Author Topic: Building a 6kw pure sine wave inverter using power jack boards part2 the guts..  (Read 64100 times)

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oztules

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The only difference between all of them will be the filters.
They all essentially do the same jobs.

Luckily the grid tie units we get the transformers from have massive filter networks to pinch as well... so no problem then.

I had to do that with mine when I built my one valve regen set.


.............oztules
Flinders Island Australia

boB

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Nice work, Oz !

TDC

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I'm not sure yet whether some sort of web analogue meter display would be useful such as the Classic gauges display shown below.....

I haven't seen that before, is it a custom or new version of the MidNite Solar local status panel?

tytower

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Re: a 6kw pure sine wave inverter
« Reply #102 on: January 24, 2017, 04:38:22 PM »
A question for oztules.

I am wondering if connecting up a normal  grid tied inverter system but without any available grid to tie into .

Can I use a smaller inverter to make my own 240 V grid from my 24Volt battery system and connect the grid tie inverter to that grid and run normal 240 Volt appliances .

Thinking about it the grid tie inverter should be protected against any malfunction of the 24 Volt producing 240 Volt inverter and that inverter should be protected against current getting into it and destroying it .

Would this work ? Do you know of anybody that has done this or still does this ? and if it won't work , why not and what might the possible fix be please?

oztules

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Yes, but your small inverter would need to be a low frequency h bridge configuration like these ones. A normal light HF pure sine inverter will not work to charge the battery, but you may still cogenerate providing you don't generate more than the system is using.... as a HF cannot pass the extra energy to the battery.

..........oztules

Flinders Island Australia

tytower

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Yes, but your small inverter would need to be a low frequency h bridge configuration like these ones.

Thanks for responding so quickly. Did you mean to add a reference or could you add one  so I know what I am looking for . If I'm generating 2kwh's and at the time I am using say 1kwh you mean the excess has to go to battery charge or something will go bust ?  Is that right? but a " a low frequency h bridge configuration " would be able to handle it?

I'm suspecting you might mean I need to build one of your inverters above to do the job. I've been lurking ,watching from the start
« Last Edit: January 25, 2017, 06:18:10 PM by tytower »

joestue

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I believe many APC 24v or 48v ups could be run backwards (the sine wave ones marketed as smartups) And charge the battery from a grid tie inverter. The problem with them is the high parasitic load of about 15 watts per kilowatt capacity if you add an inductor. The second problem is the inverter passes dc current to the transformer (this makes up half of the parasitic load) so you cannot replace the TX with a much more efficient toroidal transformer.


So the simplest option is to pull the transformer and h bridge out of a smart ups and buy one of those 8010 sine wave inverter boards for 8$
My wife says I'm not just a different colored rubik's cube, i am a rubik's knot in a cage.

tytower

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Perhaps I should ask my questions elsewhere and leave this thread for oztules inverter which I continue to read over , picking up little bits each time .I'm hoping to build one but I've got to grasp the basics first I think.

Quote
Posted by: joestue--So the simplest option is to pull the transformer and h bridge out of a smart ups and buy one of those 8010 sine wave inverter boards for 8$

Is it possible to get a bit more detail for this please? . I have a UPS but I don't think it is a "smart UPS" so I'll have to read up more on this . The board seems straight forward enough. Is this discussed in a thread hereabouts?

Harold in CR

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 I for one, would be very interested in learning how to build what tytower is asking about.

 Perhaps he could start a thread with all pertinent information and photos.

 I have 2 older 1500kva UPS's at 24V and would like to build a 24V battery to 120V ac unit to start.

 I'm hoping to use the xformers from both units and rewind them as one, if this will work out. I looked up the 8010 boards and sometimes they come with a 2002 board for $15.00 all in free shipping. Can't believe that is all the electronics needed to make a decent inverter.

 I recently bought a new energy saver fridge and that and the cap start clothes washer will be the biggest loads on the inverter I want to build.

 Also, just received a book of electronics for beginners by Forrest Mims, so, I'm determined to try to learn this stuff if I can get enough push from the excellent teachers on this site.

OperaHouse

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Start another thread for the mini inverter.  I just got another board in, left two at the camp last year.  I have a collection of old UPS transformers, but they are only about 200W from smaller units.  That with the fets from those units make a nice quickie inverter.  Also have two identical new GE 12/24-120/240 500W transformers I could put in parallel to make a 12-48V unit.

Here is something I think is a deal.  I bought a few of these to mount NANO boards on.  They are just two  pins short of mounting the EGS002 boards on.  Fortunately the last two pins are the fan pins and they could be bent to use other connectors.  The board could also be sliced in half for two units.  Skip the wire connectors and solder directly to the board.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/112259266433?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

joestue

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 I for one, would be very interested in learning how to build what tytower is asking about.

 Perhaps he could start a thread with all pertinent information and photos.

 I have 2 older 1500kva UPS's at 24V and would like to build a 24V battery to 120V ac unit to start.

 I'm hoping to use the xformers from both units and rewind them as one, if this will work out. I looked up the 8010 boards and sometimes they come with a 2002 board for $15.00 all in free shipping. Can't believe that is all the electronics needed to make a decent inverter.

I have one of these boards (well, not exactly this one because i bought it several months ago)
the price i see right now is $4.74 and $1.85 shipping
www.ebay.com/itm/Pure-Sine-Wave-Inverter-SPWM-Board-EGS002-EG8010-IR2110-Driver-Module-/331748857232

Harold, its likely that your older UPS has totem pole mosfet drivers. a 2n2222 and 2n2907 transistor with a 2n7000 to drive them.
The newer ones have a surface mount 16 pin H bridge driver, and i can't remember the part number.

Basically all you need to do is preserve the h bridge driver and cut the H bridge off the board. Add a second capacitor to the board because the ESR of the old one increases with age.

That egs002 drive board already has the IR2110 driver and it supposedly can deliver a peak current of 2 amps into the fets. this is good, but the problem is the inductance between the ir2110 drive board and the H bridge. it would be better to install the gate driver as close as possible to the h bridge.


there are some other details i will look into before speculating on the best way to handle the output voltage and current sensing.

I would not rewind those transformers, they aren't welded, but i've always experienced significantly higher eddy current losses whenever i take a core apart and put it back together, and i can't fit all the sheets into the original bobbin the second time anyway.
My wife says I'm not just a different colored rubik's cube, i am a rubik's knot in a cage.

tytower

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I'm wondering if you have made any movement on this? I'm still trying to absorb the info in this thread but wish to make a system to run my own grid .

Harold in CR

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 I have been so busy digging my micro hydro storage pond, built an open design car shelter to be closed later, trying to learn how to hack OEM automotive motor controllers, and general farm maintenance, I just have not gotten into this inverter build.

 Too many projects, not enough time.  ::)

tytower

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I found a way to do this and a circuit but this clown administrator you have is a power hungry  prick so I won't bother posting it here .

joestue

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LOL.

My wife says I'm not just a different colored rubik's cube, i am a rubik's knot in a cage.

DamonHD

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I found a way to do this and a circuit but this clown administrator you have is a power hungry  prick so I won't bother posting it here .

Was that me you were referring to, or one of my busy and unpaid colleagues?

Lovely attitude.

PS. Calling me the C-word in a PM is even lovelier.  Go away.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2017, 03:49:40 AM by DamonHD »
Podcast: https://www.earth.org.uk/SECTION_podcast.html

@DamonHD@mastodon.social

OperaHouse

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I'm still trying to get my EGS board to work! I had bought a couple boards and just needed to add some FET.  Months passed and nothing never got built.  Hey, I'll just buy the cheap 2KW kit and there will be no reason I can't just build it up.  It is still on the shelf partly built, like I need another inverter. Working on the camps structural issues has left me dead tired at the end of the day.

Amish_Fighter_Pilot

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Wow this unit looks far nicer and is far more powerful than my Magnum Energy ME2012(which is modified sine unfortunately). I wish I had the time and skills to build some of these for our place. We're almost certainly going to need some serious inverter capacity if we're going to stay off-grid long term. We're being denied service by the power company right now so we'll see how that plays out, but if we could raise some money to buy a couple of these off of you that would be sweet.

natojm

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Hi  to all. I'm new member, i need help. if one of you can help me, i will apreciate. I have  a UPS (nobrake) 48dc to 230ac 2500w , Italian made, very,very professional use, with 2 monster toroidal transformer and pure sine wave. When i tryed to finish that anoyng rumour beeping i touched the controlboard on the chassis and shortcircuited it. I'm tryng to fix it but all the technicians here in Italy do not have idea how to fix it. My intention is use it as power inverter. I would like to know if you guys have one idea if i use one EGS002  to replace, or change the components that burnet, I do not have  skills to fix it. Please give me one LIGHT. Thank you in advance.

natojm

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Hi  to all. I'm new member, i need help. if one of you can help me, i will apreciate. I have  a UPS (nobrake) 48dc to 230ac 2500w , Italian made, very,very professional use, with 2 monster toroidal transformer and pure sine wave. When i tryed to finish that anoyng rumour beeping i touched the controlboard on the chassis and shortcircuited it. I'm tryng to fix it but all the technicians here in Italy do not have idea how to fix it. My intention is use it as power inverter. I would like to know if you guys have one idea if i use one EGS002  to replace, or change the components that burnet, I do not have  skills to fix it. Please give me one LIGHT. Thank you in advance.

clockmanFRA

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Hi natojm,

I only deal/work with the Ozinverter Low Frequency 48vdc to 230vac machines.

If you post some photographs of your machine/inverter insides, especially the Power Board and the Control board. Then may be a few members here may spot your type of machine.

If your toroids are wound correctly and you can find what windings they have for secondary and primary, then they may be used with a new Power Board and a New Control Board.

 I note that today on Alixpress there are suppliers of a 3KW made up and populated inverter board with the Control and Power board combined.  I have personally never worked with these from Alixpress, but the price is low, so some experimentation might be possible.

Please remember 'natojm' that 230vac is dangerous. And if you are not sure, then seek advice from a competent person that does know!.   REMEMBER 230ac CAN KILL YOU !

Everything is possible, just give me time.

OzInverter man. Normandy France.
http://www.bryanhorology.com/renewable-energy-creation.php

3 Hugh P's 3.7m Wind T's (12 years) .. 5kW PV on 3 Trackers, (8 yrs) .. 9kW PV AC coupled to OzInverter MINI Grid, back charging AC Coupling to 48v 1300ah battery

natojm

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Thank you so mutch. I will  take somme pictures of my ups, the brand is ONPOWER,  model- GUARDIAN 35 its realy good made. last year with help of the people from, i do not remember exatly the name of the forum i built one 24dc to 230ac 5000w power inverter using power jack boards and 2 transformers from old APC  3000 ups. Was a great experience for me, works perfect. When i mensioned the guardian 35, it has 2 big toroidal transformesrs, both 2500va, one 57v primary 230v secondary, the onther one is 27v primay and 230v secondary, this kind ups use a thicker wires and they are built to  last and, i was a very negligent when i tyed to remove the beeping and shortcircuited the board. Is very hard to me acept the idea of use only the toroidal transformer, with chinese boards. Anyway in case, of using that board you told me, what you opnion based on the expecifications of the toroidals i told above?, Thank you very mutch for your post. NJM

clockmanFRA

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I suspect that your UPS has one toroid for the UPS battery charging from the utilities/mains, and one toroid for the Inverter ie, from your UPS batteries and  conversion to 230vac.

Its all about the toroid and its actual mass of the core.

With the 8010 chip, (on the egs002 board) we are looking for a nice voltage from the toroid of between "28v-30v for the 8010 chips for a nominal 48v system,."  When we put 230vac into the secondary winding for testing purposes to ensure the toroid is where we want.

The toroid core does have slight differing characteristics between manufacturers of the silicon iron wound/wrapped core, and nowadays I never belive what the manufacturer says regards ratings.

But in general….. I Find the cross sectional area of the core, divide by  /2800 for 50HZ (Oztules empirical formula), will gve you  volts per turn on the primary.
You need between 28v and 30v, so divide volts per turn  and this will give you approximate number of turns on the Primary.

As I say its all about your present toroid characteristics. Some folk rip the toroid's down to get at the cores and reuse the copper windings.

Testing your toroids

Block diagram of the Toroid testing procedure.   (WARNING you are using MAINS 230vac).

NOTE, Let the 230vac light the bulb and the toroid secondary, then close the switch and let the full 230vac flow just into the secondary of the toroid.  If you do not use a bulb to start the toroid the mains fusing will blow.


« Last Edit: July 12, 2018, 05:50:02 AM by clockmanFRA »
Everything is possible, just give me time.

OzInverter man. Normandy France.
http://www.bryanhorology.com/renewable-energy-creation.php

3 Hugh P's 3.7m Wind T's (12 years) .. 5kW PV on 3 Trackers, (8 yrs) .. 9kW PV AC coupled to OzInverter MINI Grid, back charging AC Coupling to 48v 1300ah battery

natojm

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 Hi clockmanFRA, you're correct the UPS works that way, one transformer  to charge the battery and the other for the inverter, i'm sending also one picture of the controlboard of 24v, but the 48v happned almost the same problem. desatention and touched the chassis.

natojm

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more picture of the onpower  GUARDIAN35  UPS

natojm

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From inside Guardian 35

clockmanFRA

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Sure looks a well built UPS unit.

I do not recognise that control board, perhaps others here might.

I can see slightly burnt copper tracks hanging away from that control board.

The toroid on the left looks like it is salvageable as is, and it looks like it has a decent primary already, probably good for a continues 2.4kW.

The other toroid can be stripped down. The small toroid on top with a decent size winding looks like its a choke/inductance?.

Me, I would strip all the toroid's down to bare cores, open the cores centre hole to 100mm diameter and double stack/and resin the two toroid's together and build a decent 6kW OzInverter.

Sorry I can not be more helpful.
Everything is possible, just give me time.

OzInverter man. Normandy France.
http://www.bryanhorology.com/renewable-energy-creation.php

3 Hugh P's 3.7m Wind T's (12 years) .. 5kW PV on 3 Trackers, (8 yrs) .. 9kW PV AC coupled to OzInverter MINI Grid, back charging AC Coupling to 48v 1300ah battery

natojm

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thank you clockmanFRA, I sent the boards to the laboratory, they will charge a lot of money, but i'm sure  will be the good  solution, but  i'm very interested in that solution you gave me, maybe in a future i will take the second toroidal and mount a new power inverter using a cheaper chinese boards. if i leave the original configuration; primary 54v secondary 230v, what kind of board i can use? 60v or 72, 90v. I'm asking you becouse i saw the boards in all these voltage. Thank you.

clockmanFRA

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Chinese cheap populated ready PCB.

This has the EGS002 board.

This board might be okay for your Torroid at 3kW.

It requires 48vdc.

BUT PLEASE remember I have not experimented with one of these!!!!!!!!!! so I have no idea if it works okay, OKAY ?.

https://www.aliexpress.com/store/product/Aiyima1Pcs-48V-High-Power-Pure-Sine-Wave-Frequency-Inverter-Drives-Main-Board-The-Full-Power-5000W/1897413_32893920403.html?spm=2114.12010612.8148356.31.39946b14HCIcxs


And, these guys might be stretching the truth a fair bit ? ..........

https://www.aliexpress.com/store/product/Peak-11000W-continued-3000W-5000W-5500W-DC24V-36V-48V-to-AC-220V-pure-sine-inverter-board/123900_32856449215.html?spm=2114.search0104.8.29.6f8b1b13QLvle3&priceBeautifyAB=0



« Last Edit: July 17, 2018, 04:00:43 PM by clockmanFRA »
Everything is possible, just give me time.

OzInverter man. Normandy France.
http://www.bryanhorology.com/renewable-energy-creation.php

3 Hugh P's 3.7m Wind T's (12 years) .. 5kW PV on 3 Trackers, (8 yrs) .. 9kW PV AC coupled to OzInverter MINI Grid, back charging AC Coupling to 48v 1300ah battery

natojm

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Thank you, like i said, when the UPS board come from the laboratory, i will try if the guy made a good job, if it's ok, my plan is take out the  the second toroidal; 54v primay 230 secondary, and order the cheaper 48dc to 230ac 5000w  board from china, and push it to the limit of the  transformer and wait for the (smoke ). But my only doubt is, can i use a 48v board on 54v toroidal? this picture below is the transformer. Thank you.

clockmanFRA

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That toroid in your photo looks like its the Battery charging and UPS constant running toroid.

ie,   you put 230vac in you get 54vac out, ie a good charging battery voltage for 48v battery pack and constant UPS 48v output.

DO NOT use that toroid in the photo on your inverter board from China, the Primary cables will not take the 48vdc from your 48v battery.

As I said earlier, the toroid on the LEFT in your photograph of your UPS, is the toroid that should run with the Chinese board.        Just test it as I described earlier, and your looking for about 30vac when you put 230vac into it, again as I showed in that earlier Photo, remember this test arrangement is only a test, as the toroid normally runs the other way around.

Everything is possible, just give me time.

OzInverter man. Normandy France.
http://www.bryanhorology.com/renewable-energy-creation.php

3 Hugh P's 3.7m Wind T's (12 years) .. 5kW PV on 3 Trackers, (8 yrs) .. 9kW PV AC coupled to OzInverter MINI Grid, back charging AC Coupling to 48v 1300ah battery