Author Topic: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project  (Read 149583 times)

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skid

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #132 on: March 21, 2016, 01:59:50 AM »
ULR you are absolutely right about laying in extra cable and pipe when a trench is open. This is my second trench to the river now; the first was for my 3" PVC irrigation piping which I'll probably hit when I'm digging my waterwheel trench ::) 

I won't run power out there (which I'll probably regret) but will run 6 wire instrumentation cable for a future camera and maybe a river level sensor. I will have 12V battery power  with a 20W solar charger to operate the hydraulic pump...

keithturtle

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #133 on: April 14, 2016, 11:32:24 PM »
I'm going bigger than before on the foundation as well.

Good thought; maybe even bigger.  Like the open trench, a few extra yards of cement with some more depth to the base will be cheap insurance, given the consequence failure will present.

The persistent power of high flow is hard to estimate, especially for extended periods of time.

Keep up the good work

Turtle
soli deo gloria

skid

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #134 on: May 12, 2016, 11:27:32 PM »
I haven't posted anything new for a while, but have been getting the final pieces for my grid tie inverter wiring. I now have a 3 phase thermal breaker rated at 16.7 to 20 amps (generator output is 18), surge arrestors, a 30 amp disconnect, and some other bits and pieces. I'm waiting for a couple of Teck cable connectors from ebay and i'll finish the tie in to my breaker box. I'll wire it similar to this wind turbine without the single phase stop switch at the turbine to brake it...


David HK

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #135 on: May 13, 2016, 06:53:33 AM »
Skid,

Just a curiosity question, but have you got everything sorted out with the utility company for the grid tie arrangement?

Likewise, your insurance cover.

Dave

skid

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #136 on: May 14, 2016, 12:39:19 AM »
I have to meet the Canadian Electrical Code and must use UL or CSA components on the grid tie equipment which my ABB inverter meets. I have passed the wiring diagram in my last post by the local electrical inspector who has approved it. He will inspect it before going live. Doing that meets the criteria of my provincial utility. As far as insurance, as long as I meet electrical code I'm covered...

skid

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #137 on: May 29, 2016, 05:17:42 PM »
Terminated the 6 gauge cable from the waterwheel generator into the thermal breaker today, and installed 1 of the surge arrestors in the wind box. Need to get another couple more tech connectors to complete the wiring. The photo shows how I have mounted the inverter and other equipment onto my house near the breaker box.

skid

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #138 on: July 05, 2016, 08:18:35 PM »
Rented a trencher today and trenched the power cable for the waterwheel from my retaining wall to my property line. Due to regulations around instream work I cannot work below the high water mark until after August 15 when salmon fry are no longer in the river. I'll dig more into the river bank (with an excavator this time!) and prepare the concrete forms in late August. Hopefully I can have the wheel operational later this fall...
« Last Edit: July 05, 2016, 08:23:57 PM by skid »

skid

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #139 on: July 05, 2016, 08:29:54 PM »
Found my PVC irrigation pipe too! The trencher chain went right through it. >:( :o :P

keithturtle

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #140 on: July 13, 2016, 12:21:21 AM »
Good to see progress. Before long the vision will be realized

Turtle
soli deo gloria

skid

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #141 on: August 20, 2016, 03:37:15 PM »
I haven't done anything in a while as I have been waiting for the gov'ts blessing and license of occupation and water license. It looks like everything is a go, but the gov't regulators are trying to bleed me dry with all the fees associated with their approvals.

I have to pay about $750 for the application and License of Occupation (LOO) for my 3x2 meter concrete pad, as I only own land to the high water mark. The gov't owns the land from the high water mark down to the river. I also have to put down a $5k deposit to ensure that when I relinquish the land and hand it back to the gov't I will restore it to its natural state. The LOO is good for 30 years.  I also have to get commercial liability insurance with 2mil minimum coverage. Don't know what that will cost yet :-\

In addition I have to pay an annual fee for my water license based on how much water my wheel will use. Since it is low head I use lots of water. My license fees will be ~$750/year minimum. In also have to do an operational assessment for the first year of running, which means hiring a biologist to determine whether it is harmful to aquatic life.

All for 9.9 cents/kilowatt hour which is what the utility will pay me. I hope to average 2kw over the year so I will make a little over $2k annually. Discouraging... I should have went with solar... However I am pretty committed at this point and will see it through. Hopefully I can sell one of my kids for the $5k deposit to get things rolling again ;D

frackers

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #142 on: August 20, 2016, 07:06:20 PM »
In addition I have to pay an annual fee for my water license based on how much water my wheel will use.

I would suggest that you measure how much water is in the creek upstream of the wheel and the same below and hence prove that you are not actually 'using' any water at all.
Robin Down Under (Or Are You Up Over)

george65

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #143 on: August 21, 2016, 03:43:31 AM »
In addition I have to pay an annual fee for my water license based on how much water my wheel will use.

I would suggest that you measure how much water is in the creek upstream of the wheel and the same below and hence prove that you are not actually 'using' any water at all.

I was thinking the same thing myself.
If you were " using"  the water, where would it be going or ending up?  If you installed 100 waterwheels, how much water would be removed from the river and therefore available for other people?

I thought the idea of a water licence was to keep control of the amount of water people were taking from the river so the thing wasn't sucked dry.
In the case of " what if everyone had a water wheel?"  Then the river still wouldn't be affected at all!

I realise this is a another revenue raiser but I'd be doing all I could to throw it right back at them.

skid

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #144 on: August 21, 2016, 01:47:47 PM »
Thanks for the comments George and Frackers. You are correct in that I am not diverting water like a typical hydro installation would. However, I did try that argument and it didn't work with the gov't.

The person in charge of my water license did some pretty fancy math using a chord of a circle based on the submergence of the wheel and determined that my water wheel would use 38.5 million cubic meters of water a year. The residential water license fee is $0.02/1000cubic meters which doesn't seem like much but when you use 38 mil it adds up..


Mary B

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #145 on: August 21, 2016, 09:41:18 PM »
I would be appealing that to the courts... if th ewater is being returned to the river it is not being used!

george65

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #146 on: August 22, 2016, 04:38:34 AM »
I would be appealing that to the courts... if th ewater is being returned to the river it is not being used!

I agree.
I never take the illogical decisions of one power tripper as gospel.  Over and over again in my life I have found that so many of these rules of large entity's are made up by the person you talk to as they go along.  Ask someone else and you get a totally different answer. Do not take the answer of one person without verifying it with another.
I would want to be seeing the rules and regulations for a start and then seeing if they even added up.

I would also be pushing the greenwashed, save the planet angle for all it was worth to your advantage. Start crying about them being anti green and environmentalism and you are just trying to provide renewable energy and that sort of line and it may be enough.

If you don't get anywhere, then I'd look at selling the amount of water you are supposedly " Using" to someone else who actually takes the water for irrigation etc. Let them measure how much you have consumed and then try to argue that in court.

David HK

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #147 on: August 22, 2016, 04:51:55 AM »
Yes, you could say that the water is not being used, but it is being harnessed. It is also not consumed by animal, bird or human in another context.

I suspect clever lawyers could find your case very interesting.

I wonder how massive dam owners get on with this sort of situation. Take the Boulder Dam and many others for example. I suppose they provide power to the public grid whereas you're providing power to your self. Could you share any excess power that you might generate?

Regards,

Dave in Hong Kong

joestue

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #148 on: August 23, 2016, 03:19:31 AM »
Take the Boulder Dam and many others for example

they are grandfathered in, i really don't know of any new major dams that have been built anywhere in the usa, and many have been torn down rather than rebuilt.

we have "salmons" streams in washington state that are dry 9 months out of the year, and always have been as long as anyone can remember.
My wife says I'm not just a different colored rubik's cube, i am a rubik's knot in a cage.

keithturtle

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #149 on: August 25, 2016, 10:53:45 PM »
but the gov't regulators are trying to bleed me dry with all the fees associated with their approvals.


Government cannot give money to anyone, but that they first take it away from someone else.

Too bad you must fund [...]

I like David's take on it

Turtle
soli deo gloria

electrondady1

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #150 on: August 26, 2016, 08:55:42 AM »
quantitative easing is a term that every one should become familiar with .
they ran out of ideas on how to stimulate the economy. so in the U.S. and europe, central banks print money and give it to their friends.
well, they don't really print it. it just shows up on computer screens inside other banks.
it's helicopter money
of course, it is real debt and the next generation must pay it back . but not the banksters.
 they buy real estate.

 

12AX7

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #151 on: August 26, 2016, 07:40:48 PM »
Hello!

Could you elaborate on  " The gov't owns the land from the high water mark down to the river"

Is this land that doesn't belong to you,  or are they saying that they control the (your)  land to the high water mark.

ALSO,  elaborate  on "high water mark".   How/where is that determined/defined?  Is the 'high water mark'  the same as the 100 year flood or 'flood plain?".

The highest point on my lot is still seven feet below local flood plain.


David HK

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #152 on: August 28, 2016, 01:22:30 AM »
This story is peculiarly interesting.

Let's look at some more simple aspects.

A person owns a piece of land which includes a stream arriving at point A and leaving at point B on the property. But who owns the water? The water is flowing in at A and out at B and never stops. (Exclude freezing for the purpose of the argument). Flowing water is not really a tangible thing which makes it difficult to argue about.

Underground water which can be pumped up for irrigation on private land may actually source from other land so who owns it?

A river flows through a country and touches endless public and private boundaries. Who owns what part of the river bed? Who owns the water?

Other ‘rights' associate with water such as fishing rights. Who owns the fish as they could be swimming anywhere – upstream, downstream and so on.

In previous notes the word ‘use(s)' is mentioned as a basis for calculations. This has now become a simplistic word in a very complicated society. Renewable energy is not so new but more and more people are tinkering with it.

Perhaps this note will attract some interesting responses.

David

zracer

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #153 on: August 28, 2016, 01:39:54 PM »
Very broad questions that would have different answers based on the location. What would be interesting is hearing more updates from the OP about his project.

zracer

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #154 on: August 28, 2016, 01:52:19 PM »
Thanks for the comments George and Frackers. You are correct in that I am not diverting water like a typical hydro installation would. However, I did try that argument and it didn't work with the gov't.

The person in charge of my water license did some pretty fancy math using a chord of a circle based on the submergence of the wheel and determined that my water wheel would use 38.5 million cubic meters of water a year. The residential water license fee is $0.02/1000cubic meters which doesn't seem like much but when you use 38 mil it adds up..

Just to use the water would cost $770 per year? There are many benefits to having a kick ass hydro setup like that. I'm curios, how much would your electric company charge you to use the amount being generated for the same period of time?

skid

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #155 on: August 28, 2016, 11:51:05 PM »


Just to use the water would cost $770 per year? There are many benefits to having a kick ass hydro setup like that. I'm curios, how much would your electric company charge you to use the amount being generated for the same period of time?
[/quote]

My annual electrical bill is around $2500/year

Could you elaborate on  " The gov't owns the land from the high water mark down to the river"

Is this land that doesn't belong to you,  or are they saying that they control the (your)  land to the high water mark.

ALSO,  elaborate  on "high water mark".   How/where is that determined/defined?  Is the 'high water mark'  the same as the 100 year flood or 'flood plain?".

My lot corner pins are located at the high water mark of the river bank. Apparently that is how they survey lots in British Columbia. The river is down the bank approx. 10 feet down and 25 feet away from the pins. That is considered Crown Land owned by the provincial gov't. For me to place a structure  on it I have to get a License of Occupation. The high water mark is basically when the river is bank full and ready to flood onto the flood plain.

skid

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #156 on: August 28, 2016, 11:57:52 PM »
Still moving forward:

Today I completed wiring the inverter into my house panel. Need to get that inspected by the electrical inspector now.

The next item to complete is installing the hydraulic pump onto the wheel support structure. I'll hopefully complete that sometime this week as I have all the parts except the hoses which I'll make up once I place everything in position.

That's about as far as I can go until I get my licenses. Once I get the licenses I will form the concrete pad and pour it and install the wheel. Sounds easy ;)

Bruce S

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #157 on: August 29, 2016, 08:49:13 AM »
SKID;
Thank you for getting this back on the track you started with.
I was just at the point where I thought I "might" have to jump into my GM MODE britches and ask that posters please refrain from political conversations.

PS>>> Glad you're moving forward and getting things sorted out.

Cheers
Bruce S
A kind word often goes unsaid BUT never goes unheard

zracer

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #158 on: September 29, 2016, 02:07:45 PM »
Out of curiosity, what will the hydraulic pump be used for?

skid

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #159 on: October 01, 2016, 07:53:54 PM »
Out of curiosity, what will the hydraulic pump be used for?

The hydraulic pump will drive the hydraulic cylinder that will raise and lower the wheel in the water. The cylinder has a 3 foot stroke so with it located on the short end of the fulcrum will be able to raise and lower the wheel almost 10 feet. This large range of motion will allow the wheel to clear river elevations even at bank full+ flood heights.

I still haven't attached it  as I have been super busy at work and on my farm, but once I do I'll get pictures of it.

andreiandrei53

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #160 on: December 13, 2016, 08:30:05 AM »
Hello Skid,

Just curious, how's the project advancing?

Cheers!

skid

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #161 on: December 31, 2016, 02:16:19 PM »
It's been two years since I applied, but I finally received my License of Occupation and my Conditional Water license which is the gov't's blessing to proceed with the project. Unbelievably there are still additional conditions which I must meet before I proceed.

I must send the "Water Manager" (which is the name of the gov't position which grants the license):
a) Plans for the works to be constructed signed and sealed by a professional engineer,
b) Schedule for the construction of the works,
c) Name and contact information for the appointed construction level environmental monitor,
d) Operational Environmental monitoring plan (OEMP) designed by a qualified environmental professional biologist to assess the impacts of the water wheel on juvenile salmonid out migration.

Once I get the wheel operational there are further items which I must complete within one year including:
1) Summary of the (OEMP)
2) Operating Parameters and Procedures Report (basically maintenance checks, flood management, etc.)
3) receive final leave of operations.

They sure aren't making things easy. The good news is that the licenses are good for my lifetime (30 and 40 years respectively) and are transferrable. I also have engineering and biologist contacts which I can use for hopefully reasonable costs.


george65

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #162 on: December 31, 2016, 08:01:49 PM »
You certainly have more patience than I but can't say more than that for fear of being chastised for being " Political".

How much to you envisage this project saving you on power a year and what do you estimate the payback time on your investment?

skid

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #163 on: January 02, 2017, 02:29:34 PM »
I'll have a better idea of the payback once I get it into the water and see how it works. I'm pretty sure I'll cover my own electrical needs. How much I'll export is the question.

andreiandrei53

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #164 on: June 27, 2017, 08:32:48 AM »
Hello Skid,

Any news regarding your project? The time really passes and i'd love to hear more recent news  :)

Cheers,