Ice Wars

[HiddenMountain]

Quite the winter we've been having eh?

Some of us have been fighting it tooth and nail! Stupid physics!

We have had a fairly cold but snow-less winter up until a few weeks ago. That made it tough on my micro-hydro because half of my twin 500 ft penstocks are above ground and without the usual snow cover for insulation, it has been rather prone to freezing. We've had a few bouts of frizzle ice and frozen intakes. This is usually not a worry since the penstocks would normally have just drained, we'd fire up the little Honda and be fine until the frizzle ice melted. Not so this year!

I'm not sure just what went wrong, but it's been two weeks and I have just got a trickle now. A trickle is hopeful! My best guess is that it was a combination of things...

Over the last couple of seasons, the grade my penstocks rests on in the above ground portion has settled.  Now, considering that they are only 3" poly pipe, and that the settling was about 4 inches below the bottom of the pipe, there was a 15 ft. long section where the water couldn't drain. Add - 25 with a good stiff wind and no insulation and bingo, frozen penstocks! Another problem was my vacuum release valves. They were covered by debris and frozen crap, so they probably didn't open when the frizzle ice blocked the coanda screen.

I'm hoping that my two weeks of chipping ice, tiger torching, and general cussing will pay off and that it will all be working again in the morning 

Anyone else had the same, or worse  , fun with their systems this year?

[Mary B]

Just iced over solar panels for a week, I have grid power available so switched over and put the batteries on the trickle charger

[southline]

Sounds like getting the penstocks to drain is the solution.. of course when the weather breaks.  Its been a crazy winter here north of southern Ontario also.  Any update?   Adam

[thirteen]

We've had a mild winter here. Ice on every road or pathway 2-4 in deep. 50% snow pack, We have had rain for here last week. We had a few pipes freeze because of no snow cover and cold temp. But spring is almost here and the winter is losing ground fast. 4000 ft Idaho Panhandle 13 

[HiddenMountain]

Sounds like getting the penstocks to drain is the solution.. of course when the weather breaks.  Its been a crazy winter here north of southern Ontario also.  Any update?   Adam

Thanks for asking Adam, it's working again! Only at about 80% but hey, it beats pouring gas in a genset. I suspect that there's still some ice clinging to the pipes that'll melt off.

We've had a mild winter here. Ice on every road or pathway 2-4 in deep. 50% snow pack, We have had rain for here last week. We had a few pipes freeze because of no snow cover and cold temp. But spring is almost here and the winter is losing ground fast. 4000 ft Idaho Panhandle 13 

Ah yes, summer... Cold ones in the cooler, not a worry or thought of the next winter... 

Just iced over solar panels for a week, I have grid power available so switched over and put the batteries on the trickle charger

Do your panels put out anything when they're covered by ice? I don't have any experience with them. Since we don't get any sun here for three months of the year I haven't been too motivated to invest in them..

[Mary B]

This was about 1 inch thick and from frozen snow so it blocked most output, think I was seeing an amp in full sun. The few times I have had clear ice it drops output to about half. I had people telling me I had over built the mount but after this winter and days on end of 40mph winds glad I went heavy duty!

[joestue]

Ice Wars might not be too far off in the distant future, when we're forced to drag blocks of ice down from the north, and melt them in dry docks..

[richhagen]

I've about given up on keeping my panels clear of snow here, seems like every day we get some, 4-8 more inches today.

[HiddenMountain]

Interesting.

MA, always best to build for the worst case and be vindicated eh? I wonder if it would be practical to use something like an automotive rear window defroster to melt the ice on solar panels?

[hydrosun]

I think the midnite solar controller has a backflow ice melting setting.  It has to be controlled  properly to keep the panels from being damaged.
One hydro system I've worked on had a few hundred feet of 2 inch pve pipe break in freezing weather this winter. Temp in the single digits for a week gradually froze completely pipes suspended in the air over uneven ground.  I didn't install the pipe so I don't know if the terrain would allow a longer penstock to better follow the contours and be always in contact with the ground.  The system has been in for 25 years without such problems in the past, so it may be a cse of settling pockets too.
Chris

[Mary B]

The sun will melt them free even at -20 in 2-3 days so I just keep an eye on battery voltage and plug in the charger if needed.  Snow doesn't sit on my panels very often, it is to busy going by horizontally.

[HiddenMountain]

Ice Wars might not be too far off in the distant future, when we're forced to drag blocks of ice down from the north, and melt them in dry docks..

I meant to ask you joestue, can you explain this statement? It sounds like something they did in the days before refrigeration...

I think the midnite solar controller has a backflow ice melting setting.  It has to be controlled  properly to keep the panels from being damaged.
One hydro system I've worked on had a few hundred feet of 2 inch pve pipe break in freezing weather this winter. Temp in the single digits for a week gradually froze completely pipes suspended in the air over uneven ground.  I didn't install the pipe so I don't know if the terrain would allow a longer penstock to better follow the contours and be always in contact with the ground.  The system has been in for 25 years without such problems in the past, so it may be a cse of settling pockets too.
Chris

PVC pipe just can't handle the ice in it. Polyethylene pipe, on the other hand, can freeze solid and not have a problem when it thaws. But just try to find 20ft. lengths of it that can easily be put together...

[joestue]

It sounds like something they did in the days before refrigeration...
[...]Polyethylene pipe, on the other hand, can freeze solid and not have a problem when it thaws. But just try to find 20ft. lengths of it that can easily be put together...

not to mention the price of polyethylene pipe, if you can find a local supplier.

anyhow, back to California's drought.
there are a few professors who have now caught the media's attention, who have been saying for sometime now that California has been enjoying 100 years of a "wet anomaly" and they say we could see "drought conditions" for the next 200 years...
(and yes the US government has conducted studies in the past to see how much effort it would take, to drag a chunk of ice down from the north pole and melt it for fresh water needs)

[HiddenMountain]

anyhow, back to California's drought.
there are a few professors who have now caught the media's attention, who have been saying for sometime now that California has been enjoying 100 years of a "wet anomaly" and they say we could see "drought conditions" for the next 200 years...
(and yes the US government has conducted studies in the past to see how much effort it would take, to drag a chunk of ice down from the north pole and melt it for fresh water needs)

Ah ok, gotcha... There's been a lot of discussion over the years about Canadian water going to the US. I like what one commentator said years ago, "We have lots of it and spend half of the year covered in it, so why not export some to the places that need it." My only concern would be keeping the PTB from getting greedy and making it a private commodity. It appears that some are already making noises to that effect... http://www.waterwarcrimes.com/

As for frozen pipes, I honestly don't know what the best, and most economical, solution is. Steel pipe is expensive and hard to work with as a DIYer. PVC is brittle, as is ABS. Polyethylene is the best but usually only comes in huge rolls, which make transporting it a challenge. I was fortunate enough to get a super deal when my old neighbour moved away and sold it to us below cost. It was a bugger to get it in place by myself though.

I have been considering building a full length "house" for it. Made from wood milled locally and insulated with styrofoam for the entire length, the kinetic energy should be enough to keep it from freezing even in the coldest conditions. It would be a huge project though and, of course, one falling tree could make a big mess of it...