Author Topic: Connecting Inverter with Bonded Neutral to house panel with same ?  (Read 7674 times)

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ashenash

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Hi all, I'm a long-term reader and a first-time poster to this excellent board. I knew I could get good answers here.

I have a Wagan Proline (5000 watt 120 volt 42 amp) inverter on my offgrid solar w/batteries system. I would like to connect via an interlock or manual transfer switch to my house breaker panel (GE Gold Load Center 20 circuit)
The inverter has hardwire connections for house distributed wiring and the manual states "neutral bonded to ground internally per code"
The house main panel has neutral bonded to ground per code.

Knowing that there should only be one place where the neutral and ground are bonded, I was stumped.

So I called Wagan and the lead tech told me "no problem just connect like this"
1. Wire the inverter neutral straight thru/no breaker to the panel neutral
2. Wire the inverter ground straight thru/no breaker to the panel ground
3. Wire the inverter hot to a 50 amp breaker in the panel
4 Ground to earth the inverter chassis (house panel has water pipe ground)
5 For the 20' run use 10/2 with ground romex or marine grade


When I asked about the multiple neutral/ ground bonds he said "No problem, there really is no neutral on 120v single phase inverters we just call it that"

So, does all this add up to good advice ? Just wire into the panel , breaking only the hot wire ? And grounding the inverter chassis to earth ?

I want to believe this guy, he seems very knowledgeable . Just want to make sure I asked the right questions.

I am ready to lose the extension cords and get this wired up. I can handle the connections safely but will use a pro if it gets more complicated
Thanks in advance for your input

altosack

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Re: Connecting Inverter with Bonded Neutral to house panel with same ?
« Reply #1 on: August 29, 2013, 04:15:27 PM »
"No problem, there really is no neutral on 120v single phase inverters we just call it that"

??? - If he said this, it leads me to believe that he doesn't know what he's talking about, or at least doesn't get the lingo.

The problem with inverters bonding the neutral to ground is that there are (3) general possibilities of how inverters are used:

1 - Portable, with no ground (it doesn't matter if neutral is tied to ground if it doesn't exist)
2 - Portable, with ground (there's no panel, so neutral should be tied to ground in the inverter)
3 - hard-wired, with ground (there's a panel, so the tie should be in there, and the inverter shouldn't do it)

The problem is that inverter manufacturers like to sell an inverter that works for all possibilities, but they can't satisfy all criteria unless they allow you to change the bonding status. The authorities didn't like that, so they made it be internal. For inverter manufacturers, it's safer for them to bond it if the inverter can be portable, because it's better to have 2 bonds than none.

The practice of having only one route from neutral to ground is more about when you have a sub-panel pretty far from the main panel, but not far enough to have its own separate ground.  In that case, if you bond in the sub-panel, your ground wire back to the main panel will then act as a parallel neutral conductor; since it's often bare, and not expected to be carrying current, that's a problem.

Assuming that your inverter is in very close proximity to the main panel, I would just wire it like he says, and make sure to use a ground wire from the inverter to the panel that has green insulation the whole length, so if it does end up carrying neutral current (and it will), it's not such a big deal. I believe that the AHJ should be okay with this, but you can never tell; often, they don't want to admit when they don't understand something, and will disallow it if it is not verbatim with the code.

There is another potential problem with your setup. I assume the main panel is 120/240, and you plan on putting in some kind of switch to be able to use both legs in the main panel, so all 120V circuits will be active. If so, you need to make sure there aren't any multi-wire branch circuits, or that neutral can become overloaded without tripping the breaker(s). In a multi-wire branch circuit, one 4-wire cable has leg 1 hot, leg 2 hot, (1) neutral, and ground. Normally, the two hot legs are out-of-phase, so the neutral will only see the difference between the two circuits. However, if they are in phase, it will see the addition, which may be up to double what it is rated for. You also need to make doubly-sure that it's not possible for that switch to be active at the same time as the grid; I'm pretty sure you will have more trouble with the AHJ on this one, and I'm not aware of off-the-shelf hardware that will do this.

altosack

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Re: Connecting Inverter with Bonded Neutral to house panel with same ?
« Reply #2 on: August 29, 2013, 04:36:20 PM »
P.S.: I tried to edit my post, but it didn't work.  You can ignore that last sentence; as long as the switch is on the inverter side of the transfer switch, there should be no problem.

altosack

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Re: Connecting Inverter with Bonded Neutral to house panel with same ?
« Reply #3 on: August 29, 2013, 05:09:52 PM »
Hmmm... I didn't read your initial post closely enough about the inverter grounding he recommended.

Since I assume you want to be able to run the off-grid system separately, it must have its own ground, and you don't need a ground wire connecting the two.  Since it's not there, it will of course not be carrying any current; problem solved.  Sometimes I'm pretty good at solving problems that don't exist !

dnix71

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Re: Connecting Inverter with Bonded Neutral to house panel with same ?
« Reply #4 on: August 29, 2013, 06:06:58 PM »
The only thing that bothers me on this is the statement that the Wagan doesn't have a neutral. The quick way to test is to get a volt meter, ground the inverter ground to a copper water pipe, plug something an the inverter outlet and power it up. On the other half of the same duplex measure voltage from the (left) fat side of the outlet to ground and then from the (right) slim side to ground. Left to ground should be zero or maybe a few volts depending on the quality of the ground and the inductance
or capacitance of what is powered up. Right to ground should be 120v. If you get 60v and 60v split then you CANNOT hook your Wagan up to the house wiring.
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cardamon

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Re: Connecting Inverter with Bonded Neutral to house panel with same ?
« Reply #5 on: September 04, 2013, 01:05:58 AM »
The correct way in terms of the NEC would be to remove the main bonding jumper from you house panel and run separate neutrals and grounds as the tech said between the inverter and the panel.  Your grounding electrodes should go to your inverter.  there is no neutral, but you may have a grounded conductor and you will only energize half of your panel as you only have one hot leg.