Author Topic: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project  (Read 149383 times)

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skid

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #99 on: October 27, 2015, 11:41:40 PM »
This is the underside of the slide plate that will fit on top of the slotted plate attached to the cantilever pipe. The guides on the side of the slide plate will keep the generator aligned, and the jacking bolts will allow controlled tensioning of the v belts.

keithturtle

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #100 on: October 29, 2015, 04:46:39 AM »

Since I will have to make access for a crane by having to remove a few trees, I can get an excavator in as well to dig a larger foundation. I can also back in a cement truck so I don't have to mix by hand or pump it.

Crane, excavator, cement truck... cha-ching!$!

Like I said, I really, REALLY admire your determination

Turtle
soli deo gloria

MattM

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #101 on: October 29, 2015, 08:17:23 AM »
You going to hot drip protect the exterior of the steel or leave it to weather?

Frank S

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #102 on: October 29, 2015, 11:33:10 AM »
I don't ordinarily do this very much  But when it comes to the subject of galvanizing when folks think about having that done there are several things to be considered prior to any assembly or welding where other parts are to be latter attached.
 All hole tolerances must be relaxed to allow for the thickness of the process the same goes for welding assemblies. It is not so much that the process adds extra thickness but the zinc  has a way of not draining off or building up in areas that you least expect it
  Afterwards having to grind or re drill defeats the integrity of the coating.
 
 Other and often as good and sometimes better than hot dipping is simply painting with high quality paint.
  It is best to sandblast then prime then top coat but even this is not always possible.
  When sand blasting is not in the equation (which by the way should be done prior to hot dipping as well), there are products that convert scale and surface rust to serve as a base for primer. there are also products that will etch or remove most surface rust and scale.   
I've had great success with KBS products When possible I sand blast but other times I just use the KBS rustblast to remove the rust and scale then prime with their primer and top coat with their paints also for those areas where it is impossible to get paint into they have a product called cavity coater which is the same exact stuff as the Mil spec product used in cavities on military equipment and aircraft.
 for more information you can contact a very knowledgeable friend of mine through his web site. IF he doesn't know the answers to a question he will get them for you
http://kbs.justoldtrucks.com/

Frank S, I hope you don't mind! I changed the word from pain to paint :), though it can be a pain to paint sometimes ;-)
« Last Edit: October 29, 2015, 12:00:45 PM by Bruce S »
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bcalmed

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #103 on: October 29, 2015, 01:25:48 PM »
What about the possibilty of an upstream anchor - a large tree, for instance. Maybe with a laid-down sort of gin pole arrangement to allow for movement of the main boom.

skid

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #104 on: October 29, 2015, 09:25:23 PM »
The wheel is aluminum and stainless steel, so no coatings required there. The carbon steel parts are being coated with POR 15 paint which I have found to be very excellent metal paint. I got some on my fingers a week ago when I was painting and I still haven't got it off ::). It does need a top coat as it isn't UV stable...

skid

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #105 on: October 29, 2015, 09:33:54 PM »
What about the possibilty of an upstream anchor - a large tree, for instance. Maybe with a laid-down sort of gin pole arrangement to allow for movement of the main boom.

 Regarding the operation of the boom, it will pivot 180 degrees on the support post or stand, so I can put the wheel on land for servicing or removal. In addition, the hydraulics will rotate the boom so the wheel raises and lowers on the headworks as well.  Once I have it all assembled you can see what the final design is.

skid

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #106 on: October 29, 2015, 09:43:17 PM »

Since I will have to make access for a crane by having to remove a few trees, I can get an excavator in as well to dig a larger foundation. I can also back in a cement truck so I don't have to mix by hand or pump it.

Crane, excavator, cement truck... cha-ching!$!

Like I said, I really, REALLY admire your determination

Turtle

Good thing my neighbor has a crane and excavator. He owes me a few favors ;D

bcalmed

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #107 on: October 30, 2015, 04:10:09 PM »
What about the possibilty of an upstream anchor - a large tree, for instance. Maybe with a laid-down sort of gin pole arrangement to allow for movement of the main boom.

 Regarding the operation of the boom, it will pivot 180 degrees on the support post or stand, so I can put the wheel on land for servicing or removal. In addition, the hydraulics will rotate the boom so the wheel raises and lowers on the headworks as well.  Once I have it all assembled you can see what the final design is.

I meant as a less expensive substitute for driiing to the center of the earth for the post....

skid

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #108 on: November 08, 2015, 10:31:29 PM »
Having difficulty attaching pictures. I built the counterweight mount which is welded to the opposite end of the pipe as the water wheel. unfortunately I cannot attach pictures of it for some reason...
« Last Edit: November 08, 2015, 10:37:37 PM by skid »

DamonHD

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #109 on: November 09, 2015, 02:28:07 AM »
Are the images big?

Remember that some users of this site are on dial-up, so there is a size limit.

Rgds

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MattM

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #110 on: November 09, 2015, 08:26:31 AM »
Shrink them down using something like Faststone Image Viewer.  You can down sample from 5MB to 100K pretty much by shrinking them down to 1024 pixel width at 95% JPEG quality.  You can drop JPEG quality and shrink them under 50K if you play with the settings.

skid

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #111 on: November 11, 2015, 02:02:22 PM »
I reduced the pictures to 53kb each and get the following message which I also got previously:

Your attachment couldn't be saved. This might happen because it took too long to upload or the file is bigger than the server will allow.

Please consult your server administrator for more information.


DamonHD

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #112 on: November 11, 2015, 03:16:22 PM »
Hi,

I believe that some file area is full, but it is invisible to me.  (I see the errors logged but have no levers to pull to fix them.)  Someone else is on the case, but I don't know when this will be fixed.

Rgds

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skid

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #113 on: November 15, 2015, 07:31:51 PM »
 The anti rotation angles are being fit onto counterweight section of the boom. the counterweight is used as a template. The small pieces of angle on the end will be used to help align the counterweight piece to the main pipe when I weld it.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2015, 07:39:10 PM by skid »

skid

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #114 on: November 15, 2015, 07:34:08 PM »
The counterweight piece welded onto the main boom with one counterweight installed... The tapped holes in the end are for a cap which will secure the counterweights. Looking from the end one can see how it will equalize the weight of the wheel from a raising/lowering persepective, as well as equalizing the weight on either side of the center pivot.

keithturtle

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #115 on: November 18, 2015, 10:51:38 PM »
Having difficulty attaching pictures

This works well also

http://www.fotosizer.com/

Turtle
soli deo gloria

skid

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #116 on: November 22, 2015, 08:41:46 PM »
Today I installed the wheel onto the boom. basically rolled it into position, then raised the arms up. I had to remove all counterweights but one to be able to manually raise and lower the wheel arms by hand.

Once I had the bearings bolted up I installed four counterweights which still didn't provide enough force to lift the wheel. Until I prepare a few more counterweights and install them I have to raise the wheel withthe tractor and support it underneath.

Once the wheel was raised I adjusted the bearing clearances on each side so the wheel was centered in the frame. I then adjusted the pillow blocks so everything was square.

Spinning the wheel I note I have 1/2 inch run out. I'll play with the spokes to take that out. I'll get a couple of tiger torches (500000btu's each) and spin the wheel and heat the aluminum wheel to stress relieve it first.

skid

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #117 on: November 22, 2015, 08:48:06 PM »
Once side of the hub has a longer shaft to support the large 63" sheave. I greased both the sheave and the shaft and installed the sheave.

skid

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #118 on: November 22, 2015, 08:55:28 PM »
The sheave's bore is machined so 1/2 the width of the hub is a few thousands of an inch larger than the shaft to align it square on the shaft. The other 1/2 is machined to allow a taper locking device (Ringfeder) to lock it into position on the shaft.

Once I install the generator and align both sheaves I'll lock both sheaves onto their respective shafts. That'll be next weekend's project if the weather is decent.

thirteen

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #119 on: November 22, 2015, 09:31:52 PM »
well the drive be completely covered? What type of belt( s ) drive will you have? Just wondering. 13
MntMnROY 13

thirteen

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #120 on: November 22, 2015, 09:38:43 PM »
I did not send this  but I did not see any key in the shaft for the pulleys. I may have missed it. 13
MntMnROY 13

skid

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #121 on: November 22, 2015, 10:28:43 PM »
I did not send this  but I did not see any key in the shaft for the pulleys. I may have missed it. 13

There is no key on the big pulley/sheave. It uses a taper lock device made by Ringfeder of Germany.The generator uses a standard taper lock with a key on the shaft.

There will be 3 V-belts driving the generator. Each V-belt is a 1" wide 8V (8 for 8/8th inches wide) by 5600 long (5.6 meters). Because of the low rpm and high torque, this much belt is required.

There will be no cover over the drive assembly. At least nothing planned yet...

skid

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #122 on: November 29, 2015, 04:07:39 PM »
I installed the generator and lined up both pulleys. I used the ringfeder to lock the big pulley onto the shaft (1st picture). Went to put the belts on and found I made a mistake in length. I need shorter belts and will have to return the longer ones. Anyways, I have a few more counterweights to prepare, and have to splice my power cable. That's likely as far as I will get this year. The weather here has cooled off and the ground is frozen. Once things warm up in a few months I'll trench the cable and dig a bigger foundation.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2015, 04:15:18 PM by skid »

hiker

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #123 on: November 30, 2015, 01:21:58 AM »
What about a spring loaded belt tensionor.....their always handy to have...saves you from always having to move your motor up a notch...
WILD in ALASKA

keithturtle

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #124 on: December 04, 2015, 12:58:21 PM »
Anyways, I have a few more counterweights to prepare

OK then Skid, maybe not.  What about using the gen head as part of the counterweight?  Mount a few pillow block bearings along the support and run a driveshaft/torquetube/jackshaft; lovejoy direct couple the gen on the other side of the pivot.  Calculate the moments and you take lots of stress off of your perch, I would think.  Sure, you'll lose a little in friction, but it would be much, much lighter.

Turtle, losing weight
soli deo gloria

skid

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #125 on: December 05, 2015, 12:01:31 AM »
Anyways, I have a few more counterweights to prepare

OK then Skid, maybe not.  What about using the gen head as part of the counterweight?  Mount a few pillow block bearings along the support and run a driveshaft/torquetube/jackshaft; lovejoy direct couple the gen on the other side of the pivot.  Calculate the moments and you take lots of stress off of your perch, I would think.  Sure, you'll lose a little in friction, but it would be much, much lighter.

Thanks Keith Turtle,

For sure I have thought of that. It would also save on the generator front bearing not being side loaded with the belt. However the center pivot mount with the hydraulics will get in the way.

I had an engineering friend run a few calculations and the 12" pipe will be heavily loaded with the weight of everything as well as the twisting from the counterweights. I had to beef up the pipe in the area of the center pivot by inserting it into the heavy wall center mount pipe. But it will work according to him...

skid

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #126 on: December 05, 2015, 12:10:45 AM »
What about a spring loaded belt tensionor.....their always handy to have...saves you from always having to move your motor up a notch...

That's a good idea, and as you say will save many small adjustments in the future and prevent damaging the belts from slippage. Once I get this thing working I may just do that...

skid

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #127 on: January 31, 2016, 07:47:32 PM »
I installed all 11 counterweights, hung them on the boom, and installed the end cap. Also installed the belts, tensioned them and tightened up the generator mount. The only thing left on the boom assembly is to install the 12V hydraulic power unit so I can adjust the wheel elevation as the river level changes, tube in 2 grease lines for the wheel bearings so I can grease them from shore and give it a final paint job. I just used whatever metal paint I had laying around for now.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2016, 07:58:46 PM by skid »

skid

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #128 on: January 31, 2016, 08:29:22 PM »
I erred when I mentioned that V belts were mentioned in millimeters. :-[ They are measured in inches... I ended up requiring 8V3000 belts which are 300 inches long in circumference. Darn metric system here keeps messing me up... >:( That and my old timers...;D

There will be 3 V-belts driving the generator. Each V-belt is a 1" wide 8V (8 for 8/8th inches wide) by 5600 long (5.6 meters). Because of the low rpm and high torque, this much belt is required.

andreiandrei53

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #129 on: March 02, 2016, 05:07:50 AM »
Hello Skid,

How is your project? Have you been doing some advancement from you last post?

Keep up the good work!

skid

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #130 on: March 19, 2016, 09:47:42 PM »
Andrei,

I've done a few things, but mostly background stuff as it has been relentlessly raining in the PNW until the last couple of days.

I purchased a12V hydraulic pump, fittings, and battery to raise/lower the wheel - now I need to determine how to mount everything as the pump will need to be protected from our heavy rains.

I've got most of my permitting in place from 3 levels of gov't - What a hassle that's been. I had to get a qualified environmental professional to write reports for both municipal, provincial and federal regulators. Luckily I know some people in the field so some of the work was done gratis, bit I still had to shell out cash regardless as they had to write very in depth reports (potential for killing fish during all life stages whether resident fish like trout or anadromous fish like salmon, erosion, loss of fish habitat, obstruction of a navigable waterway, installation of structures below the high water mark, construction access and hazards, etc., etc.).

The last couple of days I have been hand trenching and spliced the power cable that will connect to the waterwheel. I had to hand trench around my house, under a side walk, around all the trees and shrubs, and through two lockblock retaining walls. The hot tub felt good on my aching back last night... Now I can rent a power trencher and do rest to the river (approx. 80 meters).

Once the weather gets better I'll complete the waterwheel and start again on the foundation. I'm going bigger than before on the foundation as well. I still have to by a couple of disconnects, a 30 Amp thermal breaker,  and other electrical bits. I hope to have everything in place and running by the end of summer...

Ungrounded Lightning Rod

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #131 on: March 20, 2016, 10:20:42 PM »
While you've got the trench open, lay some extra conduit.  (You can tie a cotton ball or a puff of tissue to a piece of twine and blow a pilot for a pull line down it later.)  Then, if something fails, or you want to add some instrumentation, you don't have to dig things up again.

(This is like the "Dark Fiber" phenomenon in telecom, where something like 95% of the buried fiber is "dark".  It's spares.  Most of the cost of a build-out is digging the trench around the country and back-and-forth across it.  While you've got it open, it costs you only a few percent more to lay a whole BUNCH of fiber (and several parallel runs of empty contuit), for the next century's expansion.  MUCH cheaper than only installing what you need for the next three years and then digging up the country again.)

Lay a water pipe or two, also.  If you have the flow for a poncelet you also have the flow or bit of head needed to run a hydraulic ram and pump river water up an arbitrary amount of hill for watering your lawn (or whatever else it's good for).  With the pipe in you can install the ram when/if you have/get the right to use the river water for some useful purpose (if you don't have it already).  (Meanwhile you can use the pipe to bring down water from your current supply for hand-washing, site cleanup, drinking at the site, etc.)

If you've already closed things up between the house and where the trench will start, just run the conduit/pipe/etc to the near end of the trench, cap it off, bury it, but make sure there's a way to locate it again later, if/when you have the time and circumstance to finish the run and use it for something.  And if you never get around to it, you're only out a little.  Conduit and pipe are cheap.  A trench is a terrible thing to waste.