Author Topic: 12V/10-15A charge controller inexpensive, reccomends?  (Read 8173 times)

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madlabs

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12V/10-15A charge controller inexpensive, reccomends?
« on: November 06, 2013, 06:22:07 PM »
Hey All,

So I built a cool new PV mount/wood shed/wood fired heater shelter/ thang for my hillbilly hot tub. Looks nice and I think it'll hold about a 1/2 cord of firewood. I'm going to upgrade the current electronics and am going to break down and put a battery out there, prolly two 6V, kinda beat up golf cart batteries.

Anyway, I need a decent but cheap as I can get charge controller for 155 watts worth of panels. It won't be worked hard, as the only time there is any load to speak of is when the pump runs and it only pulls 6 amps or so. The pump only runs if the sun is shining so it won't be dealing with a hungry battery in the morning. No need for MPPT or anything fancy. Decent reliability but nothing too awesome. Any specific reccomendations? So many out there and so many are sure to be cr@p...

Thanks!

Jonathan

birdhouse

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Re: 12V/10-15A charge controller inexpensive, reccomends?
« Reply #1 on: November 06, 2013, 11:11:17 PM »
Ghurd???

Bruce S

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OperaHouse

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Re: 12V/10-15A charge controller inexpensive, reccomends?
« Reply #3 on: November 07, 2013, 09:27:24 AM »
You already have the best controller in the world.  Anything else will be less performance.

madlabs

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Re: 12V/10-15A charge controller inexpensive, reccomends?
« Reply #4 on: November 07, 2013, 10:34:20 AM »
Opera,

I don't have a controller on this project at the moment.

Is Ghurd still selling PCB's? Kinda feeling lazy on this one, especially as I am about to start a new controller for the hot tub. I was really kinda hoping for a plugNplay solution, but I could be tempted to break out the soldering iron. Does Ghurf have a website?

Thanks!

Jonathan

EDIT: Found Ghurds website. I don't need a dump or LVD controller, just a battery charger. Can the Ghurd controller do that?
« Last Edit: November 07, 2013, 10:41:41 AM by madlabs »

Bruce S

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Re: 12V/10-15A charge controller inexpensive, reccomends?
« Reply #5 on: November 07, 2013, 10:48:20 AM »
His is a dump style controller, but I see it as a battery maintainer . It'll let the PVs charge then begin dumping once your batts hit full.
I use them due to mine being mostly NiCds and they need a different charge than LA types.
I set mine once, and haven't touched it since. I'm currently at 40Ahr of NiCds on old HF panels.
The bigger system (160Ahr @12V ) on newer stuff, like a morningstar and better panels.

 
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ghurd

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Re: 12V/10-15A charge controller inexpensive, reccomends?
« Reply #6 on: November 07, 2013, 04:16:29 PM »
I am still around.  I just don't have a lot of time for reading everything and posting.

Been a while.  You kind of lost me with "The pump only runs if the sun is shining".
It is wood fired.  Why would you want the pump to stop when the sun stops shining, or run slower in less light?

Anyway.
Can use my controller as a battery charger without a dump load.  It saves the cost and effort of the actual dump load.
WITHOUT A DUMP LOAD ONLY WORKS WITH SOLAR because wind requires a dump load.  You knew that.
Controller decides the battery is at regulation voltage, turns on the fet(s), current runs in circles without making it to the battery to need dumped.
Large panels can use 2 fets in parallel, with ballast resistors on the fet Gates.
Bridges used for blocking diodes because they are cheap for their ampacity, and easy to heat sink.



It will also need an LVD to decide when the pump should NOT run, or the pump will suck the battery down too low.  Probably want to use both fets in the kit, with a ballast resistor on each Gate, and a Schottky flyback diode.
That would be a second kit.
Pump goes where the heater is shown.  Flyback diode not shown.



It works, simple, and robust.
G-
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madlabs

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Re: 12V/10-15A charge controller inexpensive, reccomends?
« Reply #7 on: November 07, 2013, 07:27:48 PM »
Ghurd,

Looks good. I'll order some kits. I'll PM ya about that.

I didn't describe the system in enough detail. There are three thermal panels involved as well as the wood burner and the PV panels. The wood burner is thermo-siphon, so no pump. The pump is for the thermal panels, and so if no sun the pump doesn't run. I already have a controller working for that part. It's a PIC based gizmo, going to do an upgrade on that soon too.

So all I need is a charge controller for 155 watts of panels.

Thanks!

Jonathan

oztules

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Re: 12V/10-15A charge controller inexpensive, reccomends?
« Reply #8 on: November 08, 2013, 03:31:28 AM »
Gee Ghurd,
I find myself struggling to get excited with the shorting of the panels. Series mismatching within the array will result in cells of lesser output, being reverse biased and cause destructive hot spot heating... leading to irreversible degradation of the cell, or commonly glass cracking ( yes even on "good " glass panels).

In well matched and manufactured cells, the effects are negligible, as the V drop over each cell is zero..... but in mismatched ones, the voltage generated across the poorer cell will cause localized problems. So this should only present in poorer quality panels...........Well......No............ Any partial/full  shading of any cell/s in the array will mimic a weaker cell, and the impedance will rise and destruction can begin.

I urge you to study this further....... and yep, I busted a panel in this way. 230 watts became a shattered mess...... and a 60 watter went the same way until I figured out what was happening.


...............oztules

Edit..... this explains it better:
http://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=6&ved=0CEsQFjAF&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.egr.unlv.edu%2F~eebag%2FSolar%2520Cell%2520Shading.pdf&ei=45x8UouDMYariAfTqYHwBA&usg=AFQjCNGyfvR9AP7IRjrX6lWsQadrEOKxPw&bvm=bv.56146854,d.dGI
« Last Edit: November 08, 2013, 03:35:51 AM by oztules »
Flinders Island Australia

oztules

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Re: 12V/10-15A charge controller inexpensive, reccomends?
« Reply #9 on: November 08, 2013, 03:51:17 AM »
Edit #2.
I note the author suggest that 18 cells per blocking diode will mitigate this effect. My experience says otherwise. The blocking diode may have blocked enough to keep the glass from failing maybe..... but  I think the solder joint/s probably  suffered in the heat generated and the insulation( ( thermal) of the ethylene vinyl acetate), and became a high impedance and eventually an arc welder.. localized.... not pretty..... and the cells were 6x6 and over 9A Isc.... not the usual 5x5 mono's


...........oztules
Flinders Island Australia

ghurd

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Re: 12V/10-15A charge controller inexpensive, reccomends?
« Reply #10 on: November 10, 2013, 10:27:35 AM »
Hi Oz,

About 1 diode per 18 cells... I think you meant bypass instead of blocking diode?

I don't see how shorting would effect the PVs in this case.

The 3 parallel strings are isolated with blocking diodes.  No reverse current.

I do not see any purpose to bypass diodes in isolated 12V nom strings either (save some kind of lightning protection?).
Voc of 18 cells = 11V?  Diode Vf = (-)0.7V?  Voct = 10.3V?  Then when any current starts to flow the V drops like a rock, so not enough current to bother trying to charge a battery with below half the Voc.  It becomes a 6V panel trying to charge a 12V battery.

Basically, it is the same as the last page of the link.

I don't agree with some conclusions he makes in the link either.

IE: "but also prevents current flowing from one parallel string into a lower-current string and therefore helps to minimize mismatch losses arising in parallel connected arrays".
Between the power curves and Kirchhoff's Laws there should not be reverse current unless more than a couple cells are completely in the dark.
Say a 1W and 100W, both 36 cell, are in parallel.  Obviously the 1W is lower current, but current from the 100W is not going to feed backwards through the 1W.
Shade a cell or 2 in the 1W and current still flows in the proper direction.
They are operating at the same voltage.  The operating voltage of 1 panel would have to more than exceed the current operating conditions Voc of the other panel before any reverse current would flow.

Even if they are both shorted, and the V was 0V, before reverse current could flow through the other panel it would have to exceed Voc of the panel before it could backfeed.

Thoughts?
G-
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madlabs

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Re: 12V/10-15A charge controller inexpensive, reccomends?
« Reply #11 on: November 10, 2013, 11:45:31 AM »
Whew! Food poisoned on Friday night. Ugh!

Now that I'm back...

Much of the above is moot for me, all i need is a lil' battery charger.

I am curious though, and I wonder how what Oz has to say affects thin film panels like mine, if I was to need to short them. Since they don't have cells per se. Do they behave as a single cell?

Jonathan

OperaHouse

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Re: 12V/10-15A charge controller inexpensive, reccomends?
« Reply #12 on: November 10, 2013, 12:15:50 PM »
Hate to say it, but I have reached an age when if it ain't absolutely broken leave it for another day.  This picture is my water heater controller. A very minimalist design that took about six weeks to finish.  Shorter days and more clouds made it necessary to finish.  It keeps the panels at power point and would also work as a linear current booster for your pump.

I've had a number of panels go bad.  I figure if I wouldn't operate a transistor like that, I shouldn't operate a panel either.  On some panels I can see melting of the plastic on the back where the collector wires are.  Like capacitors, the weakest part are the welds.  I'm for keeping the current down if I can.

oztules

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Re: 12V/10-15A charge controller inexpensive, reccomends?
« Reply #13 on: November 10, 2013, 09:09:36 PM »
Hi Ghurd.
Your dead right that I meant bypass... not blocking.

Thats the agreeing part over.... :)

I am not talking about panels affecting other panels, I am concerned with a cell within a panel

The panel is made up of current sources ( cells). Their voltage per cell is dictated by the  material and doping to make the diode.
The electric field is fixed at a set temperature.... ... (even though the cells terminal voltage is controlled by the internal resistance/impedance we'll ignore this for now)
The current is a function of the number of incident photons incoming.

Now I suspect you have measured a battery in a string that was weak, and showed signs of lower voltage than the others in the string.  If we let this go on, or increase the load, the weak cell will lower in voltage while the goodies stay high. At a point, the battery reverses polarity, and destruction is soon to follow.

The cells in the panel behave the same. Shorting them out, only gives a terminal voltage of zero... inside the panel, the voltage over any point or points is the function of the Isc x the resistance/impedance of the circuit under test.
As the system has resistance, and the internal impedance of the cell appears to wane in less light, our voltage in any part of the circuit is measurable if you had access to the junctions.


This pic is the one of interest in that article.



Look at it, and then guess what happens to the left hand cell, when you have cells that can do 11amps Isc ( I have panels that I have seen those figures on... 6x6 poly panels)... and the circuit will pull in in high light conditions rather than low light I suspect. Panels can easily do 30% more power in the right light conditions.

When the shaded/weak cell cops all that current from it's brothers... things happen.
The proof is in the cooked panels....

The blocking diodes you have pictured only isolate the bank from the panels and each other ( to stop pyrotechnics when you short the panels but not the batteries), so is not in question here.

I am  bothered by the reverse biasing in the weak cell too as it may  permanently harm the cell, but the heat is something else. It melts the solder, and breaks the heat treated glass in the bigger panels.

Thats my point. Use the same circuit, but isolate the panels rather than shorting them....

It is impossible to heat the whole panel by shorting, as that breaks a few rules.... but we can direct the energy of the panel to a specific place, and cause havoc.... bit like using a magnifying glass to burn paper, you can only do it over a tiny area, not the whole looking glass, and still stay inside the thermodynamics envelope.



..................oztules
« Last Edit: November 10, 2013, 09:17:05 PM by oztules »
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ghurd

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Re: 12V/10-15A charge controller inexpensive, reccomends?
« Reply #14 on: November 11, 2013, 08:28:54 AM »
I know what you are saying... but,

Typical 12V panel.  36 cells.  2 strings of 18.  Look at the power curves.
Typical operating voltage, say 13V with a 12V battery?  Or maybe less for a very low battery would be good for what I am saying?
Notice typical operating current is greater than Imp under the same solar conditions.
Reduce the power curve by half a volt for the shaded cell.
The operating current while charging under the same conditions (perfect sun, 50%, or edge effect) is not much different than the current when shorted.  Right?

"inside the panel, the voltage over any point or points is the function of the Isc x the resistance/impedance of the circuit under test."
Exactly!
So it would not be much different than charging a very low battery.  Right?

G-
(PS- Tried isolating, but it was $$$ expensive due to the rarity of decent power P-fets at the time, and there was some discussion of long-wire effects, lightning, etc.)
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oztules

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Re: 12V/10-15A charge controller inexpensive, reccomends?
« Reply #15 on: November 11, 2013, 04:58:20 PM »
Ghurd, everything you say is everything I believed before I started to explode glass with prolonged short circuit testing.... now I know better.
I had even believed that the panel temperature should decrease with the export of the power to another location ( batteries or water pumps etc)... but I never observed this in the real world.

You would expect a panel exporting 230 watts from it's surface to another location, would have a corresponding temp drop from the removal of the power from the "1000w/sqm incident light"... I haven't noticed it.

Shorting a panel should do nothing, as in theory it leaves the exact same amount of energy on the panel, as just sitting in the sun open circuit... should be no change at all.

In the real world, the weakest link in the chain gets exploited,  the synchronous impedance does not change, but the internal impedances that make it up do.
That can range from the silver paint to the copper joining strips..... however it occurs, open circuit panels do not self destruct under any light conditions.... shorted panels can and have.

I have not seen extended periods of over 8.5A in any conditions for a cell running a load, I have seen extended 10-11.5A over fair periods in the Isc testing I did.

I have changed my mind on this business now, and think that maxing out a panel for no good reason, is reason enough not to do it. I don't want anymore self immolation going on........

"(PS- Tried isolating, but it was $$$ expensive due to the rarity of decent power P-fets at the time, and there was some discussion of long-wire effects, lightning, etc.)"... just use an opto isolator and a normal n channel fet... problem solved. Common B+ and Array+...... then  use the fet to switch the solar - to the batt-


The reason why there are articles from the boffins addressing hot spots under Isc ... means where there is smoke there is fire.


Lower power panels may not be a problem, although I still cooked a smaller panel too.... but it was window glass.

As an aside, the home brew panels are still working perfectly, with no degradation at all... all 4kw or more.... some years on... That system of encapsulation works a treat  from the looks of it.
Flinders Island Australia

dave ames

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Re: 12V/10-15A charge controller inexpensive, reccomends?
« Reply #16 on: November 20, 2013, 12:37:44 AM »

Some interesting links and info here...I find some of this a bit upsetting in that many of my long believed understandings of how this solar stuff works may be a bit off   ::)

"You would expect a panel exporting 230 watts from it's surface to another location, would have a corresponding temp drop from the removal of the power from the "1000w/sqm incident light"... I haven't noticed it."

This is a bombshell...everything in me says it just has to be so!

More reading.........
Thanks for the shakeup 8)

Cheers, dave

southpaw

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Re: 12V/10-15A charge controller inexpensive, reccomends?
« Reply #17 on: November 20, 2013, 10:14:09 AM »
My 2 cents worth.
  Because the current is the same in all parts of a series circuit a "shorted" 36 cell panel comprised of 2 sets of
 18 cells in parallel is carrying 1/2 the current through each of the cells and the connectors.
 Usually if there is a weak link in the circuit it will be in the cell connections, causing over heating and failure.
Using a dump load adds resistance to the circuit, reducing the current and decreases the chance of a weak point failure.

This same thing applies to series connected batteries and I have seen many battery systems where the interconnects have
been grossly undersized.  4kw inverters with 4/0 cables and 4ga. interconnects between 12 2v cells and people can't understand why the inverter cuts out on low voltage when a sizeable load is applied.

Southpaw