Author Topic: Sad news: Small wind manufacturer closes its doors, but why??  (Read 25009 times)

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gotwind2

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Southwest Windpower!, sorry for the external link, but it explains it more fully.
http://azdailysun.com/news/local/last-days-for-local-turbines/article_31662958-c28d-5af4-99ee-8f0e6f19f595.html

fabricator

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Re: Sad news: Small wind manufacturer closes its doors, but why??
« Reply #1 on: March 26, 2013, 05:49:18 PM »
SWWP has been in financial trouble for a long time, mostly due to declining quality and non existent customer service.
I aint skeerd of nuthin.......Holy Crap! What was that!!!!!
11 Miles east of Lake Michigan, Ottawa County, Robinson township, (home of the defacto residential wind ban) Michigan, USA.

ChrisOlson

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Re: Sad news: Small wind manufacturer closes its doors, but why??
« Reply #2 on: March 26, 2013, 09:47:47 PM »
SWWP has been in financial trouble for a long time, mostly due to declining quality and non existent customer service.

And lack of sales.  Grid-tied small wind turbines are a hard sell because they don't produce enough energy to make them viable.  And the off-grid market is small, very small.
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SparWeb

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Re: Sad news: Small wind manufacturer closes its doors, but why??
« Reply #3 on: March 27, 2013, 01:21:52 AM »
... because they don't produce enough energy to make them viable...

... especially compared to 1$ / watt solar panels...
... on the roof rather than on towers...
... in the urban market, compared to the rural-only market for turbines...

No one believes the theory except the one who developed it. Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.
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hydrosun

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Re: Sad news: Small wind manufacturer closes its doors, but why??
« Reply #4 on: March 27, 2013, 09:55:33 AM »
Besides, you can get a piece of c*** from china that looks the same for half the price. I think SWWP main market was sailboats. My Air 403 has been working since 1999 with only a prop change when I let the branches on the 100 foot doug fir grow up into the props path. It needs a stiff wind to start and doesn't put out much, and sounds like a wild banshee at high winds  but it has been a low maintainence machine. When the bearings go out I'll take it down and replace with a better unit but till the it just keeps me aware of the wind storms.
Chris

smidy

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Re: Sad news: Small wind manufacturer closes its doors, but why??
« Reply #5 on: March 27, 2013, 03:01:31 PM »
I own a air 403. I think that is why they close there busness, I dont know of there other products but if they are in the same neibourhood as the 403 (cant see a diffrence of a 403 and a air x..) and to try to sell that crap to people that wants energy is a joke, and yes I DO TELL MY FRIENDS go away from them (swwp) just because of that crap (air 403). If there low wind no energy, if it is high wind they break down, I know of 3 air 403 (maybe one is air x) incliuding my, they have all break down when the elektronics go to smoke, my and one more under garntietime, no problems instant replace machine (yeh thats so fun to replace thing on masts...) and the third was to old, then up yours, its to old...and that noise, whit or whitout(broke elektronics) energyproduction is...loud. It not fun when people is loosing there jobs, but away from that, who will miss them?
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Simen

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Re: Sad news: Small wind manufacturer closes its doors, but why??
« Reply #6 on: March 27, 2013, 03:24:20 PM »
I've got their latest incarnation; the Air-Breeze (max 200W; nominal: 160W@10.6m/s) on a turbulent site, and i've seldom seen any amp out of it... As mentioned earlier here; these are mostly for sailboats etc., and requires clean, turbulent-free wind to produce anything useful at all...

That said; my unit doesn't sound too bad; a low switching sound when it decelerate , that's all...
I will accept the rules that you feel necessary to your freedom. I am free, no matter what rules surround me. If I find them tolerable, I tolerate them; if I find them too obnoxious, I break them. I am free because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything I do. - (R. A. Heinlein)

RandomJoe

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Re: Sad news: Small wind manufacturer closes its doors, but why??
« Reply #7 on: March 29, 2013, 06:39:06 PM »
I had an Air Breeze for about 9 months.  My city has an ordinance again turbines, so I couldn't mount it very high, thus relatively turbulent air.  I had it about 30 feet high, just at the roofline but far below the tallest trees in the vicinity.  Mostly it would wind up, and just as it's getting to producing nicely it'd "spin out" - turn around 180 degrees and of course stop.  Then the next stretch of wind, it'd turn back into the wind, get going, just as the amps are coming up "spin out" and stop...

I kept track of production from it and my fledgeling solar system, started out at 500W in panels.  In the 9 months I kept it in the air the Breeze didn't even produce as much power as the solar system would in a single day!  :P  I'm sure mostly thanks to the poor site, but that "spin out" sure had me curious what caused that.

Sold it to a friend (also a ham radio operator) who wanted to put it atop a spare tower.  He used it to keep his ham shack battery bank charged, along with some Harbor Freight solar panels.  He never really paid attention to what it was doing, so I don't know if it performed better for him or not.  He was certainly able to get it higher than I did.

When I took it down, I was surprised how worn the prop was after only 9 months in the air.  It had a rough texture to it, and anywhere it touched skin left you itching like you'd rolled around in a batt of fiberglass insulation!

Simen

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Re: Sad news: Small wind manufacturer closes its doors, but why??
« Reply #8 on: March 31, 2013, 02:58:11 AM »
RandomJoe;
Did your AirBreeze have the grey blades, or black? According to my supplier, the grey ones had a fault that made them rot in the sun (uv-rays)...

My experience are the same as yours; the spin up in the wind, and just when it was putting some out, it turned around and stopped. But that's all due to turbulence i think.
My supplier has one on a tall tower above his shop at a very open area, and his are steady as a rock, and actually performs 'as advertised'... ;)

I think the small windgen manufacturers demise are due to the lack of emphasis on the placement for a windgen... Customers buy them, and put them up in their backyard on a short mast, and get disappointed. Then they tell their friends that 'it's no good'...

Edit;
That abrupt turning are caused by the small tail in turbulent wind i think. (I read somewhere that the tail was specially designed for conditions onboard a sailboat...) I enlarged my tail a bit, and that wild, sudden turning abated... Though, it didn't produce much more at my turbulent site. ;)
« Last Edit: March 31, 2013, 03:04:21 AM by Simen »
I will accept the rules that you feel necessary to your freedom. I am free, no matter what rules surround me. If I find them tolerable, I tolerate them; if I find them too obnoxious, I break them. I am free because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything I do. - (R. A. Heinlein)

XeonPony

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Re: Sad news: Small wind manufacturer closes its doors, but why??
« Reply #9 on: March 31, 2013, 01:24:56 PM »
from all I have read and the fact I own the older air X series the small units are crap 90% of the time, the success of few are the exception rather then the rule so it was a matter of time befor any micro wind company would die, best is to make one for them selfs
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admin

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Re: Sad news: Small wind manufacturer closes its doors, but why??
« Reply #10 on: April 28, 2013, 03:13:57 PM »
For a typical off-grid home, really, SWWP had only one reliable product IMHO, the smaller Whisper. Supposedly the Whispers have been taken over by a company in India famed for building crappy wind turbines. And Supposedly there is a big warehouse full of spare parts somewhere for installers who need to make repairs....good luck getting anyone to answer the phone, though.

Their tiny Air series has been sold to a company in Colorado nobody has ever heard of. I suspect in terms of units sold, it was always their biggest success. But at mfr rated 25 kWh per month in 12 mph average winds, doesn't help much in anything but tiny installations.

The Skystream (SkyScream) - SWWP certainly burned through a bunch of cash (from GE and others) to make a fairly decent 12 ft wind turbine. But the direct grid tie inverter is up in the nacelle. To use off-grid you have to AC couple.

And, as Chris pointed out .... on short towers in the city, the SkyScream couldn't make enough power to give a decent payback time.

Small wind really shines off the grid.....but AC coupling is complicated and expensive. Local ordinances restricting tall towers usually require lots of red tape, time and money to get a variance around. And PV modules are *so* cheap right now.....

There are lots of SkyStreams on 30-40 ft monopole towers in cities around here, mounted lower than the surrounding buildings.. What were they thinking???? It's like mounting a solar panel in the shade.
Oh, wait....it was all marketing. They got successfully sued, too.

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oztules

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Re: Sad news: Small wind manufacturer closes its doors, but why??
« Reply #11 on: April 28, 2013, 05:16:01 PM »
The internal combustion machine killed off the horse and cart, and sub $1.00/watt solar will kill off the windmills very effectively.

Unless you live down a cul-de-sac, there is no comparison of useful power most of the time. Solar is easily the best for reliability, and sheer grunt all day long... clouds or no clouds. For the price of a tower and good mill and all the ancillary bit to go with it, you could buy 15kw of solar panels, and run a small village. Just 1 hour of sun a day would do most folks.... the other hours it just sits without hurting itself.

On my system, even heavy cloud days will make 5-8kwh, cloudy days, up to 20kwh, and sunny days over 33kwh.... for a $4000 investment compare this to wind power.... it is a sick joke now.

I fail to see why they put up utility mills now, for the million dollars, you could easily make a 2mw solar farm, with no ongoing maintenance... and no silly trackers to maintain.

My two 4m mills have been taken down, and will never go back up. Maintenance is not worth the effort...... and I live in the roaring forties at 40degrees south... poor solar, and good wind..... but my elcheapo solar will do easily over 6mwh each year... year after year with no maintenance at all..... I can't use this much power.

There are still a few horse and buggies about, but not viable unless you count on your heart strings.



......................oztules
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ChrisOlson

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Re: Sad news: Small wind manufacturer closes its doors, but why??
« Reply #12 on: April 28, 2013, 09:00:37 PM »
The internal combustion machine killed off the horse and cart, and sub $1.00/watt solar will kill off the windmills very effectively.

Not for off-grid they won't.  We bumped our solar installed capacity up to 6 kW this past month, and March/April are typically the best solar insolation months of the year for us.  I got the controllers set to shut the turbines down when the system drops into Float.  And I log everything (actually the Classic controllers do it all automatically).  And even so, the turbines ended up carrying 51% of the load for the month of April to-date here.

There's two things wind turbines can do that solar panels can't - make power at night and make power on dense overcast days with snow and rain.  For people who can flip on the grid power switch it's no big deal.  For people who live off-grid it makes the difference between having to run the generator, or not.  And wind turbines are WAAAY cheaper to run than generators.  And way, WAY, WAAAY cheaper than the extra battery power required to get thru several days when the sun don't shine.
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DanB

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Re: Sad news: Small wind manufacturer closes its doors, but why??
« Reply #13 on: April 28, 2013, 09:20:43 PM »
Agreed Chris.  Furthermore... there are lots of places that have really low insolation where solar just doesn't work that well.  But, I have no doubt that $1/watt panels didn't have something to do with putting a dent in SWWP.
If I ever figure out what's in the box then maybe I can think outside of it.

oztules

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Re: Sad news: Small wind manufacturer closes its doors, but why??
« Reply #14 on: April 28, 2013, 10:08:28 PM »
And I agree with Chris too....... but the majority of places will have enough insolation, that dollar for dollar, solar would be the choice. I have never experienced snow, but take your word for it.... Night... absolutely true, ........heavy cloud and rain... not so much. I have studied this at my place, and with heavy clouds seem still to be able to put 500-700w out even during thunder storms, and the gaps between rain, it goes up to much higher. It is now very rare to get less than 7kw for the day..... so if I had a 10kw system, I would never need wind as an adjunct.

However, time will tell if wind power starts to lose favor, and just looking at posts here and other sites, there is a marked downturn in all things wind......or maybe it's just what I have observed, and we all see things through our own prejudice.

It just feels like wind has started the downhill journey.


Dan "But, I have no doubt that $1/watt panels didn't have something to do with putting a dent in SWWP."........ not sure if you really meant that solar did contribute or didn't... it does not read simply to me...... and I'm simple I know.




..........oztules
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ChrisOlson

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Re: Sad news: Small wind manufacturer closes its doors, but why??
« Reply #15 on: April 28, 2013, 10:15:22 PM »
Even in areas where solar insolation is good at certain times of the year, it can be bad at other times.  For the month of December, IIRC without looking at our logs, I think our solar averaged 1.2 kWh per day per kW installed capacity for the month.  The wind turbines produce 20-30 kWh/day.

To have the solar match the wind turbines to meet actual needs to run the house and shop, we would need over 20 kW of installed solar capacity for that time of the year.  Who's going to spend $40 Grand on that with solar panels, wiring, combiners, controllers, breakers and racks when you can put up a $10,000 wind turbine that puts out 20 kWh in a day with no problem?

For anybody who lives off-grid I think a proper balance of systems needs to be looked at, based on needs, location and resources that can be used to generate power.  Never put all your eggs in one basket.

The one off-grid power source that beats both solar and wind power hands down is micro-hydro.
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oztules

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Re: Sad news: Small wind manufacturer closes its doors, but why??
« Reply #16 on: April 28, 2013, 11:50:54 PM »
$40000 for 20kw system.... you shop at the expensive end of town for sure.
 
I can get certified panels for 20kw system for less than $15000, and then  $5000 would be way more than enough for racking and converters..... cheap for that sort of power.

In thinking about controllers, you only need what you can charge with, and just switch out the racks of panels on good days, pull them in parallel on dark days.... you don't need to control the brute force of 20kw at once, just 3 or 4 kw of controller would be enough. ( you would already have this)... just a simple silicon switching of panels to keep the current up to whatever you ask it for.... or if you wanted to go brute force ... you could even use a car pwm speed controller for this (100v 600A etc)

With that sort of power, if you had high ground, you could pump water up hill for hydro storage.... if only using 2-4kw/ hour of power on a good day, the other 10-16 kw could pump a power of water up hill for later.... then you have micro hydro in the poor days to help the bank.... and a whole range of other things to play with.

Just thinking of one of our solar pump installations, it has static head of over 115psi, and can push 30 -  40000 liters/day  over 200 feet  uphill  with about 3kw of panel... 15kw .....150-200000 ltrs would be a huge amount of  water available if you have a hill handy ( ours is  only 2" pipe)... interesting.....50l/mx80mx9.81x.7.... maybe a few kw of output for 8 hrs perhaps for a 3kw system on a good day..... far too much from a 15kw excess system on a good day.

Maybe if you had decent storage, you could store a megaliter over a lot of good days, and be good for the poor ones. It's the only way I could get hydro here... no rivers on the island.




...................oztules
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ChrisOlson

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Re: Sad news: Small wind manufacturer closes its doors, but why??
« Reply #17 on: April 29, 2013, 07:54:34 AM »
$40000 for 20kw system.... you shop at the expensive end of town for sure.

Where we live nothing can be cobbled together, either on or off-grid.  A residence has to meet all the NEC requirements regardless.  When you start wiring up a 20 kW array, have you priced 10 AWG USE-2 cable, MC4 connectors and combiners lately?  Everything has to be UL and CE Listed, rails and equipment grounds and lightning protection all done to Code, etc..  Suddenly your "$1/watt" solar is $2/watt because copper ain't cheap and neither are UL Listed combiners, DC-rated breakers and controllers.  Car PWM?  There's no inspector that I've ever met that will sign off on something like that.

There's only one way to install solar to meet Code and that's the expensive way.  There's some municipalities that have banned rooftop solar altogether because fire departments and insurance companies don't like it.  So let's not start with pie-in-the-sky ideas like pumping water uphill with it for micro-hydro or telling people they can wire it into some batteries with extension cords and toggle switches.  That's akin to telling somebody they can put a wind turbine on a 20 foot telephone pole and it's going to power their whole house.
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arc

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Re: Sad news: Small wind manufacturer closes its doors, but why??
« Reply #18 on: April 29, 2013, 05:04:37 PM »
Sad news for their employees and folks who purchased their products but I think there is more to this than just the market, from what I can tell the top brass is sitting pretty while investors, customers and workers got the shaft. I've worked for similar sized corporations (not related to wind power) where the original mission statement got lost and what followed was a scramble to line management's pockets and everyone/ everything else be dam#ed.
Don't know if this is the case here but that's what it smells like from what I've heard/read about this company.

AE's got a long tough road ahead but fortunately there are pioneers out there that will make it through the up and downs and hopefully the world will be a better place for it.

Arc out

oztules

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Re: Sad news: Small wind manufacturer closes its doors, but why??
« Reply #19 on: April 29, 2013, 06:07:56 PM »
Gosh, now code means expensive.

"There's only one way to install solar to meet Code and that's the expensive way."

The code you refer to is similar to what is  in operation here as well. They are minimum standards thats all.

They do not tell you how to design a system, they do not tell you what you must buy, they do not help you in any way to design a system. They are minimum standard guidelines. You may do anything you like within those guidelines.

CE and UL listed .... whats your point.
"The basic standard used to investigate products in this category is UL 1741, "Inverters, Converters, Controllers and Interconnection System Equipment for Use with Distributed Energy Resources." ( from UL) Notice, they don't test the equipment for how it works in most instances, but for safety... simply safety

That does not mean expensive.

UL: panels for 70c/watt in quantity.... where is expensive. UL inverter 6000w cont 18000 watt surge, capable of reverse grid tie , ups operation inverter battery charging all incorporated for less then 800 dollars delivered to an island in the middle of no place weighing over 50kg........................ where is expensive.... even your inverter is not  capable of that.

"When you start wiring up a 20 kW array, have you priced 10 AWG USE-2 cable, MC4 connectors and combiners lately"
Yes, the MC4 are 100 pair for $80 (TUV cert)  but the panels come with them anyway...  you don't need that many more.

Combiners?? I think you mean MC4 parallel plugs....... wouldn't use them. Series the array up to 400vdc-500vdc.

Why use 10 awg cable? thats poor.   Go Low Voltage (not Extra Low Voltage), and run solar grid tie cable for about  2 dollars/meter . where is the big dollars in this?... oh  but your inverter is not capable of reverse grid tie  is it?..... another buying choice that may be overhauled soon.

Aluminium rails hardly big deal 100 dollars/kw kits.

Use grid tie inverters for the inter-tie ( last bought 18000 watts for 1000 inc shipping... 12x1.5kw about 40kg each) UL CEC TUV etc.

Where is the extra 20 grand.

You would have a better day time system with this technology. All loads driven by the grid tie inverters, battery charging done by the main inverter as required. If you want to go glitz, use the SMA inverters with the frequency shift technology, then you need no other gear, as it does it all... but a bit more expense where cheaper inverter like mine with a plc to control switching in of the grid ties will do the same.

All easy to buy, install and do to code.... and radically different to your system. There is obviously more than only one way to wire to code.."There's only one way to install solar to meet Code and that's the expensive way." ......... thats as stupid as it gets.

The code is a safety framework, it does not control design, only sets the standard that may not be gone below. It is not a shopping list, but does prescribe what are the minimum standards for the products you may chose ( UL etc). It needs to use UL listed goods so that the purveyors of the code don't need to test each item in the system for safety..... NOT performance.

It will give you min wire size. Insulation parameters for the voltage envisaged. But in reality if you use UL parts, it is simple and minimum wiring sizes for UL cable with UL fittings and insulation...... well  your good to go get the electrician to wire it you as you want. Then just the  MEN earth system, and then lightning protection... which is fairly adumbrate over here and usually just means MOV's and a few other bits.

Code does not mean expensive.. it means safe. Your going to provide everything anyway, so just keep with UL products, and stay within the code... which with the Chinese help, is not expensive. A huge amount  of their gear is certified now.

Solar in quantity is in the 70 cent range/watt.

Cheap, does not mean cobbled together. Thats just stupid.

"Car PWM?  There's no inspector that I've ever met that will sign off on something like that."....have you ever asked?
Car PWM is very likely certified now, as they are in fork lifts and vehicles that connect to the grid for charging.

Because of their control of a vehicle, I would think UL would be mandatory over there as here.So if they are UL, and performing high power DC switching, and the wiring is to code size and installation, why would he not pass it. They are not involved in performance  just safety.... mostly the same as UL.
UL does not mean expensive, just that someone had it tested and it passed the  safety tests.

"So let's not start with pie-in-the-sky ideas like pumping water uphill with it for micro-hydro"

Well that was just a passing thought, but in reality  we have that in place. We use the 50000ltrs/day at 110psi or so just to water cows, If we had no cows, we could bung on a turbine and be good to go.... it it is reality now..... it is not the pie in the sky ......it's here, I have just not thought to put a turbine on it.... where is the big deal.

Over there in your snow cave, I  can see freezing up would be the problem, but here it would be fine. We are moving towards 500000 liter storage soon, and that could certainly have a useful turbine attached as an after thought... Some weeks there are no cows, so fill the dam.......but there is no house within 5kms.... so that makes it not practical, but certainly not pie in the sky. It could be done today, and if we had 15kw spare capacity, near the house with a hill, it would be super worth while. No hill close by here, but other folks may have.... not pie in the sky, it is done commercially.

"or telling people they can wire it into some batteries with extension cords and toggle switches.".. your words not mine.

Your so one eyed that your system is the only system (even though it changes to the newest best  system on a monthly basis), and the only sensible way of doing things, you lose sight of what is really happening. Your lack of electronics probably hinders you having scope for more thoughtful approaches to problems as you can only see whats in front of you to buy from the purveyors of goodies you know.... hence all your half baked systems to date, I dream up of how it might work, and find products to make it happen ( if I don't build a prototype first)

Your latest system is very nice and looks the goods....... but not what I would aspire to. Reverse grid tie is a better more flexible  way to go. You will probably get there sooner or later when one of your favorite companies offers the reverse grid tie in their product, and you'll get one and come bouncing in here telling us it the latest great thing for load shedding, power surges, relieving the stress off the inverter most of the day, save starting the backup for excessive power usage etc...

I reject your critique out of hand, as light on knowledge, big on prejudice. UL does not mean better, only that it passes minimum standards as tested at the United Laboratories. Code just means doing it to standard.. nothing extra expensive with that.. where is the extra $20000 if you have any idea of what is required and what is needed.


..............oztules

Flinders Island Australia

ChrisOlson

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Re: Sad news: Small wind manufacturer closes its doors, but why??
« Reply #20 on: April 29, 2013, 08:16:53 PM »
I reject your critique out of hand, as light on knowledge, big on prejudice.

oz - whatever   ::)

When the inspector came to sign off on our latest solar installation I got wrote up on two infractions under NEC 690.43 and UL2703 because the racks weren't properly labeled for EGC, I didn't put bonding clips on the EGC lugs and and the EGC was in a separate raceway from the power conductors.  It was a $300 mistake.

So yeah, I guess I'm stupid, don't know anything, and our off-grid power system is half baked.

But at least I know what a solar combiner is.

And what's more I got all the stuff from a certified solar installer and he gave me everything I needed to meet Code with the installation.  The panel mid and end clamps all had bonding clips on them.  But the EGC lugs didn't because they mounted to the rails with a 1/4" stainless steel bolt to a hole I had to drill in the rails for them.

So a certified solar installer tells me it's legal, the state certified inspector comes and it's not legal.  And what the inspector says goes.


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Chris
« Last Edit: April 30, 2013, 12:01:00 AM by ChrisOlson »

oztules

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Re: Sad news: Small wind manufacturer closes its doors, but why??
« Reply #21 on: April 29, 2013, 09:50:22 PM »
"And what the inspector says goes."

Absolutely true....  my experience with electricians and solar "experts" has led me to believe they should all be "certified".. the inspector is the only one to take notice of.

"So yeah, I guess I'm stupid, don't know anything, and our off-grid power system is half baked."..  NO...... your latest effort is pretty much spot on, but it took a lot of iterations to get it there... even with all your certified friends good advise. 

I took the time out to find out what it is you folks call a combiner box............ exciting stuff.


Perhaps we should leave it here... we are way off thread by now.... surprised we haven't been guillotined.




........................oztules
« Last Edit: April 29, 2013, 10:06:52 PM by oztules »
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ChrisOlson

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Re: Sad news: Small wind manufacturer closes its doors, but why??
« Reply #22 on: April 29, 2013, 10:15:26 PM »
Absolutely true....  my experience with electricians and solar "experts" has led me to believe they should all be "certified".. the inspector is the only one to take notice of.

Yeah well, that's what I said.  That state certified inspector added $1,300 in cost to our latest what was supposed to be a $2,000 project.  Have to get a building permit these days to even install solar panels, and that means automatic inspection.  Off-grid or not.  Can't even get insurance on the house if it's not inspected.  And even if you do have insurance and there's a fire and the Fire Chief determines it was caused by something electrical that was installed and not inspected, the insurance will not cover it.

We bought all top-of-line equipment for our latest 1.5 kW addition to our solar power and the total cost of the project was $3,300 from the building permit to the final state inspection.  And I did all the installation work myself.  They will not even pass solar panels mounted directly to wood racks anymore like we used to do in the old days.  They will condemn it and either order it be torn down or fix it.
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Chris

bart

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Re: Sad news: Small wind manufacturer closes its doors, but why??
« Reply #23 on: April 29, 2013, 10:46:32 PM »
   In my search to find out what the heck ECG is (Equipment Grounding Conductor), punched NEC 690.43 in google and first up is this PDF of a guy wondering if it is even possible to ground the frame of a solar panel for any length of time and if it really necessary to begin with. Interesting anyway.
   http://www.nmsu.edu/~tdi/pdf-resources/A%20Critical%20Look%20at%20PV%20Module%20Grounding2.pdf

Property Insurance. Yeah, they may want it inspected in order to cover it, but they don't care about the repairs.
 My father had a small fire under his mobile home (the only time I will praise Quest water tubing, melted, put fire out) and the adjusters were trying to get me to get a "Home Handy Man" for repairs. I said no, will do it myself and that was fine with them.
   They just wanted cheap.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2013, 10:55:08 PM by bart »

ChrisOlson

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Re: Sad news: Small wind manufacturer closes its doors, but why??
« Reply #24 on: April 29, 2013, 11:38:18 PM »
   In my search to find out what the heck ECG is (Equipment Grounding Conductor), punched NEC 690.43 in google and first up is this PDF of a guy wondering if it is even possible to ground the frame of a solar panel for any length of time and if it really necessary to begin with. Interesting anyway.
   http://www.nmsu.edu/~tdi/pdf-resources/A%20Critical%20Look%20at%20PV%20Module%20Grounding2.pdf

Yeah, sorry - I was typing "ECG" instead of "EGC".  I used bare 6 AWG for the EGC but I tie-wrapped it to the conduit that comes from the raceways in the rails to the combiner, then bonded it to the equipment grounding bar in the combiner.  The inspector went into a coma over it - said it has to be in the same conduit as the power conductors.  I had to tear the whole works out and put in bigger conduit because that was the second problem - too many conductors in too small of a conduit once I put the EGC in there with them.

And then the other problem was those stainless steel bonding clips on the EGC lugs.  They got "biter teeth" in them that bites thru the anodizing on the aluminum and provides a positive bond.  You put dielectric grease in there and then tighten it up to 12 lb-ft of torque which is the proper tightness to get it "bite" thru the anodizing.

It's not even legal to run a ground wire to a panel frame anymore.  But the act of drilling a hole thru a mounting rail and attaching the EGC lug with a stainless steel bolt is not considered legal either, even with a stainless steel "wiz nut".  The inspector said the bolt might not be in positive contact with the aluminum of the rail.

It was a fiasco because once you tighten up stainless steel hardware the threads gall and it's impossible to get it apart again.  So I had to cut the EGC lugs off the rails, and install new hardware and bonding clips.

And then the real boner - if your installation doesn't pass inspection the first time you get charged a $300 fee to have it re-inspected.  But that's still cheaper than somebody who's on-grid.  Mandatory state inspection for on-grid solar and that inspection costs $1,000 up front, and another $1,000 the second time if it don't pass the first time.
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Chris
« Last Edit: April 30, 2013, 12:02:24 AM by ChrisOlson »

smidy

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Re: Sad news: Small wind manufacturer closes its doors, but why??
« Reply #25 on: April 30, 2013, 12:38:53 PM »
I sit here and my mouth is wide open....where are the us going....the no 1 contry on the erth where you can do what you want and do it yourself...we up here in northen europe togth we where controled to insanity, but i think you (the us) have taken the 1 place in the contest "you have no comon sence, i (gov) will deside what you can and dont". ilegal to mount solar on wood racks??? insane! up here it is comon with wood electric poles, but of course it is msm (main stream media) that give us the wrong picture that it also is comon in the us, because if you arent alowed to have solar on wood racks, no way in universe, you can have hi voltage hanging in wooden poles...time to change the old "born free, taxed to death" to "born controled, controled to death". but dont be sad, where not long behind... ;D
Aland islands in the Baltic Sea

ChrisOlson

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Re: Sad news: Small wind manufacturer closes its doors, but why??
« Reply #26 on: April 30, 2013, 12:53:04 PM »
Don't complain to me.  I hate 'em.  Can't even put up a wind turbine tower anymore in this county without an engineering stamp on the tower and a conditional use permit.  Some places even now require that the turbine itself be UL Listed and you have to apply for a variance for an off-grid wind turbine.

And yet there's literally hundreds of old Aeromotor water pumping windmills scattered around the countryside here.  Just about every farmstead has one and some of them, including the one we got, still work and have been pumping water for over 80 years.  There wasn't nobody running about back then inspecting everything, but there is today.

Don't ask me how it got that way.  I didn't vote for any of 'em.
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XeonPony

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Re: Sad news: Small wind manufacturer closes its doors, but why??
« Reply #27 on: April 30, 2013, 01:56:45 PM »
It got that way due to the idiot masses voting for the most convinsing lier prommising to keep them safe and like a mushroom, and the lack of natural selection too!

Thankfully not that retarded here "yet"
Ignorance is not bliss, You may not know there is a semie behind you but you'll still be a hood ornimant!

Nothing fails like prayer, Two hands clasped in work will achieve more in a minute then a billion will in a melenia in prayer. In other words go out and do some real good by helping!

oztules

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Re: Sad news: Small wind manufacturer closes its doors, but why??
« Reply #28 on: April 30, 2013, 05:33:19 PM »
Were trying desperately to jump over the cliff with the Americans.... won't be too far behind I'm afraid.

I think it is industry associations that come up with this crap, to protect themselves from competition, and raise the cost of getting into the business. Over here it is the CEC (Clean Energy Council) driven by industry that is trying to run the whole RE show, and push out anyone not paid up to their association.
The Govt legitimized them by putting them basically in charge of solar rooftop roll out. They made the rules whereupon passing their hurdles, the Govt forked out the bonus money...... if you control the money, you got the power...... and the Govt would see no comeback if something went wrong.

Up until I last looked, it is still not a requirement that panels be earthed..... if you use galvanically isolated inverters. ....... but I can see why they do need earthing if you use the  non isolated (light ) types....... capacitive effects of the ripple will charge the frames if insulated.

Last I looked, painted or treated timber was still an option.... probably gone too now.

Earthing insulated frames makes more problems than it can possibly solve, but I suspect it is a uniformity thing that makes it easier for inspectors... they don't have to think for themselves. Once upon a time they had guidelines, and could exercise some common sense..... those days are nearly gone...... luckily so will I be.

I have lived through the best times mankind has seen in the history of the world, that won't be coming back again..... be happy to go.



......................oztules
Flinders Island Australia

ChrisOlson

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Re: Sad news: Small wind manufacturer closes its doors, but why??
« Reply #29 on: May 01, 2013, 07:22:02 PM »
There's people that know people that know other people who know what politicians got their hands in whose pockets.  The utility company don't like solar or wind grid-tied because there's a Federal mandate that they have to pay average retail price for electricity from somebody who has it.  So they get around that by charging a $47.50/month net-metering fee.  With electricity at .15 cents/kWh that means the utility gets the first 317 kWh generated by a grid-tie setup totally free because they do nothing to provide the equipment for it - the customer has to buy the meter, the socket, install the disconnect, etc..

So then the utility company sends out the April newsletter and says that anybody that installs solar or wind and generates their own power is a "burden" on other members because it causes their rates to go up.

This is where the people that know people that know other people who know what politicians got their hands in whose pockets comes in.  They pull the right strings and tell the Board, "hey - just pass a new ordinance that outlaws this crap so we don't have to deal with it and we can get our bonuses."
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fabricator

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Re: Sad news: Small wind manufacturer closes its doors, but why??
« Reply #30 on: May 02, 2013, 06:29:04 PM »
And that is why grid tie is a total ripoff, you will NEVER beat the Borg at their own game, they invented electrickery.
I aint skeerd of nuthin.......Holy Crap! What was that!!!!!
11 Miles east of Lake Michigan, Ottawa County, Robinson township, (home of the defacto residential wind ban) Michigan, USA.

ChrisOlson

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Re: Sad news: Small wind manufacturer closes its doors, but why??
« Reply #31 on: February 23, 2014, 09:08:35 PM »
And I agree with Chris too....... but the majority of places will have enough insolation, that dollar for dollar, solar would be the choice. I have never experienced snow, but take your word for it....

Really old thread.  Hope you're still around and kickin' there oz.  Too bad you have never experienced snow.  This is a Wisconsin stop sign - blob of snow on a stick



I got data now that I didn't have before.  The below graphs show our loads for December and January vs PV output (or input to the system).  We installed 6.75 kW solar - I think it was like Sept when we put in the last 750 watts of panels.





There's a few days that increasing the solar capacity by 296% to 20 kW installed capacity would work.  But the fact is, for just a fraction of what it costs to throw 13,250 watts more installed solar capacity at the problem, I can put up a wind turbine that produces 10x plus what that extra 13,250 watts of solar capacity will produce on the days when it is needed the most.

We have changed our system so the solar has priority over wind.  The wind turbine is set a few tenths of a volt below the charge stages and it helps the solar to get there.  But then it cuts out and shuts down and lets the solar take it from there so the solar produces the maximum it can and the wind shuts down to save wear and tear on machinery.  It has worked very well.  Just thought I'd show you this since I now have a way to show it.  I remembered this thread when we were talking about this.  Solar alone is not the answer for off-gridders unless they live in the tropics down by Missouri or something.  And even then I think going with solar alone would be questionable.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2014, 09:14:25 PM by ChrisOlson »

cardamon

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Re: Sad news: Small wind manufacturer closes its doors, but why??
« Reply #32 on: February 24, 2014, 12:07:00 AM »
Chris, the solar vs wind decision for off griders is interesting and I am debating it with myself right now.  I am putting up 3KW of Pv this summer and am unsure if I will even put my 1KW turbine back up.  I am in central NY.  I will be reconfiguring my system so the turbine will need $1500 in controls and other stuff to get it working with the new system.  I am not sure if it is worth it, but Ill have to get data from the new array to know for sure. 

If you dont mind me critiquing your argument, one thing I didnt find quite fair was that you talked about PV being real expensive to do right and up to code.  Wouldn't the same apply to wind?  Perhaps even worse due to towers and engineers being involved?  Also to be fair we would have to figure in system lifespan and maintenance not just initial capital cost. 

Do you have monthly total energy figures for you Pv and your wind?