Author Topic: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project  (Read 149576 times)

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keithturtle

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #33 on: October 07, 2014, 02:26:26 AM »
Gotta love progress.  I thought of your project when I came across this a few days ago.

Saw this 12' breastshot wheel at Metamora, Indiana.  About 40" wide, it produced 30 HP with 8' of fall thru an old canal lock, made of black walnut, most recent iteration 1991.

They no longer operate it; mill is powered by an electric motor now.

Interesting to see that "reuse" was in vogue even 150 years ago, when the railroad replaced the canal boat ca. 1860, as the canal lock provides the differential head for waterpower.

http://www.metamoraindiana.com/Hist_GristMill.htm

Turtle
« Last Edit: October 07, 2014, 02:31:28 AM by keithturtle »
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skid

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #34 on: October 10, 2014, 12:32:27 AM »
That's a nice old water wheel. Looks real heavy!!

I'm finished welding the wheel and installed the axle and spokes. I'll post pictures tomorrow as I finished up in the dark tonight. I'll be happy to put the spool gun away :P The wife will also be happy to get her parking spot back too ;D, as I had to weld up the wheel in the garage and not the shop (shop door wasn't big enough to get it out).

Next, weather permitting, I'll finish the rebar, form the pad, and pour the concrete before the river starts to rise with the fall rains. It's supposed to rain for the next few days...

I'll start on the stand soon as well as I have most of the materials. Still many other things to complete (cable trenching, grid tie inverter, purchase generator, etc. Overall I'm perhaps 20%-25% done

skid

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #35 on: October 10, 2014, 12:48:06 PM »
Picture of completed wheel with axle installed

keithturtle

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #36 on: October 10, 2014, 05:35:19 PM »
Looking good, bro.

From your earlier post: "I will be putting a turn-table on the top so I can swing the wheel 180 degrees to remove the wheel."

You might want to consider inner diagonal bracing from left hub to right perimeter, etc. to mitigate lateral shear forces.  Should your wheel pivot on its own in high flow, the river has a good chance of bending the crap out of your angle-stock spokes. There's plenty of strength in normal configuration, but when flow hits it sideways, those side panels will pull real hard on the hub, and the spokes will take it all.

Just a thought

Turtle
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skid

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #37 on: October 11, 2014, 12:39:30 PM »
That's definately something to consider Keith. Rather than changing the wheel design I'll make sure the turntable locks securely in position. I was originally planning on 2 drop in pins in the turntable, but on second thought I will use bolts.

skid

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #38 on: October 11, 2014, 12:57:31 PM »
I'm looking at generators now. Does anyone have any experience good or bad with Xinda Green energy?

http://www.xindaenergy.com/5Kw-50rpm-low-speed-Vertical-Permanent-Magnet-Generator-for-vertical-wind-turbine-p204.html

I've been in discussion with this company and they can change the frame of this generator to allow for horizontal mounting for my application.

skid

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #39 on: October 11, 2014, 01:05:34 PM »
I'm not sure if this has been posted before, but I came across this online calculator to determine the output of an undershot water wheel. It seems to match up well with my calculations.

http://www.borstengineeringconstruction.com/Undershot_Water_Wheel_Design_Calculator.html

In fact I may go with a slightly larger 7.5kw generator based on the calculator. I can take advantage of higher river flows as long as the  torque requirements of the generator won't stall the wheel at lower river velocities.

Mary B

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #40 on: October 11, 2014, 04:47:33 PM »
Chinese built snake oil a lot of the time. Be very careful of what you buy there because a lot of it is way over rated or is plain junk.

skid

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #41 on: October 11, 2014, 05:19:56 PM »
Mary, do you have a recommendation for a generator supplier?

skid

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #42 on: October 11, 2014, 07:33:29 PM »
Foundation rebar work in progress (sorry for the blurred pictures). I have 25m rebar on 1 foot centers across the bottom @ 6 inches elevation and across the top. The top of the rebar will be 6 inches below finished foundation height. I'll have it done today, and if the weather holds I'll have it formed up by tomorrow.

Rule of thumb is to have the foundation weigh 3x machinery weight. I'll be in the range of 5-6x.

keithturtle

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #43 on: October 11, 2014, 10:37:50 PM »
Rule of thumb is to have the foundation weigh 3x machinery weight.

Is that static or dynamic applications?

Turtle
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Mary B

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #44 on: October 12, 2014, 01:13:23 AM »
I don't know of a good supplier off the top of my head. Chinese stuff can work but it often needs to have the dried yak fat they use for grease removed then replaced with a good synthetic. Bearings may need to be replaced with better ones. I would look for user reviews on anything you decide to buy and some of the people here who make energy with water could have good sources.

Frank S

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #45 on: October 12, 2014, 01:32:12 AM »
  Having done many marine projects such as sea walls breakwaters & docks in the past,  so I am inclined to have some concerns about  your foundation
 In one of your posts you showed the water seeing into the excavation for your foundation.
 I fear that the foundation is going to be undermined over a period of time due to the close proximity of the waters edge
 I realize that there is rip-rap and a large tree upstream which should help to slow the inevitable process somewhat.
 I also understand it may have been difficult to get any large equipment to the construction site but even a small excavator with a hydraulic hammer to drive a few pieces of oilfield drill pipe into the ground as deep as they would go would have helped to act like the roots on the tree anchoring he foundation to the shore.
 Almost all slabs , roads or boat ramps that I have seen poured very near the water level,or in the water have shown evidence of undermining in very short times.
 the water contained in the soils of the banks of rivers actually flows along with the river just at a much reduced rate.
 Good luck with your project it is a very nice looking wheel so far.   
I live so far outside of the box, when I die they will stretch my carcass over the coffin

skid

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #46 on: October 12, 2014, 09:13:42 PM »
I finished forming the foundation today. Based on Frank's and Keith Turtles input I decided to increase the size. I can't really drive piles down as the river bank is mostly large rocks. The foundation will weigh close to 20,000 pounds of reinforced concrete (about 4 cubic meters). The wheel, frame, generator and counterweight will weigh in the neighborhood of 1800 pounds which is more than 10:1 machinery to foundation ratio which is very conservative.

keithturtle

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #47 on: October 12, 2014, 11:37:49 PM »
Increasing the weight of the slab is a good thing.  Now, can you offset the normal shear force in the downstream direction by cabling or otherwise tying off to an upstream tree or structure?  This way the slab will only need support vertical load, and not also need to resist the twisting action of the water trying to push the wheel downstream.

An additional cement structure may be needed if no suitable tree is available withing reach.

Just a thought, considering all the force vectors that might cause any movement/rotation of the slab, thus rapidly increasing the inevitable incidence of erosion.

BTW, what are you using to create head/fall across the wheel?  I don't recall hearing you address that yet

Turtle
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Frank S

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #48 on: October 12, 2014, 11:54:21 PM »
From what I understand he is going to rely on surface flow velocity, by undercurrent contact not over shot head fall
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keithturtle

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #49 on: October 13, 2014, 12:31:48 AM »
Oh yeah, that explains the open bucket design.

I should know better

Turtle
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skid

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #50 on: October 13, 2014, 01:25:08 AM »
I really don't expect the foundation to be undermined.The river has flown alongside that river bank for a long time. I'm not sticking out into the river as I have at least a foot of river bank between the slab and river. I will extend the wheel into the river with the nearest side at 2-3 feet away from the river bank.

Underneath the slab are large rocks, highly compacted and tightly interwoven with roots, smaller, rocks and dirt.On the very edge of the river bank are very large roots from trees that get moisture directly from the river. The roots won't wash away like sand or gravel and will hold everything together.

Of course I'll keep an eye on it and if necessary will add additional mass to the slab by tieing in to the river bank higher up.

skid

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #51 on: October 13, 2014, 01:37:55 AM »
From what I understand he is going to rely on surface flow velocity, by undercurrent contact not over shot head fall

Yep, velocity makes head. Using the Borst calculator - 10 feet/second (my lowest flows) is equal to 1.55 feet of head (2.6kw), 11 = 1.88 (4.1kw), 12 = 2.25 (6.4kw), 13 = 2.63 (9.6kw) assuming 65% efficiency.

Water flow through the wheel at 10 feet/second is roughly 20000 gallons/minute. At 12 feet/second it is near double.

skid

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #52 on: October 13, 2014, 01:40:05 AM »
Rule of thumb is to have the foundation weigh 3x machinery weight.

Is that static or dynamic applications?

Turtle

Dynamic

Nautilus

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #53 on: October 13, 2014, 09:24:14 AM »
Hi Skid - Re Generators - I am not sure of your plans for the electrical power produced, but wind generators are generally as low speed as you can get. I have used an African Wind Power PM generator and a Rebuilt 48 volt DC Jacobs on a water wheel - both worked well - There are lots of great designs out there if you want to build your own PM Generator. You will need to optimize the speed of the wheel for best performance by testing after installation - a variable field generator will help with this - as you can vary the load - If you go with a PM generator I suggest you use a MPPU to optimize speed and output- this works really well . Speed increase at the high torque you can expect is a really big deal. Check on your shaft size as you may just twist it right off - a heavy chain drive - 1.5 to 2 inch pitch diameter - makes a good first step - you can often find used horizontal gearboxes in the scrap yards - The last wheel I installed used an 8 to 1 increase gearbox. These two steps get you to the point where torque is low enough to use belts on the next step. As I recall the 12 ft breast wheel mentioned  ran on 7 ft of head at 12 rpm and produced 2 kw. We found that even steel buckets flexed a tiny bit each time the water struck them and after a couple of years we got breaks at the welds- you might want to reinforce the backside of your buckets with angle laid flat and skip welded. I like you idea of tipping the wheel out of high water - I'm not sure how you plan to do this with the generator and speed increase attached.There are photos of what high water can do to a wheel in the Gallery under US installs at (sorry, absolutely no links on your very first post: DamonHD). Very best of luck have fun. - Ron
« Last Edit: October 13, 2014, 09:58:05 AM by DamonHD »

skid

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #54 on: October 14, 2014, 01:50:06 AM »
Nautilus,

Thanks for your suggestions. I'll keep an eye on the buckets once I get operational. Please repost that link too.

The output shaft on my wheel is 2.75" so it should handle all the torque, and I will be using a 5:1 sheave set up to drive a 50 rpm generator. If necessary I can get a new sheave for the generator if I need to alter generator rpm,  but the one for the wheel won't change due to its large diameter (~5 feet) and cost.

keithturtle

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #55 on: October 16, 2014, 01:54:55 AM »
Nautilus,
Please repost that link too.

He can't.  Search nautilus water turbine.  Ron is based in Greenfield, MA.

The Niade model is what inspired my project

Turtle
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Nautilus

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #56 on: October 17, 2014, 08:28:42 AM »
Thanks Turtle - I'm not just sure what the rules are - should probably read up on it - do you have pictures of your Niade? Best Ron

DamonHD

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #57 on: October 17, 2014, 09:28:09 AM »
Hi,

Welcome!

The main rule is to play nice, which you are, so all is good!

We don't allow posting of any links that might be interpreted as commercial until you've made ~50 posts and established that you are not a horrible SPAMmer, bot, evil space alien, or whatever.

And no mention of or links to OU (Over Unity / Perpetual Motion stuff) please: in this forum we obey the laws of thermodynamics!  B^>

Rgds

Damon
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skid

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #58 on: October 17, 2014, 09:40:38 PM »
Edit - Drawing too small to see

keithturtle

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #59 on: October 17, 2014, 11:08:50 PM »
do you have pictures of your Niade?

I don't have one yet, and my flow/head drop is at the bottom of the smallest Niade's useful range.

Half of the dam washed out last year, so I'm getting wind and solar together first before I head back to the stream

Turtle, slow
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skid

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #60 on: October 21, 2014, 09:06:21 PM »
My son and I were planning to pour the concrete for the foundation this Friday. Looks like that won't be happening now.

The good news is that the forms haven't washed away yet. This may also indicate that the concern for erosion around the foundation will not be a problem. However, the river can get higher than this. In fact the forecast is for steady rain for the next 3-4 days so we'll see what happens.

The other good news is that at the current river flows of 13 feet per second, the calculator indicates about 13KW of potential power is available at 65% wheel efficiency. I may have to upsize the generator to 10kw 8)

skid

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #61 on: October 22, 2014, 08:21:55 PM »
The forms were floating last night with the rebar preventing the forms from floating away, were there this morning, but disappeared during the day. Hopefully the rebar is still intact.

The river is flowing very fast. I'm estimating 15 feet per second +


skid

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #62 on: December 07, 2014, 11:18:14 PM »
 I'll have to completely redo the rebar and forms for the foundation. The hole I dug for the foundation filled with sand when the river flooded and the rebar is is listing somewhat so I might as well take all the rebar out and redo everything. The flood season is pretty much over so hopefully I'll be able to make a pour this winter sometime.

A 7.5kw 50 rpm generator has been ordered, the SKF pillowblock bearings with self aligning spherical roller bearings are here, the 12" diameter pipe for the cantilever arm should be delivered shortly,and the 5 foot diameter drive sheave is being built.The only major components remaining to purchase are the electronics for the grid tie.

I've been working on some other unrelated projects, but will soon start to weld up the cantilever arm that will carry the water wheel. A friend has provided some engineering input and came up with a very elegant solution for the pivot and counterweight.

keithturtle

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #63 on: December 08, 2014, 01:04:52 AM »
The flood season is pretty much over so hopefully I'll be able to make a pour this winter sometime.


Were you able to record some high-level benchmarks, and possibly get some accurate velocity readings during the high-flow events?  That data will be very useful when solving future problems

Turtle
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skid

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #64 on: December 09, 2014, 01:48:36 AM »

Were you able to record some high-level benchmarks, and possibly get some accurate velocity readings during the high-flow events?  That data will be very useful when solving future problems

Turtle
[/quote]

I did get the high level mark and a rough indication of velocity. At 15 feet per second I would be making close to 30kw by the Borst calculator so I definately would have to have the wheel out of the water to avoid damaging the generator and inverter, or perhaps just dip its blades in the river an inch or two to reduce efficiency and reduce output

We're supposed to get more heavy rain all this week, so I may have been premature saying flood season is over. This time I'll get some accurate feet/second readings over a measured distance.

skid

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #65 on: January 07, 2015, 12:16:00 AM »
Well, December in the PNW was another month of heavy rain with the river reaching absolutely bank full. January has now started off with about 16 inches of snow followed by rain. I won't be working near the river for a while.

I've been doing some other projects in the meantime, but now have the the following items underway:
-Purchased two SKF spherical roller bearings and pillow blocks for the water wheel. For a 70mm shaft they are very pricey. I coated the pillow blocks with POR 15 so they won't eventually rust.
-Purchased 7.5kw PM generator. Now complete and being shipped from China as I write this.
-Fabricated 5 foot diameter drive sheave for water wheel to drive the generator. Final machining underway.
-Purchased sched 40 12" diameter x 20' long pipe for the cantilever as well as two 4"x 6" x 7 feet square tubing to hold the water wheel which will be welded to the pipe. I'll start fabricating that once I clean up the garage.
-Came up with a more sophisticated and better design for the stand to support the cantilever. It will be cast right into the concrete foundation instead of being anchored to the surface. Have purchased the materials for that and will start fabbing that as well

This is taking longer than expected, but then again all my projects seem to do that :)