Author Topic: axial generator with lamination core  (Read 114026 times)

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Ungrounded Lightning Rod

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Re: axial generator with lamination core
« Reply #66 on: August 28, 2018, 01:16:15 PM »
Cogging will be a problem.

When you include cores in the stator of a radial-flux alternator, to avoid cogging you need to design the geometry of the magnets and the cores so that, at any position, you have the same total amount of flux through the gaps between the magnets and the cores.  Otherwise there will be a torque to a different position where the flux paths will be shorter.  (You can get away with "something close", but not TOO far from constant.  See below.)

This torque can be very strong if your geometry is off, giving you the potential vs. kinetic energy equivalent of pushing a heavy cart, with good wheels and bearings, along a paved road with regular, and very high and deep, hills and valleys.  But with careful design and accurate construction you can keep the hills low enough that it isn't a problem.

Once the mill is spinning all you get from cogging is vibration.  But when the mill is stopped the magnets will have pulled the shaft into a position of low energy - "the cart is in a valley".  To get it spinning the wind has to push it "over the top of the next hill", after which it will get enough kinetic energy from "rolling down the hill" that the wind can easily push it over the next one.  You won't have drag from generation (except for eddy current losses - which are small at low speeds) until you reach cutin.

High-TSR blades produce substantial torque when they're spinning.  But when they're stopped the bulk of the airflow is detached - the bulk of the blade area is "stalled" - and the part that isn't stalled is near the hub, where it has little leverage.  So they generate very little torque - much less than if they were spinning near their design TSR.

The trick is to get the cogging low enough and/or the blade's stall torque high enough that the blade breaks the cogging and is spinning with the wind no higher than that necessary to bring a spinning mill to cutin.  If you need more wind than that to get the mill moving, in low but useful winds it will just sit there - or if started by a gust it will soon be stopped by a lull.  Low but useful winds are exactly when you most need it to be generating whatever it can.  (If the cogging is too severe the mill won't start in winds lower than hurricane force, so it becomes a decoration rather than a power source.)

Radial flux machines, usually built by converting a motor by altering or replacing the rotor, also have cogging issues.  But the stator core is manufactured by stamping - a very accurate process - so it's reasonably easy to arrange the magnets on the modified or replaced rotor to keep cogging low.  Axial flux machines are more "freehand" and the geometry of the magnets not optimized to make cogging suppression easy.  So even if carefully designed to avoid cogging, constructing them accurately requires working to tight tolerances, while a coreless design can be built to ridiculously loose tolerance and work just fine.  Cogging is not an issue at all without the stator cores.

This is why we usually use coreless stators in radial-flux machines, compensating for the longer flux path by using stronger magnets.  All the core buys you is the short flux path, allowing the use of weaker magnets and/or closer magnet spacing for higher output frequency and more power from a given area.

If you have a lot of cogging, and it's a polyphase design and has a lot of poles, all is not lost.  By offsetting the magnets somewhat on different pole positions you can smooth out the transitions and reduce the cogging substantially (in principle you might even be able to eliminate it).  You'll want to do this symmetrically on opposite sides of the rotor so you don't introduce a vibratory force trying to rotate the axle on the other dimensions, with the stator trying to move the way a coin behaves when finally settling down after rolling.  (For a single-phase design you need to switch between the field going through the cores one way and going the other way, so there's an averages-to-nothing state between them.  So you're stuck with high hills and low valleys, lowering them lowers your output, and the best you can do is optimize the slopes between them.)

joestue

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Re: axial generator with lamination core
« Reply #67 on: August 28, 2018, 05:02:27 PM »
the LCM of 45 and 50 is 450, so cogging should not be too big of an issue if the geometry is correct.

when i made my 30 pole 36 slot machine, there was a 36 position cogging because the air gap was not the same thickness all the way around.

edit:  there was a 30 position cog because one of the magnets had 25% of it broken off. i then glued that magnet back together.
The 180 position cog due to the LCM is almost imperceptible compared to the 30 or 36 pole cogging, of which i never actually counted to verify if its 30 or 36,  but you can feel both it and the 180 LCM.
I can visually see that the air gap isn't consistent. the air gap probably isn't even round because i had welded up the rotor and then machined it in a mill, rather than a lathe, because i didn't have a lathe at the time.

compounding this particular problem is that motor used sleeve bearings so static friction is 10 times what it could be.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2018, 10:22:52 PM by joestue »
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Ungrounded Lightning Rod

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Re: axial generator with lamination core
« Reply #68 on: August 28, 2018, 06:11:27 PM »
the LCM of 45 and 50 is 450, so cogging should not be too big of an issue if the geometry is correct.

The LCM doesn't have much, if anything, to do with it.

The relevant issues can be closely approximated by drawing a graph like this:
 - Horizontal axis is the shaft angle, running from an arbitrarily chosen angle to the next angle where the pole pieces have an equivalent relationship but with the magnert poles, or the coil poles, displaced by one step.
 - Vertical axis is the total area of the patches where part of a stator core pole is directly opposite a rotor core pole.  (The height is a very close, though inverted, approximation of the energy needed to separate the poles, and the relative height of two positions of the enegy needed - or recovered - moving the shaft between them.)

If the graph is flat, you have no cogging.  If the graph is hilly you have cogging.  The greater the distance between the peaks and the valleys, the more cogging you have.

As you can see, the graph is dependent on the shapes and positions of the poles, but not the number of them.

joestue

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Re: axial generator with lamination core
« Reply #69 on: August 28, 2018, 06:20:50 PM »
the LCM of 45 and 50 is 450, so cogging should not be too big of an issue if the geometry is correct.

The LCM doesn't have much, if anything, to do with it.

you've never built a concentrated pole motor have you?
My wife says I'm not just a different colored rubik's cube, i am a rubik's knot in a cage.

mbouwer

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Re: axial generator with lamination core
« Reply #70 on: August 29, 2018, 05:09:54 AM »
The assembly. At about 60 rpm it shows 50 volts between the phases.
Now I can measure the torque that is needed to start.

electrondady1

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Re: axial generator with lamination core
« Reply #71 on: August 29, 2018, 07:30:59 AM »
but this is a dual rotor  axial flux alternator

mbouwer

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Re: axial generator with lamination core
« Reply #72 on: September 03, 2018, 01:54:47 PM »
Starting torque is 3.6 Nm.  At 1.5 mm. airgab and 60 RPM.  cogging problem hardly noticeable. Only a soft hum.

« Last Edit: September 03, 2018, 02:05:12 PM by mbouwer »

hiker

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Re: axial generator with lamination core
« Reply #73 on: September 03, 2018, 05:39:00 PM »
Nice..time to Fly...
WILD in ALASKA

electrondady1

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Re: axial generator with lamination core
« Reply #74 on: September 04, 2018, 07:44:48 AM »
50 volts @ 60 rpm is a powerful alternator .

mbouwer

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Re: axial generator with lamination core
« Reply #75 on: September 05, 2018, 04:43:46 AM »
The generatorcontroller must be made by someone with expertise in that area.
Meanwhile I can continue with the other components.

mbouwer

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Re: axial generator with lamination core
« Reply #76 on: September 07, 2018, 04:23:51 AM »
Yaw bearing axle.

mbouwer

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Re: axial generator with lamination core
« Reply #77 on: September 09, 2018, 04:44:38 AM »
Now I can mount the generator on the yaw bearing.

mbouwer

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Re: axial generator with lamination core
« Reply #78 on: September 13, 2018, 04:33:54 AM »
Rear view.

mbouwer

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Re: axial generator with lamination core
« Reply #79 on: September 27, 2018, 04:30:10 AM »
Shaping the generator housing.

DamonHD

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Re: axial generator with lamination core
« Reply #80 on: September 27, 2018, 04:52:44 AM »
How did you shape that and what is the material?

(You probably said it all and I missed it, in which case please point to where you did!)

Rgds

Damon
« Last Edit: September 27, 2018, 08:49:22 AM by DamonHD »
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midwoud1

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Re: axial generator with lamination core
« Reply #81 on: September 27, 2018, 06:52:29 AM »
Hi mbouwer .

Keep your stator cooling in mind.

 Rgds. Fbm

mbouwer

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Re: axial generator with lamination core
« Reply #82 on: September 28, 2018, 03:56:22 AM »
The material is polyester and I used a cardboard mould.

No moisture should reach the generator but I will have to make cooling fins and slots.

mbouwer

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Re: axial generator with lamination core
« Reply #83 on: September 30, 2018, 02:50:01 AM »
With the blade suspension.

electrondady1

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Re: axial generator with lamination core
« Reply #84 on: September 30, 2018, 08:45:07 AM »
slick

mbouwer

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Re: axial generator with lamination core
« Reply #85 on: October 02, 2018, 05:16:49 AM »
Each blade shaft is mounted with 12 x M3 bolts.

SparWeb

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Re: axial generator with lamination core
« Reply #86 on: October 04, 2018, 12:48:30 AM »
Fantastic.  It's just begging you for blades, now.   8)
No one believes the theory except the one who developed it. Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.
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mbouwer

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Re: axial generator with lamination core
« Reply #87 on: October 05, 2018, 05:02:09 AM »
The slide bearings embedded in the polyester blades.
I now have the blade axles and hubs, and the foam blade cores.

mbouwer

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Re: axial generator with lamination core
« Reply #88 on: October 07, 2018, 05:55:50 AM »
Now the blades are 1.30 m.

I want to mount them on the nacelle in a way so that no moisture can get in.
Therefore I first have to modify the suspension a bit.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2018, 03:54:24 AM by mbouwer »

mbouwer

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Re: axial generator with lamination core
« Reply #89 on: October 10, 2018, 03:57:47 AM »
But I think totally rearanging the whole set up will give more benefits ( f.e. less weight )
First trying to shape a lighter hub.

mbouwer

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Re: axial generator with lamination core
« Reply #90 on: October 13, 2018, 05:17:57 AM »
More lightweight constructed hub and fixed magnet ring.

Mary B

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Re: axial generator with lamination core
« Reply #91 on: October 13, 2018, 03:53:47 PM »
Might be giving up to much steel for the magnetic flux path...

joestue

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Re: axial generator with lamination core
« Reply #92 on: October 13, 2018, 06:21:04 PM »
Might be giving up to much steel for the magnetic flux path...

probably not, but i don't understand why the weight matters anyways.

for a .8T field strength the iron behind the magnet only needs to be a fourth of the width of the magnet.
My wife says I'm not just a different colored rubik's cube, i am a rubik's knot in a cage.

mbouwer

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Re: axial generator with lamination core
« Reply #93 on: October 14, 2018, 04:38:13 AM »
In my opinion, weight is the scourge for windmills.
It costs money and it makes your turbine less manageable.

Mary B

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Re: axial generator with lamination core
« Reply #94 on: October 14, 2018, 04:03:37 PM »
From my understanding the flux lines extend into the plate on all 4 sides...

jenkinswt

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Re: axial generator with lamination core
« Reply #95 on: October 14, 2018, 06:52:40 PM »
I dunno, Jacobs had 150 pound armatures and it takes nothing to get the blades turning in a light wind. I would give up some efficiency for reliability/ strength. But I'm not sure if that is what this project is about? It all looks very impressive on the attention to detail. Are you trying to design a commercial product or is there a particular need for this turbine? I'm definitely not trying to pick, just curious more than anything.

joestue

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Re: axial generator with lamination core
« Reply #96 on: October 14, 2018, 08:38:31 PM »
From my understanding the flux lines extend into the plate on all 4 sides...

Yes, so the plate can be even thinner. if you figure the steel plate can handle 1.6T field strength while still having a permeability of 100 at that strength, then you'll only lose less than 1% of the air gap flux with a plate 1/4th as thick as the width of the magnet compared to a thicker plate where the permiability of the steel would be say, 1000 at 1.3T so for if i recall correctly OP's 8mm wide magnets you only need a 2mm thick plate. and he may not even have an 0.8T air gap flux.
My wife says I'm not just a different colored rubik's cube, i am a rubik's knot in a cage.

mbouwer

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Re: axial generator with lamination core
« Reply #97 on: October 15, 2018, 04:46:39 AM »
My goal is liaising with windmillfriends to learn how to build a small reliable windmill.

Supporting frames for the blade bearing arrangement.

« Last Edit: October 15, 2018, 04:57:45 AM by mbouwer »

mbouwer

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Re: axial generator with lamination core
« Reply #98 on: October 16, 2018, 04:10:48 AM »
New blade suspension. Now the pitch control components have to be made.