Author Topic: The case for slip rings  (Read 9374 times)

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SparWeb

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The case for slip rings
« on: April 27, 2014, 01:23:41 AM »
It is one of those long-standing questions that wind turbine builders must face, "drop cable or slip rings?"

The cable drop is simple, and reliable as long as it's been secured at the top.  There is often very little trouble for most builders.
Others choose to make slip rings, to allow the turbine to swivel about as needed without concern for the cable twisting up.
I have always chosen the "drop cable", mostly because it is so simple and I'm not patient enough to fuss about with slip rings.
During maintenance of my WT last summer, however, I had a moment to pause and reconsider:



That's just a dozen or so twists that are visible.  As you can guess it was quite a tangle all the way down.
Since my wind turbine is always pointing into the wind, then all that twisting must be coming from changes in wind direction that keep adding up.  Clockwise.

Last summer, I wasn't prepared to do anything about it at the time.  A new chassis was already finished for the turbine at that point, too late to put slip rings on, and I had so many many other things to do.  Up it went, and I thought maybe the weather station info can confirm this later.

But winter is a great time to think about the things that you're too busy to deal with in the summer time (readers should be aware that today, 26th April, it is snowing here).  One of the things I wanted to figure out is just how often the wind turns about full circle, which way, does it turn back the other way, and all that stuff.  Digging through the heaps of data from my weather station, I've finally extracted a result:



Wow
On the graph, positive is clockwise.  There's no point showing the counter-clockwise side, because throughout the year, the wind is always making more clockwise direction changes than counter-clockwise changes.  The flat spot in July is a period of deactivation of the wind sensor, so there may even be a dozen more clockwise turns that I missed.

You can bet that I'm going to be reading more about slip rings in the future.
No one believes the theory except the one who developed it. Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.
System spec: 135w BP multicrystalline panels, Xantrex C40, DIY 10ft (3m) diameter wind turbine, Tri-Star TS60, 800AH x 24V AGM Battery, Xantrex SW4024
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phil b

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Re: The case for slip rings
« Reply #1 on: April 27, 2014, 01:41:43 AM »
I can't say I've ever seen one twisted up that badly. Mine would twist and I'd unplug it from the socket at the base and unwind them. Maybe that's the simplest answer.
Phil

Flux

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Re: The case for slip rings
« Reply #2 on: April 27, 2014, 04:00:31 PM »
It does depend so much on the site. Here there is also the tendency to twist clockwise, but the period can be many months before it is bad enough to need untwisting.

On turbulent sites things can be far worse but such sites are problematic in so many ways. I have some small machines on a site that is not realistically viable amongst a lot of trees but they do help during the periods when the sun doesn't shine. All these have some crude form of slip rings, the scheme is based on that of the Lucas freelite that also exists on this site. The yaw consists of sleve bearings with the thrust taken on a brass block sitting on a brass pad at the centre, this is foolproof. The Freelite relies on the negative connection through the sleve bearing, cast iron on steel. The dynamo is offset and one side of the casting rubs fairly hard on the pivot tube. It works well enough but there is undoubtedly a bit of sparking at times.

When I tried my machines I found that I had to use a brush running on the pivot tube, this is brass on steel and has to be greased. There has been no real trouble over the past few years. These machines are small and I wouldn't want to try that on large machines.

I have another machine where the furling scheme made it desirable to have a control rope down the center, this one has 3 ac slip rings with caliper brushgear using metal graphite brushes on brass rings, it is well enclosed to keep the weather out. This has never given the slightest problem except that it squeaks when it yaws one way and can sometimes be rather irritating, I thought it would go away as the brushes bedded down but it still squeaks now after 5 years. This Yaw head runs on decent bearings, I don't think slip rings of the conventional type are viable with pipe on pipe bearings.

If the site is troublesome then slip rings can be effective as long as you are not in a maritime environment where you would need silver rings and silver graphite brushes or expect regular maintenance.

My advice would be to use caliper brushgear with fairly strong spings compared with the springs used on this type of brushgear on rotating machines where the rings form a skin. The problem comes when the wind is in the same direction for months then moves round and the brushes contact a part of the ring that has not recently been cleaned. I think the caliper type fair better beacuse you have 2 brushes and because the brush doesn't rock about as the direction reverses.

Flux

birdhouse

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Re: The case for slip rings
« Reply #3 on: April 27, 2014, 07:25:46 PM »
i'd like to add a note here:  i think twisting depends some on the electrical cable used.  sure some wind sites are going to twist no matter what, but i believe the type of cable used can make a big difference. 

i used 6/3 SO cable down my 70' tower.  i had dabbled in the idea of slip rings, but thought i would give it a go with SO cable.  certainly i had my doubts!  as a test, i spun out the full 100' roll of cable, had my buddy hang on to one end, while i started twisting the other end.  by golly, that stuff has LOTS of flexibility and well as LOTS of rebound strength!  after putting as many turns as i could easily turn, i let go of the SO while my buddy hung on to the other end...  it rebounded somewhat violently! 

my point being, if you have a many turns one way on a mill with thick SO cable, and the wind changes to a point where the mill could go either way, it is going to go the way of unwrapping the cable.  there is a lot of force in that cable where it doesn't want to turn any tighter, yet wants to relieve that pressure and turn the other way.  i'd even bet the mill might "unwind itself" after a heavy wind incident where lots of turn where made. 

spar webs photo shows he is not using a grouped SO cord for his down tower cable.  not trying to stir the pot here.  we all use what we have around or can afford!  i can see how that cable would do little to retard twisting. 

edit: i've yet to have to untwist my cable once in three years, even though i feel like my tower should be another 20' tall to avoid turbulence.

just my thoughts..

adam

kitestrings

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Re: The case for slip rings
« Reply #4 on: April 27, 2014, 10:21:30 PM »
On our latest machine we're using just a twist cable with a 50A twist-lock plug/socket at the bottom.  So far it has been good but it hasn't been up long enough for me to have a firm conviction.  We are using SO cord like Adam, and I would agree it has quite a bit of resilience.  The rubber is more flexible than the neoprene.

The Sencenbaugh has dual-post mounted (clip-type) bronze brushes.  I can't say as I've had much trouble with this design, and it has been a common one.  There is some maintenance with any slip-rings, but I think the bigger debate is whether the added complexity of the build is worth the benefits.  We went back & forth on it quite a bit.

I'd avoid the single contact designs for reason already stated.   The single "arm" types where the brush is off-set from a single post are particularly unreliable in my experience.

It is important to keep them clean, but I'd gotten into a routine of bring along narrow cut strips of 600 grit emery, and a can of contact cleaner.  If the machine is of a size that you can spin around easily, you can clean without any disassembly (other than any access port/cover).  If the turbine has a gearbox oil can be a added nuisance.  Top mounts are possible, but take some creativity.

~ks

PaulJ

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Re: The case for slip rings
« Reply #5 on: April 28, 2014, 01:01:12 AM »
Mine once twisted up so much that the cable shorted and snapped off near the top of the tower.
There was evidence of a small shower of molten metal at the bottom of the tower, had this happened at the height of the fire season here I could have been in a bit of strife.
Fortunately the remains of the cable at the top of the tower had welded itself into a short, I wasn't left with a runaway mill.

Needless to say my maintenance schedule is rigorously adhered to these days.

Southern hemisphere, anticlockwise twist!

Paul.

Smithson

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Re: The case for slip rings
« Reply #6 on: April 28, 2014, 01:06:22 AM »
What is an SO cable?    I searched it an it came back to this thread.   Thank you.  Arch

dbcollen

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Re: The case for slip rings
« Reply #7 on: April 28, 2014, 01:38:54 AM »
SO cable is extension cord cable, look up SOOW Cable, that is what it really is.

kitestrings

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Re: The case for slip rings
« Reply #8 on: April 28, 2014, 08:25:29 AM »
Quote
SO cable is extension cord cable

Well, most extension cords are SJO, and many use neoprene covers that do not flex well in cold temps.  I think the new designations are SOOW & SJOOW.  Generally SO is service or stranded cord; the "O" is oil-resistant IIRC.  The main difference though is SJO is not as heavy duty; rated for 300V.  SO (SOOW) is rated for 600V.

~ks

Harold in CR

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Re: The case for slip rings
« Reply #9 on: April 28, 2014, 08:51:11 AM »

 When I built my 4KW turbine, back in the late 70's, I used Chevrolet starter brushes and springs. Fabricated the board from double ply Masonite and fastened the brush holders to that. Slip rings were brass water pump bushings, I epoxied the rings to a galv piece of water pipe, and spun it on a lathe to get it totally concentric so there was no brush problems. Soldered the leads from the Alternator to the rings. I used the pipe so the tail pull cable passed through it, to the ground for storm control. Didn't know anything about self furling at that time.

 Had a used International 2 ton truck rear axle bearing and race, that was used for the swivel of the turbine. Welded an old curved disc from a farm disc for smoothing the plowed ground.

 Ran welding cable that was connected to the brush holder board, down the 80' tower to the battery shed.

 Everything worked for over 4 years, until the tornado threw the blades off. I had built a spring feathering system, ala Marcellas Jacob design. Blades sustained no damage.

SparWeb

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Re: The case for slip rings
« Reply #10 on: April 28, 2014, 03:12:54 PM »
A great response from everyone, thank you all!

I've been puttering through the FL site looking for nice examples.  Seems a lot of old stuff I remember is lost / has broken links.  Going to try the "wayback machine" and see if I can't dig up the old photos that I've seen before and thought "yeah that should work"...

Flux,
Your comments today are an echo of things I've seen you post before about slip rings, and it makes sense every time I hear it - the brushes that are designed for one-way motor use must not be used on the yaw-mount of a wind turbine because they do not contact properly when turned the opposite way.  Looking at the wear on DC motor brushes I can see what you mean.  I think I remember from school that those brushes also have anti-spark laminations in them that are also pointless in this application.

Paul J,
That's a nasty tangle you had there!  Thankfully fail-safe but just as easily a broken circuit.
...Southern hemisphere, anticlockwise twist!
Huh, sounds like you're wishing a tornado on me - I'll try not to take your anti-cyclonic attitude personally.








...sorry fellas I had to say it.
No one believes the theory except the one who developed it. Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.
System spec: 135w BP multicrystalline panels, Xantrex C40, DIY 10ft (3m) diameter wind turbine, Tri-Star TS60, 800AH x 24V AGM Battery, Xantrex SW4024
www.sparweb.ca

SparWeb

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Re: The case for slip rings
« Reply #11 on: April 28, 2014, 03:17:30 PM »
Aha,
Found this from Captain Slog in 2009:



No one believes the theory except the one who developed it. Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.
System spec: 135w BP multicrystalline panels, Xantrex C40, DIY 10ft (3m) diameter wind turbine, Tri-Star TS60, 800AH x 24V AGM Battery, Xantrex SW4024
www.sparweb.ca

SparWeb

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Re: The case for slip rings
« Reply #12 on: April 28, 2014, 07:01:28 PM »
...and the case against slip rings:

http://www.fieldlines.com/index.php?topic=145828.0
No one believes the theory except the one who developed it. Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.
System spec: 135w BP multicrystalline panels, Xantrex C40, DIY 10ft (3m) diameter wind turbine, Tri-Star TS60, 800AH x 24V AGM Battery, Xantrex SW4024
www.sparweb.ca

shawn valpy

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Re: The case for slip rings
« Reply #13 on: April 28, 2014, 11:39:12 PM »
My two cents  :)
slip rings are just more moving parts that if fail can lead to mill death, but correctly built with the right brushes and good workmanship they are great, my mill is spinning often and the sliprings save me the hassle of any twisting cables they are homemade and handle well over 100 amps often, its been two years since the mill has been down for a look but when I do there will be no problem with them.
Why should we be scared of moving parts  ::)
my pictures are on my old computer but there is nothing special to see just simple sliprings.

Flux

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Re: The case for slip rings
« Reply #14 on: April 29, 2014, 03:15:23 AM »
Spar
That picture shows the caliper brushgear I used and the commercial rings that go with it ( I had to build my rings).  This brushgear was usen in most of the rotating armature alternators common 20 or more years ago and proved very reliable.

The other brushes shown in the picture with pigtails are from sliding brush boxes and are the ones I would avoid.

I shortened the springs on mine to increase brush pressure for this application, they tend to run fairly light on rotating machines.

Flux

SparWeb

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Re: The case for slip rings
« Reply #15 on: April 29, 2014, 03:50:46 PM »
Thanks Flux.

The caliper looks like something I can make.  The secret is probably the copper strips, to make the electrical path have low resistance, no matter how it moves.
Any secret sauce in the brushes there?  I would start with something like the brushes in a truck/car starter motor, but I still haven't sliced through the numerous opinions to any solid recommendations.
No one believes the theory except the one who developed it. Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.
System spec: 135w BP multicrystalline panels, Xantrex C40, DIY 10ft (3m) diameter wind turbine, Tri-Star TS60, 800AH x 24V AGM Battery, Xantrex SW4024
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Mary B

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Re: The case for slip rings
« Reply #16 on: April 29, 2014, 04:13:50 PM »
For the copper strips get beryllium copper stock. It can be used on its own to make springs and is used to make sliding contacts in a lot of things

Flux

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Re: The case for slip rings
« Reply #17 on: April 29, 2014, 05:24:03 PM »
Yes the copper strips is essential to carry the current without it flowing through the arm pivots.

In reality it is a bit of a weak point in the design as the copper work hardens with movement and vibration and I have seen some units with it broken. Copper braid would be a better alternative if you decided to make your own.

Starter motor brushes should be fine. The brushes in the commercial unit are held by a clamp screw with a form of offset washer to hold them firmly in the corner of the arm. You could do likewise and with starter brushes you can also solder the pigtail to the arm .

You could do away with the pivots and make spring arms from phosphor bronze or beryllium copper, beryllium copper is not a very user friendly material and the hardening process if you want to make it truly springy needs heat treatment in a nitrogen furnace.

Flux

SparWeb

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Re: The case for slip rings
« Reply #18 on: April 29, 2014, 10:57:55 PM »
Thanks everyone.  That brings pretty much all of it into focus.
Springs can be ordered in virtually any size these days so who would bother making them.
Copper braid is available in stock where I work no problem there.
A trip to the junk yard will yield the starter motor.
Same trip stopping by a "retail" metal supplier should turn up some brass tubing.  Heavier wall the better (for fastening lugs). 
Failing that it would be solid round stock but ouch that would cost a lot.
I may find some phenolic insulator rod but frankly I think that delrin or nylon will do just fine too.
Lathe time is hard to come by now that I work for a different company, but the guys have warmed up to me enough that maybe I can start up some simple projects again.
I also have an idea about the tower-top piece to retro-fit the yaw bearing.  Easy welding job.

Before I go shopping I will stop by a couple of motor repair places and see if they have the right kind of parts there.

A few notes to address some other questions asked above:
I don't really have a plug at the base, but I don't mind opening the box, removing the screws and doing the untwist that way.  Except that...I have been untwisting the cable.  It seems to bind up partway down the tower (which is rather slender I admit) and the twists just keep accumulating above the kink.  Twisting the other way at the bottom didn't help.

I live in Alberta, which has a very dry climate (we get between 50-100cm of rain in a year).  I do not foresee trouble with slip rings due specifically to humidity.  I would be a fool not to protect them anyway, especially considering that dust accumulation can be just as damaging as moisture.

No one believes the theory except the one who developed it. Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.
System spec: 135w BP multicrystalline panels, Xantrex C40, DIY 10ft (3m) diameter wind turbine, Tri-Star TS60, 800AH x 24V AGM Battery, Xantrex SW4024
www.sparweb.ca

kitestrings

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Re: The case for slip rings
« Reply #19 on: April 30, 2014, 04:49:29 PM »
SparW,

Here are a couple pics of the Sencenbaugh slip rings. Pretty rough, but then this machine is over 30-years old.  The brushes have clips on the sides and pairs are clipped onto the four posts hanging down from the top.  In this case there are 5-rings; three phase leads and two field wires.  The access is very cramped, but they are very easy to remove from the posts for cleaning. 

Didn't notice if it were mentioned, but the black powder dust/residue is actually one of the contaminants that builds up on things.

Neilho designed a post-production aluminum weather shroud on the top on our daily driver that offers much better weather protection.  the original, seen here, is "cupped" up.

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best, ~ks

kitestrings

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Re: The case for slip rings
« Reply #20 on: May 01, 2014, 08:15:24 AM »
For some reason the photos did not appear to make it.  Once more:

« Last Edit: May 01, 2014, 08:19:54 AM by kitestrings »

Mary B

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Re: The case for slip rings
« Reply #21 on: May 01, 2014, 04:04:20 PM »
Beryllium copper spring stock is very safe to work as long as you don't sand it and create fine particles. I have used it for years in amateur radio amplifier parts where I needed a sliding contact

Jason Wilkinson

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Re: The case for slip rings
« Reply #22 on: May 02, 2014, 05:14:01 PM »
  Like   Flux said  it depends on the site,  here in the caribbean and  Barbados in particular we hardly get winds from the west  ( unless it's after a hurricane ,and the "eye" passes and wind direction changes) also depends on the machine and how it's made   i've seen some air x  spinning  like they were "tops"
 no matter what cable is used  and the machine has the tendency to spin the cable will still twist
 Jason