Author Topic: Ni-Fe battery price  (Read 17368 times)

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isee

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Ni-Fe battery price
« on: January 12, 2015, 01:42:54 AM »
Hi All, I happened upon one of Ian's posts, promoting the Ni-Fi batteries. I work in the European power industry and was chatting to colleagues about storing the negatively priced power (once in a while electricity companies pay you to take their power off their hands in wholesale). And it was more of a theoretical cost exercise rather than actually arbitraging this relatively rare occurrence, but it got me into reading about various power storage solutions that could be used on micro/domestic level. One of which was the ni-Fi battery and it almost sounds too good to be true. So having now spent about 6 hours reading up on the tech I have also found a supplier of these beauties in Russia so my question is this (forgive the long prelude)

What sort of demand for them is really out there and what kind of price point would make them a competitor to the more common lead acid batteries?

I have looked at the Edison-iron's proposition of 300ah 12v bank for $2,900 and reckon that if the Russian supplied quote is correct i could get them shipped to EU/US for a retail price of about $2000, possibly a bit less, depending on the incidental costs like shipping and taxes. I guess I am asking if anyone would have any interest in doing a group order or something as I have no need for them other than being a geek and a tinkerer (built my own 3d printer, a drone, a solar collector etc)

isee

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Re: Ni-Fe battery price
« Reply #1 on: January 12, 2015, 01:52:36 AM »
The batteries in question are manufactured by the Kursk plant and from their website:
  • metal. shock resistant case
  • temp range: -20C to 40C
  • simple to service

[/list]

DamonHD

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Re: Ni-Fe battery price
« Reply #2 on: January 12, 2015, 03:00:52 AM »
1) I believe that NiFe round-trip efficiency is similar to (say) lead-acid (~75%) which is not especially attractive since you still end up paying for transmission capacity and the like.

2) I have recently been pricing up deployment of MWh-scale batteries on the grid for the sorts of situations you describe and more generally for grid balancing and day-ahead pricing arbitrage.  My feeling is that NiFe isn't going to cut it (ahem!), but I'd interested to hear evidence otherwise.

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isee

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Re: Ni-Fe battery price
« Reply #3 on: January 12, 2015, 03:25:24 AM »
Oh absolutely, I was simply giving background info as to how I stumbled upon the subject of Ni-Fe batteries. it was probably completely unnecessary. But seeing as I only just opened this forum account to post this one subject, I thought I would address the sceptics.

i did some back of the fag packet calculation and it works out at a 10 year + payback period, before we even look at future value of money calculations for peak/off-peak arbitrage.

I was simply checking if there is any interest out there for retail/home users in placing a large group order of these if the price can be beaten significantly (and for bargaining power), seeing as I personally have no use for them other than purely hobby interests, it would make little sense for me to order just one cell. But having been very impressed by Ian's feedback as well as other forums out here, I thought it might help a lot of people if I lent my Russian connections as well as doing business in Russia experience to ship these over to the EU and US. Especially since they look a lot higher quality than the more expensive and plastic alibaba counterpart.

Correct me if I am wrong but from having looked at various forum posts, the biggest problem with the Ni-Fe batteries is their purchase price and physical size, otherwise they are superior to other alternatives for backup and off grid power storage in every conceivable way?

Flux

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Re: Ni-Fe battery price
« Reply #4 on: January 12, 2015, 05:00:27 AM »
NiFe have some advantages but are far from perfect. Probably the lead acid has survived because when you include the cost it is a more cost effective solution. Probably the main use for lead acid batteries is for cars, so a 30 year life doesn't work out. For some heavy industrial uses it may be more attractive.

My experience was with cells made by Britannia batteries, I can't comment on genuine Edison cells.

The ones I had dealings with were used to supply electrical measuring bridges so it would not have been the best use. Also they were never treated to electrolyte changes like they should be. The charge/discharge efficiency was poor and the voltage range from fresh charge to full discharge was very wide. For present day use and the fact that they are current charged devices, they would not be compatible with any modern charge controller so this needs watching.

Life for the ones mentioned was 20 years and they were in a bad state, having to be charged before every use and the voltage was dropping rapidly during the readings so the capacity was a tiny fraction of nominal. A friend got some when they were scrapped and tried to reclaim them with electrolyte changes but got no real extra life.

At about the same time I bought a pair of second hand ones from an ex MOD source, these could have been a similar age but probably were never used. I managed with them on a boat for a couple of years and they were ok except for high self discharge and wide voltage variation, the charge /discharge efficiency was poor. Ah rating may be comparable with lead acid but Wh rating was way down due to the wide voltage range.

I stopped using them and tried to use them a few years later and they were then virtually useless. Because of their origin I don't know the age but probably 20 years when I got them.

For some of the claims I have seen, it may be that genuine Edison cells lasted longer but we only hear about the exceptions. I wouldn't waste my money on Russian ones of no proven pedigree.

Flux

isee

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Re: Ni-Fe battery price
« Reply #5 on: January 12, 2015, 06:02:57 AM »
Thanks for your comments.
It seems to be in stark contrast to this post over here:
http://www.survivalistboards.com/showthread.php?t=276932

The Russian plant I sent the quote request to makes them for trains and ground moving machinery, so if anything likely to be better performing than the Chinese ones, that seem to be made to simply re-sell to the west. Though this is just an unfounded speculation on my part.

I think I might order a 12v bank at some point for the hell of it (possibly once I get my wind generator project up and running). Anyone interested in ordering with me (or if you just need my help with regard to communicating with the supplier) feel free to let me know.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2015, 06:15:39 AM by isee »

Flux

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Re: Ni-Fe battery price
« Reply #6 on: January 12, 2015, 12:23:59 PM »
Surprisingly I don't think we are in real disagreement, it depends on the requirement. He said he faced problems along the way and you will if you directly substitute NiFe for lead acid.

There are some nice features, survival frozen and discharged may be vital in Siberia, I can't see it being needed in the UK, lead acid will cope with temperatures here unless left flat in which case they die anyway.

Being able to discharge to 100% is nice, you won't be able to do that without special inverters and control gear.  The ability to use less capacity comes at an enormous price for the nominal capacity.

Surviving over charge and not needing a charge controller is a virtue, if your loads are basic and primitive ( incandescent or heaters) then fine. You will not be able to use the sort of loads that most people expect without some form of buck boost converter or tap changers.

The issue of changing electrolyte is valid, I think you have to do it to get long life, the thing that my friend found is that once damaged they don't respond to new electrolyte, The true Edisons may be different.

If survival alone is the aim then yes they look fine. In the old days before modern devices they would be heaven for surviving off grid, sadly none of us could afford them and those of us who got them used and cheap got some of the advantages but not others.

By all means try them, used properly I am sure they are better value for money if you are in for the long haul and deal with their limitations. If you are over 60 then it probably won't work out.

Flux

isee

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Re: Ni-Fe battery price
« Reply #7 on: January 13, 2015, 08:08:35 AM »
Just a quick update:
I have finalised the quote from the Russian supplier and it works out at about $2400 per 10x1.2v 300amp battery bank in the UK after taxes and shipping.

The batteries in question are metal case in a rubberised case, also includes inter-connectors, as well as certificates and manuals (in Russian).

I think Ian Soutar was getting a similar, but lower amp rating from china for $2500, albeit those were plastic cases. I could also get a plastic case quote from the Russian supplier, but not sure there is any need and actually quite like being able to give an alternative.

One difference of note: the Russian batteries are delivered WITHOUT electrolyte.

I am personally not in a position to pull the trigger right now, but have them on my "to do list at some point".
If any of you fine gentlemen have any specific about the batteries or their specification that I can look up for you in the instruction manual (they kindly sent me one in Russian) I am happy to look it up for you and post it here as I find the subject very interesting.

dnix71

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Re: Ni-Fe battery price
« Reply #8 on: January 13, 2015, 10:27:46 AM »
There are 2 limitations NiFe cells have compared to lead that make lead a more commercial choice. First is cell voltage. Lead is higher [fewer cells are needed in a stack to achieve the same voltage] and the range from practical empty to full is very narrow 2.05 to 2.16 volts per cell. NiFe practical voltage ranges from 1.2 to 1.45 volts per cell

A "12v" lead stack is empty at 12.3 and full at 12.6 to 13 depending on the chemistry. Equalizing can be done at 14.5v. A 10-cell stack of NiFe is empty at 12 and full at 14.5. Equalizing is done at 16.5v

The wider practical voltage range requires a more tolerant device when designing for NiFe, unless you have a buck-boost controller added to adjust the voltage feed to the device.

Second drawback is the electrolyte becomes polluted on contact with air. NiFe electrolyte must be sealed from the air at all times. CO2 in air neutralizes the lye-based electrolyte and reacts to form carbonate scale. Replacement water must be distilled, neutral and air-free. Lead-acid batteries replacement water need only be distilled. The iron in the cell is only insoluble if the pH is kept high enough. Discharging the cell too much turns some of the iron to common rust which spalls.

Another issue with nickel chemistry is the presence of lanthanides. NiMH cells have lanthanides added, but in Edison's day that chemistry was unknown.

isee

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Re: Ni-Fe battery price
« Reply #9 on: January 13, 2015, 11:28:46 AM »
Thanks for the info, though I was under the impression that some of the drawbacks are at least offset by the fact that you don't need to build the rack to be four times your likely draw requirements (if you are looking to drain it no more than to 75% of its capacity to protect it) so the economy comes in both physical size and amp size. In other words if you are likely to need 300amps per discharging event, your total bank capacity can be 300amp rather than 1200. I understand the voltage variability might be an issue, but don't know if it's something that can be addressed either by building the batter bank around Ni-Fe or retrofitting an existing one?

Second drawback I can't really comment on as I simply don't know enough. Everything I know about Ni-Fe is what I have read on various forums.

Out of curiosity, what would be the cost of a comparable lead acid bank to the one I have priced up above? Bearing in mind the deep cycle limitations and longevity caused by it? I guess what I am asking is: if I wanted a 12v 300amp (300amp actual, not potential, which I could not touch for fear of breaking the bank) bank that I only need to maintain and not replace in the next 20 years? I am trying to sort the wee from the chaff as there is a lot of conflicting info out there for both Ni-Fe and Lead acid, especially when it comes to cost comparison. Being of financial background myself, I think devising the most fair cost comparison would enable more people to make the correct and informed choice based on their own unique constraints.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2015, 11:35:05 AM by isee »

gww

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Re: Ni-Fe battery price
« Reply #10 on: January 13, 2015, 12:42:54 PM »
Quote
Out of curiosity, what would be the cost of a comparable lead acid bank to the one I have priced up above? Bearing in mind the deep cycle limitations and longevity caused by it? I guess what I am asking is: if I wanted a 12v 300amp (300amp actual, not potential, which I could not touch for fear of breaking the bank) bank that I only need to maintain and not replace in the next 20 years?

You mean something like this?

http://gbindustrialbattery.com/Forklift_Battery_Sizes_and_Specifications_Zone15.html

Seems comparable to me
gww

joestue

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Re: Ni-Fe battery price
« Reply #11 on: January 13, 2015, 01:19:42 PM »
can you get a short circuit amps for those ni-fe cells?

with lead acid, the sealed agm cells are usually 30-40 short circuit amps per amp hour.. and that's regardless of voltage.
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isee

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Re: Ni-Fe battery price
« Reply #12 on: January 13, 2015, 02:07:49 PM »
can you get a short circuit amps for those ni-fe cells?

with lead acid, the sealed agm cells are usually 30-40 short circuit amps per amp hour.. and that's regardless of voltage.

Sorry, if this question was directed to me, you will have to rephrase it in layman's terms. What exactly am I looking for to get this info?

isee

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Re: Ni-Fe battery price
« Reply #13 on: January 13, 2015, 02:09:22 PM »
Quote
Out of curiosity, what would be the cost of a comparable lead acid bank to the one I have priced up above? Bearing in mind the deep cycle limitations and longevity caused by it? I guess what I am asking is: if I wanted a 12v 300amp (300amp actual, not potential, which I could not touch for fear of breaking the bank) bank that I only need to maintain and not replace in the next 20 years?

You mean something like this?

http://gbindustrialbattery.com/Forklift_Battery_Sizes_and_Specifications_Zone15.html

Seems comparable to me
gww

Yes something like that, but easier to read, can you pick the most comparable example tot eh bank I provided please? Not because I am lazy, it's simply that I am new to this subject and am prone to get overwhelmed with all the information.

thanks

dnix71

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Re: Ni-Fe battery price
« Reply #14 on: January 13, 2015, 03:30:33 PM »
The #2 limitation you said you didn't understand is this: Your cells would be shipped from Russia without electrolyte. That is because the electrolyte is caustic lye. It is unsafe to handle. Mixed with organic material like brake fluid and it starts fire. It also will burn off your skin if contact is made. The pH is at the opposite end from the sulfuric acid in a lead acid battery. In the US, drain cleaner powder is caustic lye. Edison also added lithium to his cells to scavenge carbonates. Lithium is toxic to people, except it very small amounts used to treat certain psychaitric illnesses.

The carbon dioxide in air (what animals breathe out) will react with caustic lye and neutralize it, and form carbonate scale that stops the cell from working. You must keep air out of the cell and the water added must be very pure and pH neutral.

The electrolyte you buy will be in pellet form. It will be sealed in plastic because it is hygroscopic (it pulls water from the air). You will mix whatever concentration you want and your if our supplier deals in NiFe batteries they can add lithium hydroxide to the mix before thay ship it.

NiFe electrolyte is the pH opposite of lead acid electrolyte. The will violently react and neutralize each other, so it is not a good practice to have both battery types in the same room.

Before you order the batteries you need to know what the maker recommends for electrolyte. Sodium or potassium? hydroxide. Reagent or technical grade? And how much lithium.

gww

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Re: Ni-Fe battery price
« Reply #15 on: January 13, 2015, 04:01:42 PM »
Quote
Yes something like that, but easier to read, can you pick the most comparable example tot eh bank I provided please? Not because I am lazy, it's simply that I am new to this subject and am prone to get overwhelmed with all the information.

The very first battery that is shown is 670 amp hour and have been known to last 15 to 20 years in solar use. It can be taken down to 80% dod and it cost $1200 to your door in the usa at least.  This is less then half the price of your quote.

This is what you were asking isn't it?

gww

PS you can take the whole 670 amps from that battery and be at the safe 80% dod per the manufatuer.

Mary B

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Re: Ni-Fe battery price
« Reply #16 on: January 13, 2015, 05:32:37 PM »
I could replace my golf cart battery bank twice for the price of the exotic batteries. Maybe 3 times depending on lead prices. And all I need to maintain them is distilled h2o. As an added bonus I can lift them at 68 pounds each.

isee

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Re: Ni-Fe battery price
« Reply #17 on: January 13, 2015, 05:34:04 PM »
The #2 limitation you said you didn't understand is this: Your cells would be shipped from Russia without electrolyte. That is because the electrolyte is caustic lye. It is unsafe to handle. Mixed with organic material like brake fluid and it starts fire. It also will burn off your skin if contact is made. The pH is at the opposite end from the sulfuric acid in a lead acid battery. In the US, drain cleaner powder is caustic lye. Edison also added lithium to his cells to scavenge carbonates. Lithium is toxic to people, except it very small amounts used to treat certain psychaitric illnesses.

The carbon dioxide in air (what animals breathe out) will react with caustic lye and neutralize it, and form carbonate scale that stops the cell from working. You must keep air out of the cell and the water added must be very pure and pH neutral.

The electrolyte you buy will be in pellet form. It will be sealed in plastic because it is hygroscopic (it pulls water from the air). You will mix whatever concentration you want and your if our supplier deals in NiFe batteries they can add lithium hydroxide to the mix before thay ship it.

NiFe electrolyte is the pH opposite of lead acid electrolyte. The will violently react and neutralize each other, so it is not a good practice to have both battery types in the same room.

Before you order the batteries you need to know what the maker recommends for electrolyte. Sodium or potassium? hydroxide. Reagent or technical grade? And how much lithium.

I meant I had insufficient knowledge to argue against your statement, but appreciate the info nevertheless!

isee

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Re: Ni-Fe battery price
« Reply #18 on: January 13, 2015, 05:40:01 PM »
Quote
Yes something like that, but easier to read, can you pick the most comparable example tot eh bank I provided please? Not because I am lazy, it's simply that I am new to this subject and am prone to get overwhelmed with all the information.

The very first battery that is shown is 670 amp hour and have been known to last 15 to 20 years in solar use. It can be taken down to 80% dod and it cost $1200 to your door in the usa at least.  This is less then half the price of your quote.

This is what you were asking isn't it?

gww



PS you can take the whole 670 amps from that battery and be at the safe 80% dod per the manufatuer.

Wow, that's very decent! How many times could you take the whole 670amps before they go dead?
Are they lead acid batteries?
I just discovered that a 3kw solar kit (sans fitting) can now be bought for just £1750, and with a decent battery bank for say another £1750 greener living is beginning to looks cost effective even without the feed in tariff!

gww

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Re: Ni-Fe battery price
« Reply #19 on: January 13, 2015, 05:54:45 PM »
Yes lead acid.  I would say most people that get the long life do not take them below 50 % that often but even 50% beats the requirement you where talking of.  They are 500 lbs though.

gww

isee

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Re: Ni-Fe battery price
« Reply #20 on: January 14, 2015, 04:45:28 AM »
Would you say that this is a good battery? http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Pair-of-2-x-12V-Xplorer-100-AH-AGM-Battery-UItra-Deep-Cycle-5-Year-Warranty-/171235795730?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_BoatEquipment_Accessories_SM&hash=item27de72e312

12v 200ah total with a claimed 1000cycles for £170 delivered and no maintenance throughout its life sounds great, but does it really mean I can drain it comepletely a thousand times before they are useless?

for direct comparison to my earlier post and ni-fe price:

£170*1.5 (to get to the 300ah as with ni-fe) = £255 or $386
vs $2400 for ni-fe

Ni-fe would weigh around 150kg
this would weigh around 75kg

ni-fe needs maintenance
this wouldn't

the question remains, how many cycles can one expect out of ni-fe.
if this 1000 cycles claim is correct, it would take a 1000 days to kill them in an application where electricity is produced and stored during daytime and then mostly used up at night. or roughly 3 years, right? Assuming ni-fe is any different and just keeps on going, it would take 18 years before the AGMs have cost you the same as the one off ni-fe purchase.

Am I right in my assumptions so far?

dnix71

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Re: Ni-Fe battery price
« Reply #21 on: January 14, 2015, 01:20:46 PM »
Close. The cost of NiFe is the battery delivered, the cost of initial electrolyte [because yours are shipped dry] plus the cost of distilled water over the live of the battery, plus the cost of replacing the electrolyte a few times [because you will need to, it doesn't last forever].

I don't like agm's. The rated 1000 cycles is probably best case. We use agms in walk-behind pallet jacks and they lose capacity quickly if you run them down every day. Four 6v 180ah agms go in each 24v walk behind pallet jack. The Crowne lift mechanic told us he doesn't like them either. Most shops get 2 good years or less out of a set of batteries that cost $1200 to replace. The advantage is no watering.

AGM's like that in a series string are impossible to equalize. Your NiFe can be equalized and so can flooded lead acid batteries.

Flooded lead acid costs less than agm's of the same size, but last twice as long if you don't let the tops of the plates get dry.
Nothing beats a flooded forklift battery in a steel case. We have an ancient walk behind with a 24v 400ah flooded can and it was run down to 8.5v by mistake and left that way for a month one time. It came back with a slow charge and is still running 3 years later. That battery is at least 10 years old. If you need big capacity and long life, a flooded forklift stack is your best bet. They have thicker plates and are made to survive bouncing, so if you can simply charge them hard enough to heat up the electrolyte to prevent layering, they will give you many years of service for less than NiFe.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Industrial-Forklift-Battery-Hawker-18-125-13-Many-Makes-Models-24v-36v-48v-/171630587914
There are plenty of places like this that rebuild forklift batteries. Because they are 2v cell stacks they can be rebulit indefinitely.

isee

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Re: Ni-Fe battery price
« Reply #22 on: January 15, 2015, 03:04:30 AM »
Close. The cost of NiFe is the battery delivered, the cost of initial electrolyte [because yours are shipped dry] plus the cost of distilled water over the live of the battery, plus the cost of replacing the electrolyte a few times [because you will need to, it doesn't last forever].

I don't like agm's. The rated 1000 cycles is probably best case. We use agms in walk-behind pallet jacks and they lose capacity quickly if you run them down every day. Four 6v 180ah agms go in each 24v walk behind pallet jack. The Crowne lift mechanic told us he doesn't like them either. Most shops get 2 good years or less out of a set of batteries that cost $1200 to replace. The advantage is no watering.

AGM's like that in a series string are impossible to equalize. Your NiFe can be equalized and so can flooded lead acid batteries.

Flooded lead acid costs less than agm's of the same size, but last twice as long if you don't let the tops of the plates get dry.
Nothing beats a flooded forklift battery in a steel case. We have an ancient walk behind with a 24v 400ah flooded can and it was run down to 8.5v by mistake and left that way for a month one time. It came back with a slow charge and is still running 3 years later. That battery is at least 10 years old. If you need big capacity and long life, a flooded forklift stack is your best bet. They have thicker plates and are made to survive bouncing, so if you can simply charge them hard enough to heat up the electrolyte to prevent layering, they will give you many years of service for less than NiFe.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Industrial-Forklift-Battery-Hawker-18-125-13-Many-Makes-Models-24v-36v-48v-/171630587914
There are plenty of places like this that rebuild forklift batteries. Because they are 2v cell stacks they can be rebulit indefinitely.

Wow, very informative thanks!
Just for clarity, a forklift battery is still a lead acid right?

P.S. Turns out the original quote I got was from the factory's reseller (I didn't check their e-mail signature), just got a quote direct from the factory and subject to a few shipping and taxes checks it's looking like I could get a 24v 300ah Ni-Fe for about $2500, still not that competitive with the deep cycle batteries, but for someone who only wants to install them ones, that's shaping up to be a good value right?

 

Mary B

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Re: Ni-Fe battery price
« Reply #23 on: January 15, 2015, 03:23:45 AM »
24 volt 232AH lead acid 6v gold cart bank $450... buy 8 for $900 and have 464AH

isee

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Re: Ni-Fe battery price
« Reply #24 on: January 15, 2015, 04:13:34 AM »
24 volt 232AH lead acid 6v gold cart bank $450... buy 8 for $900 and have 464AH

so 232AH at 50% DoD and what sort of life span?

The Ni-Fe price seems a little better now.
Out of interest, at what price would Ni-Fe begin to make sense to you Mary?

joestue

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Re: Ni-Fe battery price
« Reply #25 on: January 15, 2015, 04:43:57 AM »
Out of interest, at what price would Ni-Fe begin to make sense to you Mary?

as it is now, its 12 times the price of golf cart cells? no way...
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isee

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Re: Ni-Fe battery price
« Reply #26 on: January 15, 2015, 08:03:55 AM »
Out of interest, at what price would Ni-Fe begin to make sense to you Mary?

as it is now, its 12 times the price of golf cart cells? no way...

How did you arrive at 12 times?

I see 3 times at most
($900 vs $2500 plus electrolyte)
I get that they don't make much economical sense, unless there is a need for specific qualities of the ni-Fe, but I don't think it's helpful to the discussion to be making up arbitrary numbers...

gww

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Re: Ni-Fe battery price
« Reply #27 on: January 15, 2015, 08:21:08 AM »
I
It was not 900=2500 plus electrolite, it was 450=2500 plus electrolite.  What I think you missed was it was a 24 volt bank not 12.  12 times the cost might be off but I am not sure as I don't know what the electrolite would cost and how you would add the electrlite cost up as you have to change it every 5 years.  How would you add or compare emtying and filling electrolite to changing cables to new batteries when  you replaced them.  One thing is for sure,  when you change the electrolite you probly would have to take the cable/interconnects off to do it.  How can you be sure that 12 times the cost is messing up a thread as hyperboil.  It might be close to the correct number.
gww

Ps I could go on with more.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2015, 08:26:21 AM by gww »

isee

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Re: Ni-Fe battery price
« Reply #28 on: January 15, 2015, 08:56:02 AM »
I think you missed my post where I was getting a 24v ni-fe 300ah bank for $2500, or 24v 600ah if you directly compare to a 50% DoD lead acid bank.

I get that the ni-fe is not as attractive, am simply pointing out that it's nowhere near as bad as 12 times the cost, or even 6 times the cost for that matter. I don't know why I am arguing over this, as I don't need any banks, ni-fe or otherwise. But think it's statements like this that add nothing to average person's like me ability to make an informed decision.

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Re: Ni-Fe battery price
« Reply #29 on: January 15, 2015, 09:31:47 AM »
isee;
After having read what your requirements are in your other post.
Have you thought about NiCd batteries? That still sell them , are very reliable and need NO water or electrolyte.
I constantly drain my very small bank down to 85% DOD and they love it!! True you will need 20, 22 being better for your 24V setup due to voltage sag when the inverter first starts up, but you can also get them in high Ah sets. The 100Ah 1.2V ones weigh in at about 3lbs each, are completely recycle-able and last for years!!

My small sets 16Ah, 20Ah, and 7Ah sets are using NiCds that are well over 5 years old and I've drained each of those separate banks down til inverter shut off and they come right back up.
TomW on here has even larger sets that needed a crane to lift them into place.
I haven't seen him post on here in a while, but if you look at his older posts , you may find these might be your better route.

Just a thought
Bruce S

 
A kind word often goes unsaid BUT never goes unheard

gww

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Re: Ni-Fe battery price
« Reply #30 on: January 15, 2015, 09:46:36 AM »
I
You are correct, I missed the 24 volt post.  We had been comparing through out this whole post a 12 volt 300 ah battery.  So that there is no misunderstanding it is now only 6 times more expensive to get the nife battery.  It is not out of line however to point out the flaws as you have been promoting, offering to get for others and an advocate for these batteries.  This is on a forum where hopefully the truth is shown.  The priorities that are put toward the things shown might be differrent for each of us.  When I first saw this I though you might be a spammer promoting something you had a finacial interest in.  I am smart enough to know you could just be like me, excited about what seems like an oppertunite to get something good and not a promoter but either ways the views, yours for/others against can be presented and each reader can make their own mind up.  I have seen lipo batteries post go down this very path.  They have some binifits but not proven over the long term.  These batteries have been around a long time though and you have gotten some real life experiances in this thread.
I don't know but that if a guy for his own reasons just wanted nife (like I have wind in a bad area) Then the price for them you have may be great compared to other nife batteries.
Good luck
gww

isee

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Re: Ni-Fe battery price
« Reply #31 on: January 15, 2015, 10:07:52 AM »
isee;
After having read what your requirements are in your other post.
Have you thought about NiCd batteries? That still sell them , are very reliable and need NO water or electrolyte.
I constantly drain my very small bank down to 85% DOD and they love it!! True you will need 20, 22 being better for your 24V setup due to voltage sag when the inverter first starts up, but you can also get them in high Ah sets. The 100Ah 1.2V ones weigh in at about 3lbs each, are completely recycle-able and last for years!!

My small sets 16Ah, 20Ah, and 7Ah sets are using NiCds that are well over 5 years old and I've drained each of those separate banks down til inverter shut off and they come right back up.
TomW on here has even larger sets that needed a crane to lift them into place.
I haven't seen him post on here in a while, but if you look at his older posts , you may find these might be your better route.

Just a thought
Bruce S

Dear Bruce,
thanks for your post. As posted in my other thread it quickly became apparent that renewable energy (and especially stored power) is not currently for me. I was simply excited to learn about the ni-fe tech and it's properties and it's the exaggerating posts of "it's a gazillion times as expensive as lead-acid" variety that prompted me to contact the Russian suppliers and try to get some concrete numbers in the first place.

My next project, if I can find the time, will be building and trying out a solar air collector to heat my workshop. If successful I will be implementing a much larger and a water powered one on my farm/aircraft repair shop.

isee

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Re: Ni-Fe battery price
« Reply #32 on: January 15, 2015, 10:17:09 AM »
I
You are correct, I missed the 24 volt post.  We had been comparing through out this whole post a 12 volt 300 ah battery.  So that there is no misunderstanding it is now only 6 times more expensive to get the nife battery.  It is not out of line however to point out the flaws as you have been promoting, offering to get for others and an advocate for these batteries.  This is on a forum where hopefully the truth is shown.  The priorities that are put toward the things shown might be differrent for each of us.  When I first saw this I though you might be a spammer promoting something you had a finacial interest in.  I am smart enough to know you could just be like me, excited about what seems like an oppertunite to get something good and not a promoter but either ways the views, yours for/others against can be presented and each reader can make their own mind up.  I have seen lipo batteries post go down this very path.  They have some binifits but not proven over the long term.  These batteries have been around a long time though and you have gotten some real life experiances in this thread.
I don't know but that if a guy for his own reasons just wanted nife (like I have wind in a bad area) Then the price for them you have may be great compared to other nife batteries.
Good luck
gww

I know I may have come across as a spammer, being a new account and constantly defending Ni-FE, but it was mostly due to all the naysayers being unfair on it (in my opinion).

My main motivation for posting was the fact that while researching ni_fe there were lots of posts on the internet, of "it's a gazillion times more expensive than lead acid" variety, and I just wanted to add a little objectivity into the mix. for those who might not be comparing on cost alone.

Mission accomplished I think, happy to put anyone interested in touch with the Russian plant if I piqued anyone's interest.