Author Topic: Ft/Lbs. Of Torque To Bolts For Wincharger Tower?  (Read 5856 times)

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doubledipsoon

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Ft/Lbs. Of Torque To Bolts For Wincharger Tower?
« on: May 28, 2013, 10:28:02 PM »
I purchased a 1952 Wincharger Tower, the three-legged self-supporting type. The diagonal straps, 1" X 1/8", were warped and very crooked (picture #1). I have replaced them with 1" X 1" angle iron which should tighten it up nicely (picture #2). After blowing $175.00 on galvanized nuts and bolts, I'm ready to fasten. The 4 large bolts that fasten each leg are 3/8" x 1", while the cross member bolts are 5/16" X 1". Anybody out there in WindGeneratorTowerLand know what how many ft/lbs. of torque would be recommended for the bolts? I'm used lock washers and don't want to deal with Loctite. I'm old school.....

Frank S

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Re: Ft/Lbs. Of Torque To Bolts For Wincharger Tower?
« Reply #1 on: May 28, 2013, 11:23:12 PM »
You failed to mention what grade of bolts & nuts you are using
 However the torque ranges for general fasteners 5/16" 18 TPI 12ftlb for grades 0-1-2 to 17 ftlb for grade 3
17ftlb for gr 5  to 25ft lb for gr 8  for ASTM A307 waxed 4ftlb galv 9 ft lb plain 7 ftlb
  For ASM A449/ SAE Gr 5 waxed 9 galv 22 plain 17
ASTM A193 B& 5/16" 18 TPI waxed 11 galv 27 plain 21
 ASTM A354-BD / SAE Gr 8 lubricated 12 plain 25
* BOLT TORQUE SPECS.pdf (50.51 kB - downloaded 7883 times.)
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doubledipsoon

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Re: Ft/Lbs. Of Torque To Bolts For Wincharger Tower?
« Reply #2 on: May 29, 2013, 12:15:18 AM »
Ace Hardware didn't have galvanized hex bolts, nor did Orchard Supply. I did find some at Lowes and, to be frank, wasn't too concerned about the grade. I've used overkill my whole life and found it was "overkill". Besides I heard that using harder bolts can work against you in fastening towers, as the metal can be too brittle. Besides if you could have seen the rusty bolts holding together the tower under a 4 bladed Wincharger, you probably wouldn't think it would be an issue. I couldn't find any "grade" designation of the box (of 100) or the bolt head, other than "BL". There is an "H# 811572" on the box, and a "ASTM A153" notation. All according to my skeptical view of U.S. manufacturing, and accompanying nonlabeling was another infamous notation: "Packaged in the U.S. using parts manufactured in one or more of the following counties:Taiwan, China, Canada, USA, Korea.....whatever the hell that means.......

Frank S

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Re: Ft/Lbs. Of Torque To Bolts For Wincharger Tower?
« Reply #3 on: May 29, 2013, 01:20:50 AM »
The ASTM A153 pertains to the coating standard meaning hot dip  zinc galvanize
 And you are correct about having  fasteners that are too hard or brittle can work against you  For this reason many structural engineered metal structures use grades no higher than ASTM A325 which has larger heads and nuts to yield more clamping surface area, light and thin structures a lot of times simply use SAE grade 3 and sometimes standard SAE grade 5 with flat washers for the higher end strengths.
  When I was in Kuwait I called out more than a few consultants and several PE's for their over specifying fasteners based on their tensile strengths alone while ignoring fatigue life on structures with high torsional stresses or writing in a requirement for 10 times more fasteners than necessary because all they were doing was copy pasting without actually reading the  many alternative often times more relevant specs available.
 "[  All according to my skeptical view of U.S. manufacturing, and accompanying nonlabeling was another infamous notation: "Packaged in the U.S. using parts manufactured in one or more of the following counties:Taiwan, China, Canada, USA, Korea.....whatever the hell that means.......]"
 That simply means that nothing is made where you may think it is made 
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doubledipsoon

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Re: Ft/Lbs. Of Torque To Bolts For Wincharger Tower?
« Reply #4 on: May 29, 2013, 02:09:14 AM »
Thanks for your followup- I did figure out what the ASTM A153 means, ala the galvanizing coating, and since there are no "radial lines" on the heads of the hex bolts, I'm assuming that they are "grade 2", which may be a tad bit too "soft" for my application. I also noted that when I received the old nuts and bolts, they were larger square heads, alluding to your assertion about using lower grades but larger surface areas. Another catch 22 that I just realized is that the legs on the Wincharger tower are too narrow on the insides to attach a socket over the bolt head- instead, I think they put the square head on the inside, and having the leg side walls "hold" the head inplace, while tightening the lockwasher/nut on the outside of the leg, if you know what I mean........Anyway, since I have to replace the hex nuts for the legs, because I can't attach a socket to them (not enough room in the inner leg area), then I'll probably go with a medium carbon content grade 3 "square" head bolt in a square head, if they still make them.........Maybe Fastenall has them.........I love these old towers and their unexpected contingencies- they're like huge erector sets for adults, and a hellava lot cheaper than Rohn SSVs....Am I getting anywhere on this, or is it all in my head? 

Frank S

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Re: Ft/Lbs. Of Torque To Bolts For Wincharger Tower?
« Reply #5 on: May 29, 2013, 03:54:35 AM »
You should still be able to get the sq nuts with no problem

 I don't see you as being over your head at all
 
 Speaking of erector sets one year for Christmas my Grand pa 2 of my Uncles and my dad got together and bought all of us boys the young engineer erector sets the ones with a million girders and a huge box of brass pulleys. We all decided to pool the whole lot together and build a monster tower crane but before doing so we dipped our complete sets in thinned down paint of different colors so we would know whose parts were whose. Pretty amassing what you can build with 6 of those sets pooled together.
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doubledipsoon

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Re: Ft/Lbs. Of Torque To Bolts For Wincharger Tower?
« Reply #6 on: May 29, 2013, 10:38:50 AM »
Yeah, I had a medium sized Erector Set, circa Christmas 1960, and wanted to make a robot to scare the little girls down the street. Never pulled it off, as my mini-bike go-cart days kicked in with a vengeance.........I found some square head bolt off Ebay. They didn't mention the "grade". Getting back to grade strength, do you think that grade 3 would do? The grade of my "unmarked" bolts are still a mystery. When I return to Lowes I'll ask them, but I'm sure they won't know- they just "work there" if you know what I mean...

dnix71

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Re: Ft/Lbs. Of Torque To Bolts For Wincharger Tower?
« Reply #7 on: May 29, 2013, 01:42:29 PM »
Square nuts are used in audio/compter racks. Those have clips to snap in the square holes that replace threaded holes.
http://www.stayonline.com/snap-in-cage-nuts.aspx


Amazon lists quite a few different square head bolts. The ones at the top are used in automobile battery clamps. They resist corrosion, but are not high strength. They are either grade 3 or 5.
http://www.amazon.com/s?ie=UTF8&page=1&rh=n%3A16409661

Fastenel sells grade 8 square head bolts. http://www.fastenal.com/web/products/details/0169019;jsessionid=S6J6Rm9f2zyv7pvttwfKQ1j1wHyvjLtK7rzr7Wn0TybfmSRR0g7V!-399261850!423933937

Fastenel even sells stainless steel square nuts. I wouldn't use stainless bolts and nuts together, though because stainless tends to weld itself under stress. You would not be able to dissasemble things readily if you did this.
http://www.fastenal.com/web/products/fasteners/nuts/square-nuts/_/Navigation?term=&termca=&termpx=&sortby=webrank&sortdir=descending&searchmode=productSearch&rfqXref=&rfqKeyword=&rfqId=&rfqLineId=&r=~|categoryl1:%22600000%20Fasteners%22|~%20~|categoryl2:%22600072%20Nuts%22|~%20~|categoryl3:%22600086%20Square%20Nuts%22|~%20~|sattr02:^%22Stainless%20Steel%22$|~
« Last Edit: May 29, 2013, 01:47:40 PM by dnix71 »

Mary B

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Re: Ft/Lbs. Of Torque To Bolts For Wincharger Tower?
« Reply #8 on: May 29, 2013, 03:30:42 PM »
I use all stainless fasteners on antennas for my ham gear with no welding problems. Dab of antisieze is all it takes.

Frank S

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Re: Ft/Lbs. Of Torque To Bolts For Wincharger Tower?
« Reply #9 on: May 29, 2013, 04:09:14 PM »
I don't think I would be overly concerned if the bolts were grade 2 or grade 3, the plain heads tell me they are probably mud & fat bolts bordering on possibly grade 2 at their highest. But in all probability nothing more than grade 1
 Here is something to think about though millions of plain non marked square head bolts have been used by power companies to mount hardware on utility poles for 100 years and millions of water windmills all over the world are held together by whatever happened to be available.
 Also square head and hex head bolts are going to use the same wrench size 1/2" for 5/16' and 9/16' for 3/8"  bolts so I not seeing the advantage of changing out for square head except for eye candy
 
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doubledipsoon

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Re: Ft/Lbs. Of Torque To Bolts For Wincharger Tower?
« Reply #10 on: May 29, 2013, 08:54:39 PM »
Yeah, I just talked to an outfit that sells big time on Ebay, selling bolts etc. I asked him what grade they are, he said grade 2. I asked if he could get grade 3, he said no, in fact he had never seen a 3/8" in grade 3. Then I asked him how much his grade 2 square head bolts would cost for 100, and he said I had to buy 1000.............Ok, folks, tell me the fairytale about the global economy.

Frank S

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Re: Ft/Lbs. Of Torque To Bolts For Wincharger Tower?
« Reply #11 on: May 29, 2013, 09:40:51 PM »
There are several bot supply houses around here, but if you don't have a charge account with some of them they have a $100.00 to $300.00 minimum purchase. they also offer the lowest prices per box
 One of them has a $ 50.00 minimum invoice even if you have a charge account
 I try to configure any purchases that I may have to be much larger than a minimum.. or I buy at the other places that do not have a minimum like Arrow bolt or National bolt supply
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doubledipsoon

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Re: Ft/Lbs. Of Torque To Bolts For Wincharger Tower?
« Reply #12 on: May 30, 2013, 10:29:42 PM »
I just got back from a 18 mile round trip on a wild goose chase for some galvanized square nuts & head bolts. I was on my electric bike which should add to the absurdity of the alternative energy situation around these parts. Lowes didn't have any, Home depot never even heard of them, and Orchard Supply didn't even have any galvanized of either. I peddled on,  to save my battery and made it to Fastenal. He said I was the first to even ask for them. His world-widewebsite didn't have any either. Now I'm not losing faith in our great country and its new economic order. I just have to keep reminding myself that "making things" has become obsolete, unless you're living in China....OK, here goes Arrow Bolt and National Bolt Supply...more to come on this- I promise.

doubledipsoon

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Re: Ft/Lbs. Of Torque To Bolts For Wincharger Tower?
« Reply #13 on: June 04, 2013, 10:06:02 AM »
A great ending to this sad story- I got some galvanized grade 2 square nuts off Ebay ($8.50 for 25 @ 3/8" X 16) and I will put the nuts on the inside of the leg, and have the hex bolt on the outside of the leg. So for any of you looking to get square-headed bolts, forget it, unless you want to pay $100 + for 1500 off Ebay. No bolt distributors have then, at least not any of the ones recommended by you guys. Hey, Aermotor doesn't even carry them anynore ("We've gone over to hex bolts") So there you have it.

equiluxe

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Re: Ft/Lbs. Of Torque To Bolts For Wincharger Tower?
« Reply #14 on: June 09, 2013, 11:51:45 AM »
On that sort of structure and with unknown bolt types I would just tighten them to a point where you just feel them yield at that point they will not work loose but you would not want to reuse them in the future.

dnix71

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Re: Ft/Lbs. Of Torque To Bolts For Wincharger Tower?
« Reply #15 on: June 09, 2013, 10:56:32 PM »
McMaster has grade 5 square bolts in lots of sizes. 120k psi tensile strength.

http://www.mcmaster.com/#specialty-bolts/=n4j16v