Author Topic: Newb need help  (Read 5452 times)

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stomper

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Newb need help
« on: August 15, 2014, 03:00:21 AM »
Hi, i'm from Northern Quebec and i need your help.

I'm new to renewables so here's my situation, i got a hunting cabin 2km from my house and i need power for my netbook, a router, LED light and a water pump. The only thing i need all day is the router because my phone is working on voip and i dont want to pay 60$/month for a cellphone, it works on 5v 1A. The light is mostly at night and the computer is only when it rain and it's too boring to go outside. The water pump is to pump water from the river to take a shower and the toilet.

So i was thinking about getting some deep discharge battery and something to charge them, i dont like a generator because i would need to haul fuel and the noise.

I dont get much wind since i'm in the woods and solar panel is an option but i was thinking about hydro power.

As you can see on the picture below i'm 20 feet from a small river and the beavers built a dam and reservoir upstream so the river is almost always flowing at the same rate , i can't build a dam myself or disturb the river but i have enough water flowing to get a 4 inch pipe and 6f of head, i used this chart to get 66GPM

so 6ft = 1.82m
     66GPM = 250l/s

This calculator say;
At 60% system efficiency (2678 Watts) of generated electricity

So what would be my best option at this point? I'm a welder/machinist with a lot of tools, got a plasma and AC/DC tig i can weld aluminum and S.S.
My budget is around twice the cost of a propane generator so +/- 2000$
Everything has to be hauled with an ATV + 4X8 trailer so a big water wheel is a challenge to get on site, also i cannot distrub the river because of provincial law, but i'm allowed to put a 4 inch pipe to get water in my cabin, since the law dont talk about how much water i can take i guess i can get a 4inch pipe flowing all day.












stomper

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Re: Newb need help
« Reply #1 on: August 15, 2014, 03:08:42 AM »

joestue

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Re: Newb need help
« Reply #2 on: August 15, 2014, 04:59:26 AM »
i'm afraid you got your units wrong.
more like 15 liters per second or 1/3rd hp theoretical.

for the amount of work and cost solar is a much better option.
consider buying a box of used lithium ion laptop batteries (which are generally regarded as lower self discharge rate) then new lead acid
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Harold in CR

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Re: Newb need help
« Reply #3 on: August 15, 2014, 09:18:45 AM »

 How high above the river is the cabin located ?? Might consider a Ram Pump for the water, which will take most of the Electrical load off your proposed system. Google hydraulic ram pump on youtube. Just need the pump and tank of some sort at the cabin and the piping.

stomper

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Re: Newb need help
« Reply #4 on: August 15, 2014, 12:37:31 PM »
indeed i'm wrong 66GPM = 4.16 l/s it seems my formula was wrong so the 4 inch pipe is not a very good idea it seems i would need like a 12 inch pipe to get enough water :)

Solar wont give me much power since the cabin is in the woods surrounded by trees and i use it mostly in fall when the Sun shine 1 or 2 days/week if i'm lucky but the river is flowing 24/7/365. and solar panel efficiency so far north i dont believe i can get much power, it's like asking santa to power his cabin with solar energy.

The cabin floor is level with the top of the river, so i only need to get the water up like 8 feet into a plastic tub for later use, i will use rain water also but i dont think it's enough water to take a shower.

Ive seen a water wheel powering a small 300W generator with less water than what i have so i can't see how Solar would be better.

If the water pump use the mechanical energy of the river to pump some water 8 feet into the tub the only load left is the router at 5V 1A + the computer 1-2h per day when it rain.


If i was closer i would bring electricity from my home to the cabin it would be easier but 2KM is a lot of cable and i dont think i will still get 120V with 2km of wire.


A 100W solar panel cost 400$ here, so for 2000$ i get like 3-4 panel (3-400W) + controller + battery and the solar panel will charge the battery like 10 hours per week if i'm lucky.

I might be wrong on the solar thing but as i said i dont see the sun shine much in fall so unless these panel generate some power under heavy clouds i can't see it powering a pump + router + computer maybe i should stick with the propane generator and the noise :(

I'll take some time today to get a more precise mesurement of the flow for the entire river to see if there's hope because with my first idea i get around 45W of power wich is nothing i could use a pedal bike to produce more power.


DamonHD

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Re: Newb need help
« Reply #5 on: August 15, 2014, 01:16:20 PM »
This suggests (though I may be reading it wrong, and their definition of sun-hour may not match mine):

http://www.currentresults.com/Weather/Canada/Quebec/sunshine-annual-average.php

that you get twice as much sun as I do in London (UK), at 1 sun hour average per winter day here.

In which case, if you are worried about generation while overcast, consider nearly-horizontal (ie pointing straight up) amorphous panels.  Note that generation under these conditions is typically 10% of rated value.

Look at the green line in this graph of the PV output on my local school:

http://www.earth.org.uk/out/weekly/KAPV.png

and see how it goes up in winter with more cloudy days; that's the amorphous (ie, NOT polycrystalline or monocrystalline) doing its stuff.

I run my (ADSL/WiFi) router on under 8W and my primary server on less than 2W and my laptop on typically 10W or less.

Rgds

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stomper

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Re: Newb need help
« Reply #6 on: August 15, 2014, 01:48:37 PM »
not related to the post but this is what power my home, this one is the LG-2 Dam, made a visit last year, everything is free in the James-Bay, camp site, dam visit, fishing, but it cost me 800$ of gas to get there  :-\








stomper

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Re: Newb need help
« Reply #7 on: August 15, 2014, 02:47:06 PM »
DamonHD i might have underestimated solar

so my netbook is using 40W, the router 5W, the LED light 20W, the water pump could be a small 5W water pump (they say head up to 220cm and 350L/H) filling the tub.

if im using the netbook let's say 2h/day the router always on, LED light 5h in winter, and water pump 1h or with extra load

5W/h x 24h = 120
5W/h x 1h = 5
40w/h x 2h= 80
20w/h x 5h= 100

305wh / day


37% sun    1763H   285D

Here i'm lost in the calculation  ;D

 

If i'm using a controller with dump load i could power a small water pump from the solar panel when my battery is full or power it manually with the battery if i see the level dropping too low?








Harold in CR

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Re: Newb need help
« Reply #8 on: August 15, 2014, 02:54:02 PM »
 If you have 6 feet of "head" from the highest point that water can be captured, you have plenty of hydraulic water power to push that water much higher than 6 feet, probably closer to 12 feet high. at 24 hrs of pumping, you could get a few watts from the overflow. Would take some figuring out, but, 10 watts of overflow, into a tiny hydro generator, is 240 Watts into a deep cycle battery.

mab

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Re: Newb need help
« Reply #9 on: August 15, 2014, 03:01:16 PM »
if you can store water in a tank you could use a 'hydraulic ram' pump to fill the tank as it is powered directly by the water going through it. that would leave the solar / battery for the router/ netbook/LED light.

Only problem is the ready made ram pumps I've seen are not very cheap. You can make your own, largely from standard plumbing as they're not very complicated, but the valves may take a bit of careful construction and tweaking if it is to work reliably.

DamonHD

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Re: Newb need help
« Reply #10 on: August 15, 2014, 03:48:38 PM »
Hi,

If you are likely to be using about 300Wh per day (a newer laptop and LED light might halve their contributions) then maybe 200Wp of amorphous/thin-film solar with a good MPPT controller/charger and a few days' worth of storage might do you well, as a guess.

Rgds

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hydrosun

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Re: Newb need help
« Reply #11 on: August 17, 2014, 03:01:39 PM »
Calculating how much power you want to use      gives 120 wh for the router, 30 wh for the 30gallons water per day, 12 watts times 6 hours for 72 watts for the lights, and laptop 30 watts time 2 hours is 60 watthours for a total of 282 watts so about 12 watts peer hour.
Running 2000 feet with 22 ga phone wire at 1/10th amp at 120 volt would drop 6 volts, or 5%. Using that into a switching power supply for the router and a trickle charger into a 12 volt battery for lights, pump and laptop charger.
The wire doesn't need to be a phone wire but it is a common water proof small wire. Put a   .5 amp fast blow fuse on the input. That may be the low cost way to meet your minimum power needs. 
The hydro could put out about 30 watts if efficient. That gives you over 700wh per day. So double what you need. So your design could be less than optimum and still work. Your head is less than most peltons are designed for and your flow is less than most propeller inside a pipe designs use. A propeller inside a 4 inch pipe coupled to a slow speed dc motor should work. The propeller is a faster rpm than a pelton. You'll have to experiment with the proper dc motor. If the output is less than desired then check the output voltage when not connected to battery. If it is close to 24 volts then you have the proper motor and the low output is caused by something else. If the voltage is low then you need a slower speed motor or need to rewind with more windings of smaller wire.

hiker

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Re: Newb need help
« Reply #12 on: August 17, 2014, 04:18:16 PM »
build a floating waterwheel off site--powered by any number of small dc motors-treadmill motor might work-large pulley on waterwheel.
break it down and transport to site..if you only need a few watts ..this should do it............
dont need a heavy dudy  setup..just make the wheel from plywood..waterproof it...styrofoam floats..
WILD in ALASKA

Ungrounded Lightning Rod

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Re: Newb need help
« Reply #13 on: August 17, 2014, 08:22:27 PM »
if you can store water in a tank you could use a 'hydraulic ram' pump to fill the tank as it is powered directly by the water going through it. that would leave the solar / battery for the router/ netbook/LED light.

Only problem is the ready made ram pumps I've seen are not very cheap. You can make your own, largely from standard plumbing as they're not very complicated, but the valves may take a bit of careful construction and tweaking if it is to work reliably.

Or just use ball check valves.  Mount one so the flow goes through it "backward", positioned with gravity holding it open under zero flow, for the waste valve.

If I understand the ol' "Water Goat" correctly (not having made one myself):

If the cycle time is large compared to the round-trip time of sound in the drive pipe, the waste valve
closing flow rate (and to a much lesser extent the opening residual pressure) controls the on time,
while the pressure ratio controls the on-versus-off duty cycle.

As long as the waste valve closes at some point below the maximum flow rate, the pump will operate,
and with good efficiency.  Lengthening the cycle by adjusting the waste valve to close at
higher flow increases the available output flow rate.  But if the check valve closes at a flow
rate that gives you adequate output flow you're fine.  (Adjusting a ball-check waste valve consists
of adjusting the the angle of the valve - vertical being longest cycle - or somehow making the
check ball heavier if you want it to close later than it does if it's straight-up vertical.)

With gravity replacing springs there's little to get out of adjustment.

(By the way:  "Water Goat" was allegedly a classic mistranslation of "Hydraulic Ram" by an
early English-to-German engineering paper trandlation program.)
« Last Edit: August 17, 2014, 08:30:25 PM by Ungrounded Lightning Rod »