Off-the-grid fire fighting

[Out There]

I read an old (2004) string, here, related to firefighting (brush fires seemed to be the primary concern). It sounded like the guy was off grid, as he had a halon extinguisher by his inverter. He had just purchased a diesel water pump. This subject has been on my mind, of late. I'd like to BEGIN planning for a fire-suppression system which would allow some automation (I'm thinking of a sprinkler system, actually), and wondered what people's thoughts were. If I had a dedicated pressure tank with a pressure switch (much like you have on a typical well), I was thinking I could set that up to (electrically) start a fossil-fueled pump to help keep up pressure. I'm hoping my water source can be a cistern (yet to be planned/built) or the year-round stream I have on my property.
Anyone have any experience with anything remotely like this?
-Brian

[birdhouse]

i was actually doing fire suppression work today as a matter of fact.  forklifts and sprinkler pipes don't mix well! 

the pipe typically used in older systems is standard schedule 40 with npt threaded ends.  new systems use a much thinner wall with a dedicated mechanical clamp/gasket system for joints.  for DIY, i'd goe with threaded. 

most systems run at ~60-90 PSI.  these pressures will yield about 15' diameter spray per head.  they're very water hungry! they thread into a 1/2" npt female threaded hole.  there are also different temperature ratings on heads.  i believe they come from ~ 160 degrees to 200 degrees for the auto spray feature to engage.  so basically a fire has to be already burning before a head will spray.  each head sprays individually.  IE- if one sprays, they all don't.  each head has to get to the temp brink before it will spray. 

there's wet and dry systems.  wet systems are always full of pressured water.  dry systems are full of compressed air.  they are used were a wet system could freeze and burst pipes.  the compressed air in the pipes keeps a flapper valve shut at the base of the riser.  if a head goes,    the compressed air leaves, and the flapper valve opens, releasing the water.  this is a bit scary, as when you have a fire with a larger system, your shooting 600+ gallons of ~35-40psi compressed air (oxygen) onto a fire before the water comes out! 

if you have any other questions feel free to ask.  i MAY be able to answer.

adam

[madlabs]

I live off the grid an am a volunteer firefighter of 15 years. I have thought about  a sprinkler system but instead have decided not to.

Instead, firstly, I practice good fire safety. Fuels, solvents, paints, etc. in a metal locker, keep the shop clean, good wiring, all that sort of stuff. Then I have fire extinguishers sprinkled around all over the place, total of 6 five pound ABC's. Then I have a 2600 gallon tank (setting another one soon) and a gas powered pump with 30' of suction hose and 300' of 1 1/2" fire hose, a good nozzle, and an inductor and 10 gallons of foam.

So nothing automated but I'm ready to rumble if I am here.

Jonathan

[Out There]

Wow! Both EXCELLENT responses! I may actually tend toward (at least for now, in the planning stages) a balance between the two.

birdhouse, when you say "very water hungry", do you have any idea as to what that would mean? How much do I need to have in "reserve"? What would I need for a pressure tank? 60-90 psi seems do-able….

madlabs, I sincerely appreciate, and take to heart, your point regarding "good fire safety". Any potentially flammable liquids are not stored in the house. I don't actually have that much… wiring is well done (so far as I've investigated). I have several ABC extinguishers about the place, too.

My house is three levels (not three stories) totaling 2300 sq. ft. Once the soapstone stove is rebuilt, it will be in a room with a lot of combustible material (books on wooden shelves - lots!) which happens to sit on a concrete slab.  At the opposite end of the house, connected to but not communicating with the interior of the home, is my electrical room (battery box, inverter, PV charge controller, etc.). I suspect these two rooms are going to be my biggest challenges.
 
A while back (when I was really broke and could not afford it) I saw what looked like an excellent deal on eBay: A self-contained, Halon, ceiling-mounted fire extinguisher with a sprinkler-style head. I thought about one of those for my electrical room. Any thoughts?
-Brian

[birdhouse]

brian- 

"very water hungry"

a standard older home is if fed with water via a 3/4" water main.  newer homes are typically 1" main. 

a sprinkler head uses 1/2".  i think you'd struggle to get full flow out of three heads from a 3/4" main. 

risers for systems with a 100+ heads are in the 6-8" range.  we're talking big time water flow at 75psi.  then there's the FDC connection at the street.  fire departments will hook a pump truck to a fire hydrant to push pressures above 100 psi to any blown heads to get them to "over flow".   

i'm wondering a little why you're worried?  a newer listed wood stove should be fairly safe, as long as the floor and wall protection/clearances are correct.  i personally let my wood stove run while i'm sleeping and have never thought much of it.   

is you battery bank vented? hydrogen can escape from batts while charging.  it's very flammable. 

if a sprinkler system goes off, the results are pretty damaging.  obviously less damaging than the whole house going up in flames...  but it's pretty bad.  most times the "water" in the pipes is more like rusty sludge being thrown about. 

i'd think money spent in the prevention/prepared realm would be the better bet.  venting the electrical room at it highest point (hydrogen rises) and giving the wood stove a code plus clearance to combustibles.

adam

[Out There]

Adam,
Thanks for your reply. I'm my own water company. Currently drawing from a 45' deep drilled well. My plan is to build a cistern (if I can't find a suitable tank) for rainwater collection. I also have the year-round stream which leads to a river a few hundred feet from the house. These could be water sources for a sprinkler system and/or a regular firefighting connection. So I'd need to have a pressure tank (I was thinking of the 85 gallon version) and a fossil-fueled pump.

I wouldn't say I'm so much "worried" as I am trying to foresee all potential problems. Also, insuring a remote house can be expensive, especially if you live a good distance from the closest fire department. THAT's why I was thinking of a sprinkler system. There are no water mains in my area, either, so I'm trying to think of a way to provide water for firefighting.

As to my batteries…. the room is vented through the roof. The box, itself, is also directly vented with an S-vent, through an outside wall, (with anti-vermin screening). The wood stove will be set on tile over concrete (floor) with rigid fiberglass insulation behind a river rock surround (walls), with appropriate clearance. The nice thing with this stove…. it's a soapstone stove which does not get quite so hot on the outside as a cast iron or boilerplate steel stove. There are lots of things already in place. I'm trying to provide back-ups to my protection system and… potentially…. back-ups for my back-ups.
-Brian

[Mary B]

One thing many of the Northern Minnesota rural people are doing is installing sprinkler systems for their roofs with a gas or diesel powered pump in case of a forest fire. Still a lot of blow down trees up there that could explode into a massive fire in the right conditions. So a gas or diesel backup pump system is already used in places.

[birdhouse]

brian- i hear you on the insurance thing.  i still have yet to get insurance for my off grid ranch. 

what's the company with the jingle?  "go after your dreams, we'll protect them"  i called those folks.  told them about my dream, and they wouldn't protect it.  when you get questions like: "where's the nearest fire hydrant?" and the answer is: "30+ miles away" you don't tend to get too far into the conversation.  i was only looking for coverage from theft and fire.  that's it. 

either way, it's going to be hard to get an insurance company to sign off on a home built sprinkler system where when a pressure tank falls below a certain pressure, then it activates a pressure sensing relay, which then activates an auto start mechanism, that then starts a generator, that then starts a pump from a water source that certainly has limits, that then feeds through pipe to finally (hopefully) puts out the fire.

i have heard of code compliant gravity feed sprinkler systems with multi thousand gallon tanks.   the problem you run into here, is you only gain ~.5psi per foot of stored water height. certainly, sprinkler heads can be put closer than standard to account for lower PSI systems, but unless your property has some pretty large hills, it's hard to support a large volume of water very high in the air.   

your best bet might be to have large poly tanks filled via rainwater, your well ect.  talk with your local fire folks, and put whatever fittings they like to use on the tank.  i think their standard is 2" quick connect style fittings.  also have your own way (pump) to use the water for putting out a fire. 

i had a 37,000 acre forest fire come within a mile of my ranch last summer (mile marker 28 fire if you wanna google it)  after many talks with the fire fighters, prevention was all they spoke of.  de-limbing trees, removing brush, getting pine needles off the roof and out of the gutters... 

i told them we had a full 1550 gal poly tank, they instantly said:  wow, we should easily be able to save you place with that.  they mix in a foaming solution so the moisture sticks around, rather than just draining.  pulling water from an above ground tank is far easier for fire fighter than from a well or a stream. 

i got my 1550 gal poly tank for $600.  there were three at time time (new) that were ordered for a project that went south.  i wish i would have bought at least one more.  you can find these tanks pretty cheap if you look around. 

just some thoughts

adam

[thirteen]

I cannot get insurance on my place I am to isolated.   I live back in the sticks. I do like the trees just outside my doors. The brush is close also. If it burns then I'll just build another one. The 4 mile long canyon I am in has steep side mountains. If a fire starts this will go up in about 30 minutes and even if I were to clear things away 300 ft like they want you to my place will still be engulfed.  I was also a volunteer firemen for 5 years. they will not even send a firetruck down into this valley it is to steep,  no fire crews it is to dangerous and there is only 2 ways out. the same for an ambulance during  the winter forget it. Life flight only if you can call. No cell phone reception.
Put your tank under ground if you have cold winters. Put a relay in for remote control to be able to start your pump from 1/2 mile away. No need to run your water out until necessary. Unless you can supply it with water with another pump. A good shelter for it will also help with proper filtering for air. Just a thought 13

[madlabs]

Brian,

As mentioned, make sure that your water tank has the fitting that fits your local FD's suction pipe. Here we use 3". Make sure that the engine can get to and away from the tank. Keep access as close as possible, some engines only have 30' feet of suction pipe. If they have to use longer non-reinforced hose it slows things way down.

Make the area defensible or the the FD won't try to defend it. A few years back here in CA we had 3000 fires burning at the same time due to a statewide lighting storm. We had to abandon several homes because they weren't defensible and we had no air support available. The owners were PISSED when we told them too bad and see ya. On the other hand we saved a whole cluster of homes that were defensible.

Jonathan

[waitatian]

Just a note on fossil feuled water pumps.
 During the bushfires in Australia a few years ago someone  mentioned that the heat from an approaching fire evaporated the fuel supplying the pump motor protecting his house.

[Frank S]

There is a lot that could be said about a  redwood or Cyprus overhead water tank as a kid all of our water came from a windmill driven pump and was stored in a 10 ft dia. 8 ft tall wooden tank mounted atop of a 20 ft wooden tower our windmill was an aeromotor 602 with an 8 ft fan. every thing to the house and barns was gravity fed.
 once we had a fire somehow get started in a corn bin the nearest VFD was 10 miles away  wouldn't have mattered if they had been a mile away as we had no telephone. buckets from the cattle trough and a 100 ft 1" hose was all that saved the barn. We were lucky since if the fire had gotten much bigger the hay loft would have caught fire. I don't remember me or any of my cousins being taken behind the wood shed for smoking in the corn bin but I'm sure one of us probably deserved it

[sunbelt57]

I have some raw land out in WY in the grasslands. The other day I was burning some sage brush in a 55 gal. steel barrel and walked down into a ravine to get some more that was piled up. By the time I walked back within 100' I could see the grass outside the barrel burning. I started running up to it and by the time I got there, the fire had spread to about a 5 or 6 sqft area. Luckily there was a shovel nearby and I managed to barely be able to stamp it out. As dry and windy as it was, it could have developed into a major grass fire. My cabin would have burned down along with all my stuff and the local ranchers would have been pissed.

[Mary B]

Never ever burn if there is wind and it is dry. That is a recipe for disaster. And composting that brush and grass makes more sense. Good addition for the garden.

[Mary B]

Have you thought about getting  a ham radio license? Would give you communications out of that valley, you are probably line of sight to a 2 meter repeater and possibly even an autopatch to make phone calls via the radio.

I cannot get insurance on my place I am to isolated.   I live back in the sticks. I do like the trees just outside my doors. The brush is close also. If it burns then I'll just build another one. The 4 mile long canyon I am in has steep side mountains. If a fire starts this will go up in about 30 minutes and even if I were to clear things away 300 ft like they want you to my place will still be engulfed.  I was also a volunteer firemen for 5 years. they will not even send a firetruck down into this valley it is to steep,  no fire crews it is to dangerous and there is only 2 ways out. the same for an ambulance during  the winter forget it. Life flight only if you can call. No cell phone reception.
Put your tank under ground if you have cold winters. Put a relay in for remote control to be able to start your pump from 1/2 mile away. No need to run your water out until necessary. Unless you can supply it with water with another pump. A good shelter for it will also help with proper filtering for air. Just a thought 13

[Frank S]

You were extremely lucky today.
 Burning in a 55 gal drum can be a recipe for disaster if you don't have a cover on it to keep the hot embers from escaping.
Our old burn barrel had a hinged mesh cover, and even with that some of the smaller hottest embers could be ejected in the right conditions. remember an ember can be carried for 100's of feet even with NO WIND.
 A hinged 1" mesh expanded metal cover will stop most things even if an aerosol can happens to be in the works but to be safe a 1/2" rabbit wire dome about 6 ft in diameter  about 3 ft above the barrel with sides that extends well below the rim line will stop almost everything else. mounting the dome on  some metal "T" posts will server as structure. adding a couple of hinges so you can lift it from 1 side makes it easy to access the burn barrel. the ground around the barrel should be barren with no vegetation for several feet   

[gww]

He probly doesn't have any vegitation around the barrel now  .
gww

[Frank S]

From the time my cousins & I were tall enough to see over the dash and reach the pedals of a 36 Chevy pickup it was our job to load 55 gallons of home brew Napalm, to fill a WWII flame thrower then ride the fence rows and burn tumble weeds on the range land Gramps had leased .
 Gramps would tell the neighboring ranchers & farmers when it was time to burn and they had better have their side plowed or ready
 I've seen tumble weeds along a fence row as high as 10 or 15 ft
 We could always count on feasting on weed cooked rabbits the days we burned.

[madlabs]

Always have one of these suckers handy:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McLeod_(tool)

Most versatile fire tool ever made, plus you'll use it for all sorts of other stuff too. Great for grass fires. Just remember to fight from the black!

Jonathan

[OperaHouse]

We have "good insurance".  My wife had a nagging cough and being out of town we had to find someplace to go.  Didn't want the cost of an emergency room so looked at the dock in the box places.  Researched the internet and consumer reports.  It said the supermarket (yea groceries) nurse practiconer visit would cost about $100, urgent care with a doctor would be $150.  Wife chose the later.  Found one connected with a hospital and asked what their charges would be.  Sh said just a $40 copay with our insurance, at home it would be a $20 copay with our doctor.  Seemed reasonable.   Ten minutes with the doctor.,  They  never could get her blood pressure, two machines that never worked properly and the doctor wrote the prescription wrong, but it was over.   Then we got the bill,  over $1300 and after insurance our cost was $400.  Should have gone to the ER and had a real doctor.  Healthcare is a sham.  They play with the billing codes to turn everything into a major crisis.

[XeonPony]

Old thread but I'll give it a go.

First you need to build your power shack in a certain way to make it optimal, then a CO2 suppression system for the power system (Batteries, inverters, chargers, gen set)

For the house a couple of large tanks (250g propane tanks) pressurized with nitrogen supply deluge heads w/ or /wo foaming agent.

No pumps or electricity needed.