Author Topic: Researching the possibility  (Read 9141 times)

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olddawgsrule

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Researching the possibility
« on: June 09, 2014, 05:05:13 PM »
I found this forum while researching the possibility of a Micro-Hydro system.

I read a thread of an individual asking some of the questions I am.
I'm looking for advise and formula's.
Even if this experiment doesn't work, for which ever reason, the process is very important to me.

I'm about to head up to my cousins land and survey the land and look into his hope of Micro-hydro power.

I have a short list of requirements, but realize there are others I should be looking at, and not thinking of..

Putting the generator a side for right now, let's look at what I need for even a possibility.

I said Mirco because I believe that goes to 5Kw.
Reaching a point of 2Kw would be a minimum (well, for now).

There are several unknowns and the main reason for the trip up there.

It's supposed to be a 2 acre beaver pond at the head of the stream (depth unknown).
Distance from the house.. unknown
height of land could be as much as 400ft or as little as 200ft, again unknown
outlet stream velocity or volume.. unknown
Condition of pond.. unknown
Is it spring fed or just a spring run-off pond (beaver pond, have to believe it's spring fed)

Not only advise of what else to look for, but a few formula's to work with those finds.

If folks here have interest, I'll be happy to continue the thread and post the spreadsheet (I'm building) for others to use.


 

 

JW

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Re: Researching the possibility
« Reply #1 on: June 09, 2014, 09:27:20 PM »
Go to the bottom of the home page and google search the site  Micro-Hydro system ..

https://www.google.com/search?sitesearch=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.fieldlines.com&q=Micro-Hydro+system&gws_rd=ssl

SparWeb

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Re: Researching the possibility
« Reply #2 on: June 09, 2014, 09:41:17 PM »
Better to get the measurements first, then worry about the formulas and calculations later, like you are planning.

A pedometer, a hand-held GPS, or at least a surveyor's tape, to measure the distance between house and hydro outflow, penstock inflow and outflow, nail down the elevation change by +/- 25% if you can....

Not keen to hear about beavers in your area.  Kind of like building a bridge over a channel with icebergs...

Basically the Power is Head multiplied by Flow:
Head is the elevation, or another name for pressure - reduced a little by friction in pipes.
Flow is the amount of water running through the pipe - driven by the head, limited by back pressure due to friction in the pipes.
But I'm getting ahead of myself, there.
No one believes the theory except the one who developed it. Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.
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olddawgsrule

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Re: Researching the possibility
« Reply #3 on: June 10, 2014, 04:20:28 PM »
Thank you guys!
SparWeb: Looks like I'm on the right track with my list and thank you for the first formula
Intention is to bring something to fill and time.
Second is to mark out a 20ft section of stream (outflow), determine volume (depth at 1ft points across) and time an object flowing through the section.

JW; I'm going there next.

olddawgsrule

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Re: Researching the possibility
« Reply #4 on: June 10, 2014, 05:12:08 PM »
JW; seems a lot of folk are asking the same questions and no one has put the basic info in one spot yet..
If there's one amongst all this... could you point it out

In my process I hope to build a spreadsheet of process
What is there
What can it do
How to determine

As I said, I will post the sheet for all to improve/use as I proceed for others that ask again



JW

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Re: Researching the possibility
« Reply #5 on: June 10, 2014, 07:22:16 PM »
Work with Bruce and DamonHD ask about the FAQ's section and talk to them via PM.

olddawgsrule

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Re: Researching the possibility
« Reply #6 on: June 12, 2014, 06:10:12 PM »
Seems like I'm stuck in process without enough information..
This I hope to accomplish on my visit up north.

So far I can calculate the pressure of said dam.
I can also calculate what it will take to turn the generator.

They're of two different types of measurement...
One of pressure, the other of torque.. They are not equal..

So, what I'm understanding is I have to know flow/volume to equate.

The question becomes;
Am I on the right path?

I'm certain one of you have been down this path..
What did you use for a formula to determine the possibility before building?


joestue

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Re: Researching the possibility
« Reply #7 on: June 12, 2014, 06:51:22 PM »
first off, you need to understand the limitations you face.

for most folks, that limitation is the pipeline.
if the pipeline is the limitation, then the maximum hydro power is located at the 2/3rds static pressure. measure the static pressure, and design the turbine for 2/3rds that pressure, spend some time with the half dozen online pipe flow calculators to find the water flow at that pressure loss.

if the water quantity is the limitation then you have to choose how much the power is worth, to make a reasonable investment in the pipe.
My friend in oregon was looking at 1100 feet of pipeline for 67 psi of static pressure, at up to 6 cubic feet a second. 6 inch pvc pipe wasn't in the uh, 'pipeline' so to speak, and the system hasn't been built yet.

anyhow,

i recommend turgo wheels over pelton wheels. anything less than 40 psi and i would look into designing a kaplan turbine, via lost wax casting after prototypes built with via 3-d printers out of plastic, to find the optimum size for maximum efficiency.

design the generator last, its the easiest thing to build. but only build the generator after measuring the available power via a pony brake or some other arrangement.
i would throw out the idea of trying to design the turbine around a fixed rpm of say, 1850 or 3700 rpm and attempting to convert an induction motor to generator.
it is simply not worth the lost in power. but for some its lightning proof and that's what matters.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2014, 06:58:35 PM by joestue »
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olddawgsrule

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Re: Researching the possibility
« Reply #8 on: June 15, 2014, 08:28:14 AM »
Exactly Joe!
What are the Limitations?

I see this so far as;

1) What is the possible gain from said stream or dam
   a) Flow rate (I now have the formula)

2) Now that flow rate is calculated
   a) I can calculate Power in Watts less deficiencies (also have the formula)

3) Next step I'm debating between;
   a) Capability of generator
   b) Gains and losses of gearing
   c) Type of turbine / wheel
   d) Distance from source to use

I'm in this order right now and working on the generator capabilities/ requirements

When done this, I should see what my limitations are from source to use, hypothetically.   






hydrosun

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Re: Researching the possibility
« Reply #9 on: June 15, 2014, 02:55:59 PM »
When  doing a site survey you look at the possible resources to power whatever you are trying to do. You don't make any mentiion of what the power is being used for. Is the place on grid now? Or is a fuel generator being used? Is it raw land? When you start mentioning using a weir to measure flow it sounds like you have a large stream. But no mention of whether there is any fall. If there is a large fall and flow you may want to use the limits of what power is needed to limit the size of the system. By using power efficiently you may not need as large of a system so you can keep the cost and maintainence lower. Bigger is not always better.  I like to get elevation by using a site level and walk up the hill and count the number of turns to get the totl head. Head in feet times the flow in gpm divided by 10 will give the approximate watts. It is easier and cheaper to deal with higher head than large volumes of flow.
You also need to look at seasonal varied flow to see what size of system makes the most sense.  You can size the system for maximum flow, low flow or average flow.
So gather as much info as you can to be able to design the best system to fit the resource and power use.
Chris

olddawgsrule

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Re: Researching the possibility
« Reply #10 on: June 15, 2014, 03:29:33 PM »
Thank you HydroSun (Chris) for chiming in!

"When  doing a site survey you look at the possible resources to power whatever you are trying to do."
Exactly! That's what I'm hoping to accomplish before building.
In the process, I hope to build a spreadsheet that others can use to determine the same.
If someone has already, please point me towards it and save me some time..

" Is the place on grid now? Or is a fuel generator being used? Is it raw land?"
It's on the 'Grid' now, yet regardless IMHO..
The point of this is to determine what the source is capable of and give others a resource, in one spot, what could be done.

" But no mention of whether there is any fall. If there is a large fall and flow you may want to use the limits of what power is needed to limit the size of the system."
With this information, you would calculate what the outcome would be.
I don't wish for a solution, I want to know how you came to it...

"By using power efficiently you may not need as large of a system so you can keep the cost and maintenance lower. Bigger is not always better."
Agreed, reason for the exercise..

Understand me please, before anyone builds, it would be good to have a resource (of which I can not find) in one place that gives me the info I require or the process involved, to show me what the possibilities vs outcome are...

Thus the reason for building this spreadsheet
My hope is, even if I can not, others will gain from this!

Your input is important and thank you for it.
I am glad to see you following!




olddawgsrule

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Re: Researching the possibility
« Reply #11 on: June 17, 2014, 05:44:04 PM »
Some good info has come from this site and I thank those that have responded.

I tripped across a write-up someone did that contains a lot of info.
A very good explanation or example of the parts of a Hydro System.

It seems it's important to create a controlled dam.
Something you can create a 'Penstock' from (a new term to me).

I have more reading to do and think there may be a formula in here somewhere that will show me the benefit of a Penstock.

keithturtle

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Re: Researching the possibility
« Reply #12 on: June 18, 2014, 12:07:00 AM »
"Is it spring fed or just a spring run-off pond (beaver pond, have to believe it's spring fed)"

You might be disappointed at what you determine your flow resource to be; an artesian water source might be clear, cold and pure, but it usually doesn't put out the volume you need for any appreciable power.   50 watts, maybe.  100 times that at 5kw, real doubtful. GPM is just as important as head; got 'em both and you're in business, lots of one or the other, you can make it work.

A screen at the opening of the penstock to keep the river rats (beavers) out of your system is strongly advised.

Measure twice, cut once

Turtle
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olddawgsrule

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Re: Researching the possibility
« Reply #13 on: June 18, 2014, 01:09:06 PM »
"Is it spring fed or just a spring run-off pond (beaver pond, have to believe it's spring fed)"

You might be disappointed at what you determine your flow resource to be; an artesian water source might be clear, cold and pure, but it usually doesn't put out the volume you need for any appreciable power.   50 watts, maybe.  100 times that at 5kw, real doubtful. GPM is just as important as head; got 'em both and you're in business, lots of one or the other, you can make it work.

A screen at the opening of the penstock to keep the river rats (beavers) out of your system is strongly advised.

Measure twice, cut once

Turtle

Absolutely agree Turtle!
Reason why I'm going through this effort.
Before anything is built, before any money is spent, Do I have what it takes..
When I'm done this exercise I hope others can benefit from it.

I do have a thought for 'Flat-Landers' that I won't get into, for I don't have enough of the calculations (as of yet) to determine if it's practical.

To all following or interested:
I'm looking for a formula to determine the gains and losses for adding the Penstock.

Mary B

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Re: Researching the possibility
« Reply #14 on: June 18, 2014, 05:20:35 PM »
local brewery gets their water from an artesian well, thousands of gallons per hour. More than they can use so they pipe the excess to a spot where people can fill jugs. The stream flowing from just the overflow is 5 feet wide and 10 inches deep.

"Is it spring fed or just a spring run-off pond (beaver pond, have to believe it's spring fed)"

You might be disappointed at what you determine your flow resource to be; an artesian water source might be clear, cold and pure, but it usually doesn't put out the volume you need for any appreciable power.   50 watts, maybe.  100 times that at 5kw, real doubtful. GPM is just as important as head; got 'em both and you're in business, lots of one or the other, you can make it work.

A screen at the opening of the penstock to keep the river rats (beavers) out of your system is strongly advised.

Measure twice, cut once

Turtle

keithturtle

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Re: Researching the possibility
« Reply #15 on: June 19, 2014, 11:01:25 AM »
That's impressive.  Population growth around here has reduced many springs to just a trickle of what they used to be.    It's pretty flat here too

Turtle
soli deo gloria

olddawgsrule

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Re: Researching the possibility
« Reply #16 on: June 19, 2014, 05:37:35 PM »
Mary A, I know it's not protocol to advertise who, but PM me with their name  and I will patronize.

If you have and there's an over-flow..
Why not?

Back to reading and researching.. Looking for the elusive formula (that I can understand..) on the PenStock..

keithturtle

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Re: Researching the possibility
« Reply #17 on: June 20, 2014, 12:15:24 AM »


Back to reading and researching.. Looking for the elusive formula (that I can understand..) on the PenStock..

http://www.homepower.com/articles/microhydro-power/design-installation/microhydro-intake-design

No formulae, but pics in the sidebar tell the rest of the story.  I have the pdf but cannot find a link

Turtle

soli deo gloria

olddawgsrule

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Re: Researching the possibility
« Reply #18 on: June 22, 2014, 12:10:31 PM »
I've come quite a ways with this to date.

Invoicing a stream is built
Determining Power in watts is built
I have calculations for an overshot, undershot and Pelton
Which has lead me to Jets (getting close on this)
And next will be Pipe flow restrictions

Would like one of you to clarify the term Mean Runner Diameter for me.
I believe when it states a 10:1 ratio of Mean Runner to Jet diameters it truly is.
If the Jet is 1", then the Pelton wheel will be 10".

What I'm not seeing so far is to determine the size of the bucket..

Again, thank you all for your responses

keithturtle

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Re: Researching the possibility
« Reply #19 on: June 23, 2014, 12:19:25 AM »
It's in here, somewhere

http://books.google.com/books?id=zThVAAAAMAAJ&pg=PR3&dq=water+power+engineering+Daniel+W+Mead&hl=en&sa=X&ei=M6qnU_n2NMjL8wH0qYC4Dw&ved=0CDEQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=water%20power%20engineering%20Daniel%20W%20Mead&f=false

on one of the 817 pages.  Download all 45 megs for free- full of good stuff.

Sadly, search doesn't work well on this scanned document

Turtle
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olddawgsrule

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Re: Researching the possibility
« Reply #20 on: June 23, 2014, 03:53:15 PM »
Thanks again Turtle!
Loads of info in there.

I'll do some more reading, but I think this is going to be a 'GoTo' book as I develop more questions.

This is another passed to me, great read as well:
http://www.builditsolar.com/Projects/Hydro/WaterTurbineAppendix.pdf