Author Topic: Possibly a hydraulic powered wind generator  (Read 5669 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Frank S

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1901
  • Country: us
  • Home with a view of Double mountain
Possibly a hydraulic powered wind generator
« on: May 27, 2014, 07:47:32 PM »
 This probably should be in the wind forum or in the pub  because of the proposed use
     Hydraulic wind generator
 I rebuild several portable gasoline & diesel welding machines for a customer of mine.
 So a few months ago he asked me my thoughts of powering one from a wind mill.
 He has a Miller Bobcat 225 AC/DC generator that has a hydraulic motor to power it. This unit was at one time powered by a pump mounted on a PTO in a truck
What he wants to do is to use the tower and Fan from an old water pumping wind mill for a couple of reasons.
 # 1 he hates the sight of a conventional wind turbine tower or the turbine blades itself.
# 2 on his farm and other farms in his area there are several old water pumping mills still being used so one more even though larger would hardly be noticed.
 #3 He has a cousin in CA. who owns a 50 ft. angle iron tower that had a 20ft Diameter fan on it, which he could buy for cheap
 # 4 He has an old abandoned dry well with a 30 ft. windmill tower on it that used to have a 7ft fan He could replace the 30 footer with the 50 footer on new footings and install a fan of the size required to power the generator without raising any eyebrows.
 Anyway this got me to thinking about such a system.  Based on his set requirements.
 First off the pump would have to be what is termed a hydro-constant, similar to the pumps used in cement trucks only smaller.  Based on the size motor mounted on the generator it would only need to have an output of 15 GPM @ 1500 PSI to power the generator at full load or 15 GPM @ 250 PSI @ no load ignoring flow & pressure loss due to hose length. 
 Next the pump would need to be mounted to a gear box to speed it up to about 700 RPM minimum 1000 RPM max. 
  Thinking about the hp output of a 20 ft. fan in a 15 MPH wind, with a rounded down roughly 300 sf swept area with approximately .028 HP per exposed Sq. Ft.  To be exposed to about 8.4 Hp   @30% efficiency yield about 2.5 Hp 
 There will be many details to be worked out, some of these won't be too difficult others will be dependent on how he plans to use the energy produced.
He could use the welder portion as a charge generator to a large 24 volt bank possibly 2 or 3 sets of pallet truck packs. There is also the 120/240 output side of the welder this  could serve as the grid of a grid tie inverter  several possibilities 
 The turbine might be prevented from spinning in low winds by a poppet valve the pump would be set to be at full volume stroke while at rest and de-stroke as the wind speed increases.
 He has been tossing this around for a year or more, today he called me and asked me to start putting together my thoughts on this thing. My first deep thought was to get as much feed back from the bunch here as possible
I live so far outside of the box, when I die they will stretch my carcass over the coffin

Mary B

  • Administrator
  • SuperHero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3174
Re: Possibly a hydraulic powered wind generator
« Reply #1 on: May 28, 2014, 04:38:38 PM »
Maybe an electric hydraulic power pack? Use a geared up axial alternator? Would give more constant speed control via a battery in the axial output to compensate for wind changes. Plus no hydraulics up the tower.

Frank S

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1901
  • Country: us
  • Home with a view of Double mountain
Re: Possibly a hydraulic powered wind generator
« Reply #2 on: May 28, 2014, 08:30:29 PM »
Maryalana I fail to see the logic in constructing an axial generater to power an electric motor that powers a hydraulic pump that powers the hydraulic motor driving the generator.
 when a turbine can power a geared up variable displacement pump which will power the hydraulic motor that turns the generator.
 He wants t use the welder/generator to charge a bank that will run a large inverter  He is not wanting to use it to weld with.
 The Miller bobcat welder has a max output of 225Amps @ 24v nominal
 I have used engine driven welders to jump start heavy equipment many times but mostly this was done with my 400 Amp mega Arc Hobart diesel I could connect the leads to the batteries then turn up the controls until I reached the desired amps & volts . Jumping off a 3512 Cat engine in -20 deg weather was easy enough
 The problem with this little miller is going to be how to control the output current. I might be able to treat it as a large solar array through something like a midnight classic or a SPS series 100-300
 Also the Bobcat is either constant current or constant voltage  and can be used either as DC or AV current output. the Auxiliary 120/240 is 3 up to 3 kw while welding , or in this case hopefully while charging.
  He may be getting ready to through several grand at something that  will never do what he wants.
I live so far outside of the box, when I die they will stretch my carcass over the coffin

ChrisOlson

  • SuperHero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 3642
  • Country: us
Re: Possibly a hydraulic powered wind generator
« Reply #3 on: May 28, 2014, 11:55:41 PM »
I rebuild several portable gasoline & diesel welding machines for a customer of mine.
 So a few months ago he asked me my thoughts of powering one from a wind mill.
 He has a Miller Bobcat 225 AC/DC generator that has a hydraulic motor to power it.

I don't think you're going to power that Miller with a windmill unless it's a dang big mill driving a PFC pump.  15 gpm @ 1500 psi is 13 hydraulic hp and hydraulics are only roughly 50% efficient on power transfer.  So you're going to need 25-26 hp on the pump.  That's a dang big windmill.

Frank S

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1901
  • Country: us
  • Home with a view of Double mountain
Re: Possibly a hydraulic powered wind generator
« Reply #4 on: May 29, 2014, 12:45:19 AM »
I rebuild several portable gasoline & diesel welding machines for a customer of mine.
 So a few months ago he asked me my thoughts of powering one from a wind mill.
 He has a Miller Bobcat 225 AC/DC generator that has a hydraulic motor to power it.

I don't think you're going to power that Miller with a windmill unless it's a dang big mill driving a PFC pump.  15 gpm @ 1500 psi is 13 hydraulic hp and hydraulics are only roughly 50% efficient on power transfer.  So you're going to need 25-26 hp on the pump.  That's a dang big windmill.

 Chris O; I had already told him months ago that  if he wants to use a water pumper fan he would need  one of those that were popular in Ca in the 40s & 50s they had a 20 to 21 ft dia fan on a 50 ft Angle iron tower 4x4x5/16" legs. even then it would take 30MPH sustained winds to power it anywhere near 75% load amps
 When we start talking about a fan only being about 25 to 30% belts at best
E = 0.5 * (rho) * V3 * (pi) * R2.
RHO= air density. V= wind speed.

 A 10ft windmill @ 20MPH wind speed would have .06HP per exposed sq ft. 75sqft. aprox  = exposed to 4.5 HP  @30% efficiency hte usable hp is only 1.5 total
 A 20 ft fan in 20 MPH winds might get him about  5.5 usable HP  translate that through the hydraulics he would be looking at maybe 3 KW
 I was thinking if he wants to use the welder and still have it on the ground hydraulically powered  and use the fan like he is talking then an auxiliary Diesel powered pump could be plumbed in I have a Kubota 902  from a Zero turn lawnmower that could fit that requirement. That way it would be like having a standby generator for "0" RE days 
I live so far outside of the box, when I die they will stretch my carcass over the coffin

Frank S

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1901
  • Country: us
  • Home with a view of Double mountain
Re: Possibly a hydraulic powered wind generator
« Reply #5 on: May 29, 2014, 01:16:00 AM »
What I can't see though is if one were to do this why not go with a 25 to 30 ft Dia. 3 blade turbine with pitch control. wouldn't that develop near the same torque and be a ton more efficient? Less susceptible to high wind damage. lower maintenance as well . He could mount it on say a 70 ft Mono pole of about 24" base diameter.
 BY going to that size in the area where he is it wouldn't be hard to get an RE wind permit   
 So many variables so many unanswered ¿¿¿
I live so far outside of the box, when I die they will stretch my carcass over the coffin

ChrisOlson

  • SuperHero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 3642
  • Country: us
Re: Possibly a hydraulic powered wind generator
« Reply #6 on: May 29, 2014, 10:05:09 PM »
Well, the thing is, I don't know how efficient them windmill rotors are.  They got high solidity but I'm pretty sure a high tip-speed-ratio three-blade rotor is more efficient.  Like a Jake 23-10 has a 7 meter (23 foot) diameter rotor and they produce about 15hp at the shaft @ 25 mph and run at TSR8.  A Jake 31-20 is a 9.4 meter (31 foot) diameter machine and they can produce about 30hp at the shaft @ 25 mph and also run at TSR8.

A Jake grid-tie turbine would be ideal to drive a hydraulic pump.  It already has an angle gearbox and the generator is driven by a truck driveshaft.  Just remove the generator and replace it with a pump.  But I don't know why anybody would want to do that.  You'd need a PFC pump so it could run at any speed and deliver constant pressure and flow, and that means running a signal line to the pump's compensating port for the swashplate.  And then with hydraulics you got slippage in the pump, slippage in the motor, restriction in the lines and by the time you get everything said and done you lose roughly 50% of all the input power to the pump in heat.  There's a reason hydraulic systems need coolers and they get so hot you can't even touch a line without getting burnt.

I mean, my CaseIH Magnum tractors got nine-cylinder axial PFC pumps - 75 gpm @ 3,000 psi.  And standby pressure is 540 psi at zero flow.  The hydraulic system in one of those holds 175 gallons of oil and within one hour running a couple little 1.5 gpm vac motors @ 3,000 psi on a planter the oil temperature reaches 200 degrees F.  I'll let you do the calculations on that on how many BTU's it takes to heat 175 gallons of hydraulic oil from ambient to 200F just to run a couple vac motors that total about 5hp power requirement.  That's your input power being turned to heat in return for the flexibility and reliability of using hydraulics for a remote power source.

Frank S

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1901
  • Country: us
  • Home with a view of Double mountain
Re: Possibly a hydraulic powered wind generator
« Reply #7 on: May 30, 2014, 04:52:07 AM »
I'm familiar enough with the hydraulic circuitry to do this. At least I think I am
Powering something with hydraulics using wind is going to be another matter though
the power of wind is fickle at best there is hardly any usable kinetic energy for what he wants to do at speeds below 15 MPH unless I can talk him into a large diameter turbine, or  in the event of using a fan they have so much solidity, the prevailing winds in his area will require a means of allowing extreme surface area reduction of the fan to prevent it from acting like a huge billboard atop the tower in winds of 25 MPH or more.
 He has an anemometer mounted on a 45 ft utility pole and according to him last year he had 230 days of over 20MPH winds lasting as much as 10 to 14 hours per day . I can not verify this since he did not data log the results. 
 Here are but a few of the things I've built that relied extensively on hydraulics
One of the drilling rigs I built,  hydraulic steerable trailer with a hydraulic tower/ turntable. A truck mounted hydraulic concrete wall saw unit. & a diesel powered hydraulic driven locomotive to haul muck out of a tunnel
8236-0
  



8241-5
I live so far outside of the box, when I die they will stretch my carcass over the coffin

ChrisOlson

  • SuperHero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 3642
  • Country: us
Re: Possibly a hydraulic powered wind generator
« Reply #8 on: May 30, 2014, 09:10:03 PM »
Here are but a few of the things I've built that relied extensively on hydraulics

What I'm saying is that you can build a hydraulic powered tooth brush if you want.  But that don't mean it's practical.

Frank S

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1901
  • Country: us
  • Home with a view of Double mountain
Re: Possibly a hydraulic powered wind generator
« Reply #9 on: May 31, 2014, 02:48:10 AM »
You will get no argument from me there.
I live so far outside of the box, when I die they will stretch my carcass over the coffin