survive-being-struck-by-lightning-7417/
« Last Edit: March 26, 2013, 03:58:53 PM by Steadfast »
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joestue

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Re: EMP...Faraday cage on solar panels?
« Reply #5 on: March 26, 2013, 04:01:53 PM »
protecting against lightning is easy compared to the emp from a nuke lol.

i'd recommend throwing everything in a 10 foot steel container. use copper mesh to seal the door shut.
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Steadfast

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Re: EMP...Faraday cage on solar panels?
« Reply #6 on: March 26, 2013, 05:13:12 PM »
Gee THAT was helpful....  ???

Anyone else have an answer that is not merely a smart assed comment spouted simply to avoid the fact that you simply have no clue. 
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joestue

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Re: EMP...Faraday cage on solar panels?
« Reply #7 on: March 26, 2013, 06:10:27 PM »
lol
i do have a clue what i'm talking about.

one of the ways *they* protect electronics against nuke EMP is to include neutron detectors in the electronics, these neutron detectors then activate the protection devices (basically big mosfets) which short out every conductor which leaves the box.
the neutron detectors give you a few microseconds warning..

off the top of my head, the currents and voltages involved are about the same, lighting and nuclear emp (depending on which of the 4 surges you're talking about) but instead of 8/20 micro seconds, they show up 1000 times faster.

burying your electronics 10 feet deep is sufficient, provided there are not electrical connections to the surface.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2013, 06:20:35 PM by joestue »
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Steadfast

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Re: EMP...Faraday cage on solar panels?
« Reply #8 on: March 27, 2013, 05:41:25 AM »
See.  Now that's an answer.  And a good one too.
But how does it practically apply to my question?
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tanner0441

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Re: EMP...Faraday cage on solar panels?
« Reply #9 on: March 27, 2013, 02:59:23 PM »
Hi

It depends on the proximity of the blast, assuming your able to protect your panels does it do you any good if you are turned into a shadow on the nearest wall. I think any form of protection capable of protecting your panels would reduce the output enough to render them as useless any way. Add to that you might get fully charged batteries but where is your uncontaminated food coming from? and the government would most likely move you to "A place of safety".

You could cover the ground with mirrors turn your panels over to collect the reflected light from the mirrors and sheet metal to the backs of the panels, and run all the wiring through metal conduit or trunking.

Back in the fifties we were told in the event of a nuclear attack you put your head between your legs pucker up and kiss your ass goodby.....

Brian.

dbcollen

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Re: EMP...Faraday cage on solar panels?
« Reply #10 on: March 27, 2013, 03:59:00 PM »
See.  Now that's an answer.  And a good one too.
But how does it practically apply to my question?


Exactly what answer are you looking for?
 I would say just unwrap your tinfoil hat and put that around your solar panels.   ;)

XeonPony

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Re: EMP...Faraday cage on solar panels?
« Reply #11 on: March 27, 2013, 04:20:20 PM »
As another posted said you are flat out sol pretty much other then to store a redundant system underground in a completely shielded metal container.

My thoughs if there was ever a nuke ware there'd be very little to restrict wind flow!

My plans where to have a completed ready to deploy system self contained, in the disaster/war go up, fly the wind turbines, deploy the back up panels (And hope the original ones survived!)

All so stored with the system would be my second container with 2000gallons of water and about 2 or more years dried goods, and a green house kit, and beside those two would be the actual living quarters, 3 40 footers welded together.

So how far over board do you want to go?
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Mary B

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Re: EMP...Faraday cage on solar panels?
« Reply #12 on: March 27, 2013, 04:29:31 PM »
Emp energy peaks in the 2-3 ghz microwave region, mesh at that size would be very tiny to provide waveguide cutoff frequency.

joestue

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Re: EMP...Faraday cage on solar panels?
« Reply #13 on: March 27, 2013, 09:24:03 PM »
I wouldn't say it is impossible. but the mesh needs to be on the order of half inch square grid #20 awg wire, connected to the other side of the cell through each 6 inch cell.. meaning the mesh needs to be inside the solar panel assembly.
My wife says I'm not just a different colored rubik's cube, i am a rubik's knot in a cage.

Mary B

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Re: EMP...Faraday cage on solar panels?
« Reply #14 on: March 28, 2013, 09:47:38 PM »
smaller than half inch, that is barely useable at 432mhz, at microwaves that is a huge gap.

Steadfast

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Re: EMP...Faraday cage on solar panels?
« Reply #15 on: March 28, 2013, 10:34:21 PM »
I think you're onto something Alana.
I have been reading on other sites that EMP waves are nothing like lightning.
Which could be diverted by a simple grounded mesh cage.
however, any gaps at all will let the EMP microwaves in. 

Therefore are the best "mesh" to ward off an EMP is a solid box made of sheet of metal
And lined inside with a solid nonfarris material!

so much for using the solar panels AND protecting them at the same time.
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XeonPony

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Re: EMP...Faraday cage on solar panels?
« Reply #16 on: March 28, 2013, 10:45:57 PM »
Yup steadfast that is indeed the answer, keep a whole system burried in a feraday cage is the only sure shot  way to be fully prepped for that highely unlikely event!
Ignorance is not bliss, You may not know there is a semie behind you but you'll still be a hood ornimant!

Nothing fails like prayer, Two hands clasped in work will achieve more in a minute then a billion will in a melenia in prayer. In other words go out and do some real good by helping!

Frank S

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Re: EMP...Faraday cage on solar panels?
« Reply #17 on: March 29, 2013, 12:12:19 AM »
A lot of things are not completely understood about EMP
http://standeyo.com/News_Files/NBC/EMP.protection.html
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niall2

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Re: EMP...Faraday cage on solar panels?
« Reply #18 on: March 29, 2013, 01:03:39 AM »
erm...an emp strike....a nuke ....alien evasion ?...if your pv panels are still working after such events you,ve got a lot more to worry about than low amp output....

mainly.... everybody else will want to get their hands on them ....better load up with some 50 calibre then ...that or old slim whitman records .. :)

i agree things are going to pot though .....these days you never know ...:)
« Last Edit: March 29, 2013, 01:22:04 AM by niall2 »

joestue

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Re: EMP...Faraday cage on solar panels?
« Reply #19 on: March 29, 2013, 01:24:14 AM »
A lot of things are not completely understood about EMP
http://standeyo.com/News_Files/NBC/EMP.protection.html

the russians did a test, the emp "Fused" a telephone line buried 3 feet deep, blew up the gas discharge tubes and generally fried everything.
aluminum foil is not good enough. might work for a cellphone, but its not like you're going to have service after that.

Mary: the wavelength of the emp is on the order of 10 feet. the issues is the dc resistance of the faraday cage.
14 awg steel is sufficient.
My wife says I'm not just a different colored rubik's cube, i am a rubik's knot in a cage.

Mary B

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Re: EMP...Faraday cage on solar panels?
« Reply #20 on: March 29, 2013, 01:33:03 AM »
EMP extends up to about 3ghz, at those frequencies wavelength is very small. Voltage does drop off tho but smaller antennas like cell phones will be very susceptible as it sweeps past that antennas resonant point


Frank S

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Re: EMP...Faraday cage on solar panels?
« Reply #21 on: March 29, 2013, 02:05:27 AM »
Probably the best thing to know in case of an EMP caused by a nuclear detonation is YOGA that way you might be able to bend over far enough to kiss your butt good-by
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madlabs

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Re: EMP...Faraday cage on solar panels?
« Reply #22 on: March 29, 2013, 10:13:16 AM »
Hahaha! Yep, time for yoga lessons...

cdog

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Re: EMP...Faraday cage on solar panels?
« Reply #23 on: March 31, 2013, 09:24:14 AM »
They will never nuke us....who would be left to enslave further and keep doing their grunt work?
Ya can't have an empire without slaves!

Mary B

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Re: EMP...Faraday cage on solar panels?
« Reply #24 on: March 31, 2013, 04:21:47 PM »
EMP leaves the slaves, land, most of the infrastructure

jlsoaz

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Re: EMP...Faraday cage on solar panels?
« Reply #25 on: June 19, 2016, 09:35:19 PM »
Here is a fun question!  :o

In the case of a nuclear EMP, I was wondering if solar panels would need a faraday cage to survive?

If the Need of a faraday cage, for solar panel EMP survival, is valid;
Do effective faraday cags need to be made of solid metal sheets or
could I use carpenters coth to make a cage which would allow my panels to remain in use and also protected?

If this "carpenters coth/wire mesh" solution is valid, what screen width is no longer dense enough to Faraday protect a Solar Panel from a Nuclear EMP?  (as defined by this sight)
http://www.hillsidewirecloth.com/definition.html

Hi, three years later, my question is not the same, but it's a bit similar so I thought I'd ask:

In the event of a very bad solar storm (or whatever it is from the sun that would or might cause a severe bad electronics problems in some geographic areas on earth), is there a recommended smart way to protect one's solar, inverters and other equipment?

This gives an idea of the sort of event I am concerned about:
http://www.solarstorms.org/SRefStorms.html

DamonHD

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Re: EMP...Faraday cage on solar panels?
« Reply #26 on: June 20, 2016, 06:52:11 AM »
IIRC:

EMP gives kV/m (kilovolts per metre of cabling) induced voltages.

Solar flares give V/km (volts per kilometre) induced voltages.

So several orders of magnitude difference, possibly 6 or more.

Thus I'd have thought that PV wouldn't even notice, but decent bypass and blocking diodes would ensure that any small voltages and currents induced would be likely dissipated safely.

Rgds

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joestue

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Re: EMP...Faraday cage on solar panels?
« Reply #27 on: June 20, 2016, 11:43:15 AM »
The volts per kilometer produced by natural events is proportional to the area of the loop passing through the earths magnetic field. you need on the order of 100,000 square meters of area to get a dozen volts.

The problem for the grid is the current produced in the line is enough to cause a few hundred amps of dc current to flow, saturating the transformer core which then draws excessive ac amps from the line. The only reason the current can flow is because the neutral grounded at both ends. all they have to do is lift the ground at one end, put a capacitor in series. There could still be net dc show up from one phase to another, but usually the phases are alternated with each other so each has the same inductance to ground, so it would be very minimal dc if any significant current.

a congressionally funded study iirc estimated it would cost 50,000 dollars for each of the 1000 largest substations to open the loop with a capacitor, resistor and spark gap, why the utilities haven't installed this equipment themselves, i don't know. they have known about this problem for nearly 100 years
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jlsoaz

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Re: EMP...Faraday cage on solar panels?
« Reply #28 on: June 22, 2016, 11:04:23 PM »
The volts per kilometer produced by natural events is proportional to the area of the loop passing through the earths magnetic field. you need on the order of 100,000 square meters of area to get a dozen volts.

The problem for the grid is the current produced in the line is enough to cause a few hundred amps of dc current to flow, saturating the transformer core which then draws excessive ac amps from the line. The only reason the current can flow is because the neutral grounded at both ends. all they have to do is lift the ground at one end, put a capacitor in series. There could still be net dc show up from one phase to another, but usually the phases are alternated with each other so each has the same inductance to ground, so it would be very minimal dc if any significant current.

a congressionally funded study iirc estimated it would cost 50,000 dollars for each of the 1000 largest substations to open the loop with a capacitor, resistor and spark gap, why the utilities haven't installed this equipment themselves, i don't know. they have known about this problem for nearly 100 years

Thanks, you seem to be saying that on the scale of a home solar setup, it's maybe not worth focusing on, but is still worth focusing on for the grid.  While I'm not super-focused on preparing for this, I do think if I can find a moderate prudent solution, I'd like to prepare it. 

A couple of years ago I had to build a fence around my panels to reduce theft risk (they are on my front lawn).  I'm wondering now if some sort of "top" could be built to this fence and produce a primitive metal cage of sorts that I could deploy only if there was warning of a significant solar event.  Still, not sure this would protect my inverter, which is inside.  In fact, I understand so little of Faraday cages that probably the whole idea is just off and very unlikely to have any effect of protecting my system.

joestue

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Re: EMP...Faraday cage on solar panels?
« Reply #29 on: June 23, 2016, 12:32:29 AM »
A faraday cage works in theory, but in practicality the cage has a resistance R. whatever current induced in the cage causes volts across it, which radiates it inside the cage.

The loop area available in any average system is too small (it can be made almost zero) to induce any significant voltages, and its utterly hopeless to try and protect your system from the emp available from a nuke.

It is not impossible to harden your system against a direct lightning strike, but to do so will require more money spent in copper than the system is worth. it would be cheaper just to have a duplicate system buried in steel trashcans, 5 feet deep in the ground (such protection would also survive the emp from a nuke)


if you want to experiment with this, run a three wire loops in the X, Y and Z axis. say one loop is 5 feet by 50 feet N-S, the other 5 by 50 feet in the E-W axis, and the other is laying flat on the ground.

I have no idea what voltages you'd expect to get from such a system. a chopper stabilized opamp will reliably amplify micro volts by a factor of 1000 and you should be able to datalog the readings. who knows.. but you'd be dealing with micro volts and maybe millivolts.. until lighting strikes nearby.. then its millions.
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dnix71

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Re: EMP...Faraday cage on solar panels?
« Reply #30 on: June 23, 2016, 09:20:43 PM »
The flash from a nuclear explosion would fry your panels anyway. I have seen thunderstorm lightning so bright it caused my panels to turn the MPPT on in the middle of the night.

When the grid fails the world will return to the days of Fred Flintstone and Barney Rubble.

thirteen

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Re: EMP...Faraday cage on solar panels?
« Reply #31 on: June 24, 2016, 12:30:39 AM »
Would solar panels be trashed if not in use. Say stored in a basement or tunnel? How long would the blast last. Would we have any warning? Just wondering. 13
MntMnROY 13

joestue

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Re: EMP...Faraday cage on solar panels?
« Reply #32 on: June 24, 2016, 02:48:27 AM »
for the light/radiation to damage the panel you'd have to be within the blast range. ie.. dead.
My wife says I'm not just a different colored rubik's cube, i am a rubik's knot in a cage.