Author Topic: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project  (Read 149479 times)

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skid

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #198 on: September 25, 2017, 10:34:42 PM »

Just a couple of questions.  How will the PMG work under partial flow conditions?  Does the PMG impose a load on the wheel to lower the RPM and extract the maximum power?  Does the efficiency fall off under variable flow conditions?

With regards the design of the wheel; you have open buckets?  With a poncelot wheel I thought the wheel worked on two principles... 1) the dynamic impact of the water jet coming from the sluice/flume box striking the back of the bucket, and 2) the static weight of the water held within the buckets as the wheel rotates.   Your wheel looks more similar to an undershot wheel, or even a crossflow wheel?


The PMG just makes less power at lower rpms. The faster the water wheel spins the more power it makes up to the generator's maximum of 50 rpm.

Poncelet wheels are undershot. He basically introduced curved blades to what were originally straight paddle blades. His blade design is a little more sophisticated than just a plain curve but for simplicities sake that's what I made.

skid

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #199 on: September 25, 2017, 10:36:27 PM »
If you want maximum power point tracking (MPPT), you may need to have the electronics do that for you, to get the most out of your variable flow.

Rgds

Damon

I  gave the company that sold me the inverter the power curve for the generator so hopefully they set it up correctly.

Coles

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #200 on: September 26, 2017, 02:40:00 AM »
With regards the design of the wheel; you have open buckets?  With a poncelot wheel I thought the wheel worked on two principles... 1) the dynamic impact of the water jet coming from the sluice/flume box striking the back of the bucket, and 2) the static weight of the water held within the buckets as the wheel rotates.   Your wheel looks more similar to an undershot wheel, or even a crossflow wheel?

Poncelet wheels are undershot. He basically introduced curved blades to what were originally straight paddle blades. His blade design is a little more sophisticated than just a plain curve but for simplicities sake that's what I made.
Ah yes!  Sorry, I was thinking of the Fitz Waterwheel design which is overshot.

skid

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #201 on: September 26, 2017, 12:03:56 PM »
I connected the lift cylinder to my tractor's hydraulic system to fill it with oil, to bleed the air out of it, and stroke it a few times before connecting the cylinder to the frame. I then tested the raising and lowering of the wheel to simulate adjusting it for water level changes and removal of the wheel for maintenance. I raised the wheel fully to its highest position but was unable to lower it completely as it would hit the ground. Everything worked smoothly.

Mary B

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #202 on: September 26, 2017, 05:03:41 PM »
I can't wait to see this in action! Whenever I pour a tower base(ham radio) I always waited 4 weeks for the concrete to set.

george65

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #203 on: September 26, 2017, 06:02:07 PM »

You're going to need a MUCH bigger tractor to install that mechanism and remove it for maintenance if you ever have to !  :0)

Pics really give some idea of the size of the thing.  Sure is a lot of machinery and engineering for 5Kw! When one takes into account it will be 5 Kw 24/7 and fuel free, that puts a different perspective on it. Can you sell the excess back to the grid and if so, how much can you get per Kw there?

Definitely one of the biggest and best made DIY projects I have ever seen on the net.  Can only imagine what the control setup is going to look like.

Thanks for the updates and allowing us to follow the progress. Very interesting.

keithturtle

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #204 on: September 27, 2017, 10:31:34 PM »
Soon it will power the light at the end of the tunnel

Gotta love progress

Turtle
soli deo gloria

SparWeb

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #205 on: September 28, 2017, 01:15:37 AM »
So cool, skid   8)
No one believes the theory except the one who developed it. Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.
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skid

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #206 on: September 29, 2017, 06:10:42 PM »
 Thanks All!

The riverside level control system is partially complete. I built a roof overhead to protect it from rain/snow. Right now it is tied to a tree but will eventually be positioned in a better spot . The three LED readouts in the bottom will give me readouts of the voltage/currents of the three phases so I can elevate the wheel to where it will make the most wattage.

I used quick connects to connect the hydraulic cylinder to my tractor. I will keep these on to connect it to the riverside level control system as well. If the battery or something else fails I will always have my tractor for hydraulic back up.



skid

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #207 on: September 29, 2017, 06:17:18 PM »
I removed the forms and welded the pivot cap on the top of the pipe. There is a large bolt  on the W/W frame that will bear on the pivot cap which will lift the works off the pipe flange (once the bolts are removed) and allow the frame to be rotated by hand. All the frame weight will be born by this large bolt when pivoting. I will grease the pipe above the flange to facilitate rotation but it should rotate easily as it is well balanced.


george65

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #208 on: September 29, 2017, 06:40:07 PM »
The pic above struck me straight off.  I looked at the way you have made the frame to hold the roof and laughed to myself at the quality of it and your way of doing things. Even something as simple as this is done to a very high quality level and presented so nicely. If it had been me the control box  would have been sitting on a pile of bricks or a  plastic crate with a big sheet of tin over the top and I would have called it done.  :-[

I had a discussion with a friend earlier in the week. For years he has been trying to change the way I do things. This could be summed up in one sentence he said the other day, " Everything you do works perfectly, you can do what supposedly can't be done but it always looks like complete $#|+." 
Which is true.

I always put function completely over form. If it works as it should, job done, move on. My friend on the other hand is like yourself and it has to look good as well as work perfect. To him one is no good without the other although maybe he is a bit too far the other way and goes to way too much trouble but it always looks like a million and a half Dollars.  He was showing me a trailer he built for his Go kart the other day. It makes professional car racing teams look rough. Over engineered, over presented, every possible feature built in, the attention to detail is endless. If I had done it the thing would be strong, water tight and made from whatever I had lying round and the rust would still be on it.

 Seeing that pic of that simple bit of protection you built really drives his point home. It's also testament to the overall quality of this project and your outlook on things.

I am trying to improve my presentation in things I do which is a bit ironic as in my game I win a LOT of contracts because of the way I present my work.
For whatever reason, that has been completely abandoned in my DIY efforts but I am now conscious of it and am going to try to do things different.

You really are going to need a brass plaque for this thing because it is going to become a landmark of your area. :0)

skid

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #209 on: September 29, 2017, 06:41:49 PM »
To pass electrical inspection I also ordered a 175 amp breaker for my home panel to replace the 200 amp breaker. The panel is designed for 200 amps and theoretically I could exceed that rating with power supplies from the grid and the water wheel. I also need to order high voltage warning labels for the riverside panel and near the inverter to meet Canadian Electrical Code. At that point I will call the electrical inspector to get final approval.

Next week I will order a crane to install the works onto the foundation. At that point I can finalize the back fill of the foundation, position the riverside control skid, and run the power cable and hydraulic hoses from the control skid to the W/W frame.


skid

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #210 on: September 29, 2017, 06:46:34 PM »
The pic above struck me straight off.  I looked at the way you have made the frame to hold the roof and laughed to myself at the quality of it and your way of doing things. Even something as simple as this is done to a very high quality level and presented so nicely. If it had been me the control box  would have been sitting on a pile of bricks or a  plastic crate with a big sheet of tin over the top and I would have called it done.  :-[


Hey George,

In my case it's probably a mental disorder. I drive my wife nuts sometimes.

skid

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #211 on: October 03, 2017, 02:26:33 PM »
Well, today was the big day. I craned the waterwheel assembly onto the foundation. It was of course a lot heavier than what I anticipated. 12,500 pounds with the stand, and 11,500 for the final lift where we removed the stand.

Because it was so heavy we had to move it 7-8 feet at a time as the truck crane I hired could only boom it out so far before it reached its limits.

But we finally put it on the stand after I gave everything a good grease. I can easily turn the works on the pipe stand by hand even without the pivot bolt bearing down on the cap so it is pretty well balanced.

I couldn't resist dipping it into the water for a quick test run without any electrical connected. I did a few tests at different elevations and it turned the fastest when the side plates/blades were 1/2 submerged. I got 9 revolutions per minute at the current river speed which is slow due to low flows.

Video - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wstcw8NqXpw



SparWeb

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #212 on: October 03, 2017, 02:59:12 PM »
Congratulations on your Poncelet Wheel's christening ceremony  :)

That may be a very satisfying 9 seconds of Youtube Video for you, but totally unsatisfying for us who are watching, enjoying, and eager to see more!
No one believes the theory except the one who developed it. Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.
System spec: 135w BP multicrystalline panels, Xantrex C40, DIY 10ft (3m) diameter wind turbine, Tri-Star TS60, 800AH x 24V AGM Battery, Xantrex SW4024
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DamonHD

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #213 on: October 03, 2017, 03:55:36 PM »
Very impressive!

SparWeb, don't be greedy: let the poor man draw breath!  B^>

Rgds

Damon
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Bruce S

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #214 on: October 03, 2017, 04:45:07 PM »
What a wonderful sound!! Kinda like a steamboat chugging down the river
Thank you for sharing!
A kind word often goes unsaid BUT never goes unheard

skid

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #215 on: October 03, 2017, 05:08:36 PM »
Sparweb,

Once I finalize everything I'll do a more in-depth video. I still need to complete the trench for the electrical cable and hydraulic hoses, position the level control cabinet, do some more backfilling and final landscaping, etc.

Pretty happy everything went well today cause things were a little tense with the crane pushing its limits. Glad everything fit properly too!

Bruce, I'm a little surprised by the sound as well. 

SparWeb

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #216 on: October 03, 2017, 10:24:26 PM »
Damon, I ain't greedy.  I'm jealous!

Skid, c'mon give'er! 
No one believes the theory except the one who developed it. Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.
System spec: 135w BP multicrystalline panels, Xantrex C40, DIY 10ft (3m) diameter wind turbine, Tri-Star TS60, 800AH x 24V AGM Battery, Xantrex SW4024
www.sparweb.ca

MattM

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #217 on: October 05, 2017, 06:55:16 AM »
So when trenching that rocky soil do you use an air tool to dislodge the soil then loosen the rocks and hand move each one?

I'm curious because it likely is not just a simple task to trench in that location.

skid

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #218 on: October 05, 2017, 11:58:54 PM »
So when trenching that rocky soil do you use an air tool to dislodge the soil then loosen the rocks and hand move each one?

I'm curious because it likely is not just a simple task to trench in that location.

I used a trenching machine to get close to the river bank as my soil is very sandy loam. Once I got within  30 feet or so of the river it became extremely rocky. I'm started digging the final section now and it is very tough going because of the rocks. I'm using a pick, a trenching shovel, and a 5 foot steel pry bar. It's quite a work out as some of the rocks are really wedged in there and weigh upwards of 300 pounds. If my buddy showed up with his little excavator I'd let him do it...

skid

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #219 on: October 06, 2017, 11:13:06 PM »
Here ya go Sparweb!

Another short video of me lowering the waterwheel into the water with a few different angles as well. I've created a Youtube channel for this.

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OPfjoAQxvcQ

I'll create a few more videos as I get everything commissioned and tested.

Fordguy64

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #220 on: October 06, 2017, 11:17:49 PM »
THAT is so sexy...  8)

hiker

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #221 on: October 07, 2017, 12:15:11 PM »
How's the tork on that..perhaps a bigger pully on the wheel..any readings yet ( volts ) ? Looks great.
WILD in ALASKA

keithturtle

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #222 on: October 07, 2017, 10:16:56 PM »
Mr Davids is a killjoy with his comments.  Great to see you've completed this phase; now on the the next

Turtle
soli deo gloria

SparWeb

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #223 on: October 07, 2017, 11:31:01 PM »
Yeah, NEVER read the comments on Youtube.
The comments here are enough!

Thanks for letting us see the "dry run"...  so to speak...

Of course, you're tossing around words like "commissioned" so you must be some kind of eggineer who takes his time to do it right and all. 
Looking forward to a proper immersion of the blades in the water and getting the true measure of the machine.  Happy to see it going so well so far.
No one believes the theory except the one who developed it. Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.
System spec: 135w BP multicrystalline panels, Xantrex C40, DIY 10ft (3m) diameter wind turbine, Tri-Star TS60, 800AH x 24V AGM Battery, Xantrex SW4024
www.sparweb.ca

Mary B

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #224 on: October 07, 2017, 11:34:09 PM »
That thing is awesome! One of th emost ambitious projects here since the guy who designed and built his own oil bath chain drive gear case.

skid

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #225 on: October 17, 2017, 02:18:14 PM »
Did some testing today. Making between 600-900 watts inverter output as the digital meter on the inverter is bouncing around a bit. The flows in the river are just slightly above the yearly lows according to the gov't river gauges so this is likely slightly above the minimum outputs I can expect to achieve.

I've got the wheel as low as it goes into the river. The water level is about 3/4 up the blade outside sidewalls currently.

I may have to adjust the ram pins so it can lower the wheel even further as the more submerged it is the more power it makes so far.

The forecast is for rain so the river level and flow speed should increase. We'll see where it goes...

george65

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #226 on: October 17, 2017, 05:35:25 PM »

What will allow the wheel to generate the target 5Kw? Is it the height of the river or the speed?  From the vid it's hard to imagine the thing flowing even 3 times faster as from where I am, that's a pretty fast flowing river already!

There are always the armchair critics on YT. You can bet the less they have actually got off their useless arses and done themselves, the more critical and full of it they are. Like the seagull on your vid that wants to $#|+ on everything, when called out they get all indignant and claim the moral high ground.
 Wait till you start getting all the infernal and moronic "safety" comments.  The pet carry on of those that have no clue about the subject of the vid but want to say something anyway ( even if 20 other morons have said it before) and make themselves look important by parroting what they have seen other useless twits carry on with elsewhere.

Wish it would rain here. Haven't seen anything other than a heavy dew in at least 4 months.

skid

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #227 on: October 17, 2017, 10:57:00 PM »
George, the river can really get moving. Right now it is quite slow compared to when it gets higher. For every foot per second increase the power goes up dramatically so it doesn't have to flow 3 times as fast. 10-30% faster doubles/triples/quadruples the output (proportional to the stream velocity raised to the fifth power if that makes any sense to you).

What I find interesting is that the wheel likes to be submerged. I'll experiment with this, but need to drill a new hole for the hydraulic ram pin so I can push the wheel further into the water.

Depending on how things go I can also increase the blade size and width. I can extend the blades another two feet in diameter and another foot wider as I left room for that in the design. I just didn't know what to expect.

 Considering that low flows like I am getting currently are typical for 4-5 months of the year (See attached river chart) I may opt to increase blade size/diameter as aluminum plate is relatively inexpensive and my time is free. We'll see how things develop...




george65

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #228 on: October 18, 2017, 12:13:08 AM »
10-30% faster doubles/triples/quadruples the output (proportional to the stream velocity raised to the fifth power if that makes any sense to you).

Very interesting, I couldn't imagine it flowing proportionally faster as in 2-5X but 10-30% is a whole different thing that makes a lot of difference apparently.

Quote

Depending on how things go I can also increase the blade size and width. I can extend the blades another two feet in diameter and another foot wider as I left room for that in the design. I just didn't know what to expect.

I was wondering about width but thought that would give torque which you would have to change the gearing of the wheel to take advantage of.
If the flow you are seeing is going to be the average for 5 months of the year, would seem the time to swap cogs may  would be a little time well spent.
That's a LOT of work/ investment you have made for 900W, 22Kwh day.
I made 23 Kwh yesterday with my $1500 worth of inverters and solar panels, half of which are still lying flat on the grass as I haven't got them on the roof yet and the others are leaning against a makeshift frame of scaffold. 

You deserve a lot better returns than 900W after all the time, effort and cost that has gone into this project.  A little tweaking may go a long way.

skid

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #229 on: October 18, 2017, 01:20:01 AM »
Back in post 141 I mentioned that I should have went solar :'(

I also mentioned I hope to average 2kw over a year which should be doable based upon the outputs at low flows.

I'll find that out soon as the rainy season is starting for the next couple of months.

I'll see how things go and experiment with the wheel depth a bit. If I can average 2kw year-round I'll be where I expected to be.
 


george65

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #230 on: October 18, 2017, 03:34:48 AM »

Bah!!

Any Muppet can have solar, but to have what you do, that's REALLY cool and unique! I would really love to have a hydro setup but in practicability, I can't see that I ever will.

Seems the real hard work is done now and with just a little tweaking/ tuning, your wheel should be able to provide power well beyond your goal.  Now you get to do the fun part and see what really works for the thing and have some interesting learning experiences.
I'll bet a few little tweaks and improvements now will make a lot of difference to your output.

Certainly one of the best DIY projects I have ever seen!