Author Topic: Hugh article on VAWTs  (Read 11472 times)

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topspeed

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Re: Hugh article on VAWTs
« Reply #66 on: June 07, 2019, 02:01:02 PM »
Thank you E-dady1 and Ed for the encouraging words.

---


In fact a funny thing happened yesterday...I called a retired principal of our University here in Oulu ( that I haven't talked for 25 years ). I asked an advice in fluid mechanics and how to get it in the University. He told me to call the new technical department chief...today I called the principal to thank him for the information..as it seemed to get me somewhere....and he said make your doctorate while you are at it ! I could not believe it...I have been very emotional the whole day.
These wind turbines must for that reason in a deeper sense be of a timeless beauty, so that they do not in three or four decades hence burden a later generation with a heavy task of removing angular skeletons.....

Ulrich Hütter

Aerodynamics is highly educated guessing, worked out to 5 decimals

SparWeb

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Re: Hugh article on VAWTs
« Reply #67 on: June 07, 2019, 10:34:42 PM »
Quote
...and he said make your doctorate while you are at it ! I could not believe it..

Now that IS the best way to learn!  It is never too late.
No one believes the theory except the one who developed it. Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.
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MagnetJuice

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Re: Hugh article on VAWTs
« Reply #68 on: June 08, 2019, 01:07:45 AM »
Juke, I can sense your excitement about the possibility of continuing your education. Whatever you do, I wish the best for you. If you have the opportunity to make your doctorate, go for it.

I love quotes from famous people that have gone before us. Some of those quotes help us to overcome obstacles or avoid pitfalls. Here is a quote from Malcolm Forbes:

“The purpose of education is to replace an empty mind with an open one”


I think that what he meant to say is that education is meant to open your mind to the future and new discoveries and possibilities.

University students study the past, but it is a mistake to stay in the past.

Claudius Ptolemy was one of the smartest people living about 2,000 years ago. Students at the time learned that the Earth was the center of the solar system. Then, about 500 years later, Galileo risked his life to say that the Sun was the center of the solar system, and he was right.

About 200 years later came Newton, he discovered some laws that have served us very well. We have managed to send rockets into space and go to the moon by following his laws.

Today the theories of Einstein rule, but for how long?

Twenty, forty or sixty years from now, the students of today with an open mind and a thirst for knowledge will discover new laws, and those laws will guide humanity for a while, if we still here.

Are the laws of thermodynamics set in stone? Only time will tell.

OK, back to your project now. That blue blade in the background looks very intriguing. I would love to see close-ups of it. Unless there are trade secrets that you don't want to reveal. If that is the case, I can understand.

Ed
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topspeed

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Re: Hugh article on VAWTs
« Reply #69 on: June 08, 2019, 02:27:23 AM »
Juke, I can sense your excitement about the possibility of continuing your education. Whatever you do, I wish the best for you. If you have the opportunity to make your doctorate, go for it.

I love quotes from famous people that have gone before us. Some of those quotes help us to overcome obstacles or avoid pitfalls. Here is a quote from Malcolm Forbes:

“The purpose of education is to replace an empty mind with an open one”


I think that what he meant to say is that education is meant to open your mind to the future and new discoveries and possibilities.

University students study the past, but it is a mistake to stay in the past.

Claudius Ptolemy was one of the smartest people living about 2,000 years ago. Students at the time learned that the Earth was the center of the solar system. Then, about 500 years later, Galileo risked his life to say that the Sun was the center of the solar system, and he was right.

About 200 years later came Newton, he discovered some laws that have served us very well. We have managed to send rockets into space and go to the moon by following his laws.

Today the theories of Einstein rule, but for how long?

Twenty, forty or sixty years from now, the students of today with an open mind and a thirst for knowledge will discover new laws, and those laws will guide humanity for a while, if we still here.

Are the laws of thermodynamics set in stone? Only time will tell.

OK, back to your project now. That blue blade in the background looks very intriguing. I would love to see close-ups of it. Unless there are trade secrets that you don't want to reveal. If that is the case, I can understand.

Ed

Ed,

It is a bit of a trade secret, but it is a hybrid  "flying wing blended with practicality". I try to understand the mechanism and the tight circle it has to travel as a whole....and put all these sorta like into an instrument...that is sound...and sounds like it. My approch is like with a violin maker than die hard aerodynamicist with CFD and big wind tunnel.

Enclosed foil is close to it. My foil is 16% thick. It seems to have an enermous torque as it starts by itself when the generator is on.

rgds,

Juke
These wind turbines must for that reason in a deeper sense be of a timeless beauty, so that they do not in three or four decades hence burden a later generation with a heavy task of removing angular skeletons.....

Ulrich Hütter

Aerodynamics is highly educated guessing, worked out to 5 decimals

MagnetJuice

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Re: Hugh article on VAWTs
« Reply #70 on: June 09, 2019, 08:02:51 PM »
Well, if it is a bit of a trade secret I think we will not see you post many images. But that is OK, I think that I know where you are heading. With a combination of lift and drag it could be possible to control the speed, but it will take a lot of experimentation.

I don't know how much wind is in your area, but if you can build a real rotor and test it outdoors, the collected data would be more realistic.

If you are thinking about a design to be commercialized, the track record for commercial VAWT turbines is not very good. The last 20 years have seen manufacturers of VAWT's come and go like the waves of the ocean. They start small, pick up speed, and come to shore and crash. Then the next wave comes and do the same.

In my opinion, there is not a sustainable market for commercial VAWT's. They cost too much for the power that they produce. And people that can pay $15,000 for a turbine usually have the land to put a tower with a HAWT. But the biggest problem is, for the most part there is not enough clean winds at low altitude to produce any significant amount of power.

Still, there are some companies out there making money selling junk to gullible people. A Company in Missouri keeps selling not VAWT's but converted car alternators for people to mount on top of their houses. And he tells people that five or seven blades on the rotor are better than 3 blades. People should do some research before parting with their money and then having a bad experience and giving a bad name to wind power.

There is a lot of cynicism today about VAWT's, but I believe it is because of the aggressive marketing tactics, lies and exaggerated power ratings of the majority of manufacturers of Vertical turbines. The cynicism is not directed at the Vertical turbine itself. I think the majority of the users in this website don't care what device people use to produce energy. Some people use Horizontal turbines, some use Verticals, some use a water wheel or a generator mounted on a bicycle. There was a guy that built a small alternator that was gerbil powered. That was Dan Fink, I'm sure most people here know who he is.

I always encourage people to build something and start learning and generate a little power. For example one of my neighbors. He is about 50 pounds overweight and wanted to lose some weight. One evening he invited me over for a beer and started telling me about an idea he had to generate power and lose a few pounds. He wanted to build a flywheel with a generator attached to it and power it by gravity. He wanted to have a long chain with a lot of gears coming out of the attic window of his 2-story house all the way to the ground. His idea was to go out of the attic window, hook himself to the chain and slowly come down to the ground, using gravity to spin the flywheel. Then run back to the attic and do it again and again. He asked me what I thought of his idea. I took a long drink from my beer, looked him in the eye, scratched my head, and after a long pause I just changed the conversation. We started talking about less controversial subjects, like the politics in the U.S.  :D

I didn't want to encourage him. I didn't want him to get hurt, but I think it was not a bad idea. It sounds crazy but he can't be crazy. After all, he is Canadian. There are no crazy people in Canada, only peaceful people that get along with everybody.  :)

Concerning commercial VAWT's, in my opinion there are some that have a good design and could be efficient. For example there were two manufacturers that use the Gorlov helical blades, the X-Wind and the Quiet Revolution.
 

X-Wind, in my opinion was a great design. Too bad it went out of business two years ago. It was founded in 2010 by Michael Blaize, a French engineer who has spent most of his life trying to make race cars go faster and missiles more accurate. He designed a blade profile called the XWA-003 and applied for patents for it in a lot of countries.
11872-2

I tried to find out what blade profile Quiet Revolution uses, but was not able to. I saw some information that alluded that the blade was a NACA 4412, but I think it was a conventional symmetrical NACA 0015 or 0012.
11873-3

Quiet Revolution also hit the shore and crashed in 2014. Who's next?

Ed
« Last Edit: June 09, 2019, 10:24:47 PM by MagnetJuice »
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topspeed

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Re: Hugh article on VAWTs
« Reply #71 on: June 10, 2019, 02:48:10 AM »
Yes Ed...the VAWt and especially H-Darreus is not very popular..in the big market.

I think there are 3 reason to that !


1. The control pitch HD is just 40 years old innovation. Despite the facts the McDonnell Aircraft Giromill brought about the research stalled there and then. Universities only run tests on computers and not real turbines.

2. The phenomena of what happens in a cycloturbine exactly is not known....and it is hard to measure. There is also misinformation about it in the papers.

3. The developement of the H-Darreus has not reached its peak....due to aforementioned flaws in its research and testing....and absolutely no testing on bigger models in any meaningful Re-number area.


Juke
These wind turbines must for that reason in a deeper sense be of a timeless beauty, so that they do not in three or four decades hence burden a later generation with a heavy task of removing angular skeletons.....

Ulrich Hütter

Aerodynamics is highly educated guessing, worked out to 5 decimals

Adriaan Kragten

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Re: Hugh article on VAWTs
« Reply #72 on: June 10, 2019, 01:37:27 PM »
There are more disadvantages of the Darrieus rotor than the three mentioned above. In my free public report KD 215 of 2004, I give 13 disadvantages (and only 3 advantages). Some disadvantages can be solved but at a certain price and very easily a new disadvantage is created if one disadvantage is solved. Disadvantage no 13 is that there is no simple aerodynamic theory to design a Darrieus rotor but in my public report KD 601 I have derived a simple theory from the theory of a HAWT, so point 13 of KD 215 is no longer valid. Anyone who wants to design a Darrieus rotor should read KD 215 to know what kind of problems can be expected. If after reading KD 215, you still believe in this concept, you must go for it but if you want to build wind turbines commercially, you can better go for a HAWT.

topspeed

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Re: Hugh article on VAWTs
« Reply #73 on: June 10, 2019, 03:12:22 PM »
Where can I find the KD 214 ?

Do you see what is wrong here for instance ?
These wind turbines must for that reason in a deeper sense be of a timeless beauty, so that they do not in three or four decades hence burden a later generation with a heavy task of removing angular skeletons.....

Ulrich Hütter

Aerodynamics is highly educated guessing, worked out to 5 decimals

JW

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Re: Hugh article on VAWTs
« Reply #74 on: June 10, 2019, 03:49:22 PM »
What is Adriaan Kragten website were hoping that we can put it on his signature.

Has worked for years, and has built hardware were impressed with.

https://kdwindturbines.nl/


ALSO i heard you mention that you are working on "trade secret"


Your talking to someone who has 3 US Utility Patents. Patents teach and trade secrets do not. 
« Last Edit: June 10, 2019, 04:24:13 PM by JW »

MagnetJuice

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Re: Hugh article on VAWTs
« Reply #75 on: June 10, 2019, 09:11:15 PM »
I found another Forum where Juke goes by the username fountainkopf. He sounds like a salesman for ANEW Turbines.

Here is the link so some users here get to know you a little better.

https://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?p=159264782

And here is another thread where fountainkopf expounds his expertise.

https://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=1584653&page=5

Maybe Adrian or someone else wants to keep this going, I don't have time for this.

Ed
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JW

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Re: Hugh article on VAWTs
« Reply #76 on: June 10, 2019, 09:28:56 PM »
Just remember I was the one who locked this topic a while ago. you meant to say that was censoring. There were was a time that I told you not to feed the crocodiles....

"Maybe Adrian or someone else wants to keep this going, I don't have time for this."

 Ya you were the one sticking up for this topic...

MagnetJuice

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Re: Hugh article on VAWTs
« Reply #77 on: June 10, 2019, 09:51:56 PM »
JW, I was just trying to make a new user feel welcomed.

Is there something wrong with that?

Ed
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JW

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Re: Hugh article on VAWTs
« Reply #78 on: June 10, 2019, 10:18:32 PM »
No its not an issue

====unknown
« Last Edit: June 11, 2019, 03:45:41 PM by JW »

MagnetJuice

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Re: Hugh article on VAWTs
« Reply #79 on: June 10, 2019, 10:36:17 PM »
.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2019, 03:46:14 PM by JW »
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JW

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Re: Hugh article on VAWTs
« Reply #80 on: June 10, 2019, 10:53:20 PM »
;) thanks for that.

« Last Edit: June 11, 2019, 10:45:55 AM by JW »

topspeed

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Re: Hugh article on VAWTs
« Reply #81 on: June 11, 2019, 12:42:06 AM »
I found another Forum where Juke goes by the username fountainkopf. He sounds like a salesman for ANEW Turbines.

Here is the link so some users here get to know you a little better.

https://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?p=159264782

And here is another thread where fountainkopf expounds his expertise.

https://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=1584653&page=5

Maybe Adrian or someone else wants to keep this going, I don't have time for this.

Ed


Ed,

Looks that you are not really welcoming the polish people to the west ?

They have established a wind turbine company already in 1989....and been able to test their systems now 30 years.

Furthermore Mark Drela is from Poland...an MIT specialist in aerodynamics.

I actually see the ANEW as my worst competitor if I get my "pump" running anytime soon.

---

More...I did read te Adrians paper....and I did not see study on pitch controlled H-Darreus types.

Best source for that is the McDonnell Aircraft paper from NREL in 1978. They built 2 turbines both with actuating blades.

I started working on my first HD in 2014 just to test my idea for its pitch control system...in order to put up a start -up for it ! I never even saw the ANEW system before 2015.

---

I cannot claim 60-70% efficiency for my system...I haven't even means to do it yet. But I can confirm it has a strong gyroforce in it...it starts by itself...and runs smoothly at high wing speed ( unlike the ANEW systems ).

---

Have a good day everyone !

Juke
These wind turbines must for that reason in a deeper sense be of a timeless beauty, so that they do not in three or four decades hence burden a later generation with a heavy task of removing angular skeletons.....

Ulrich Hütter

Aerodynamics is highly educated guessing, worked out to 5 decimals

Adriaan Kragten

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Re: Hugh article on VAWTs
« Reply #82 on: June 11, 2019, 03:04:27 AM »
All my free public KD-reports and manuals (more than ninety now) can be found on my website www.kdwindturbines.nl at the menu KD-reports. This menu starts with a folder in which all public KD-reports are mentioned and a folder which gives the optimum sequence of reading the reports.

KD 215 about the Darrieues rotor ends with the sentence: "I believe that any activity in this field will appear to be a waste of time and money and therefore I will answer no questions about this report". That was written in 2004 when I was still commercially active. Now I am retired an I can afford to spend time on this forum even about this subject. Writing of report KD 601 in 2015 is also in contradiction with this sentence but the rotor given in KD 601 was ment to drive a centrifugal pump and then a vertical shaft prevents a gear box. For driving of a generator, a vertical shaft isn't a big advantage as the electricity cable can easily be bent and twisted.

In the simple aerodynamic theory which I give in KD 601, I assume that the wind speed is constant in the area which is touched by the rotor. But as the rotor is extracting energy from the wind, it is wrong to assume that this wind speed is equal to the undisturbed wind speed V. Similar to a HAWT, one has to take a wind speed which is 2/3 V.

Information about a pitch controlled H-Darrieus rotor isn't given in KD 215 but in KD 601.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2019, 04:31:16 AM by Adriaan Kragten »

topspeed

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Re: Hugh article on VAWTs
« Reply #83 on: June 11, 2019, 01:57:34 PM »
All my free public KD-reports and manuals (more than ninety now) can be found on my website www.kdwindturbines.nl at the menu KD-reports. This menu starts with a folder in which all public KD-reports are mentioned and a folder which gives the optimum sequence of reading the reports.

KD 215 about the Darrieues rotor ends with the sentence: "I believe that any activity in this field will appear to be a waste of time and money and therefore I will answer no questions about this report". That was written in 2004 when I was still commercially active. Now I am retired an I can afford to spend time on this forum even about this subject. Writing of report KD 601 in 2015 is also in contradiction with this sentence but the rotor given in KD 601 was ment to drive a centrifugal pump and then a vertical shaft prevents a gear box. For driving of a generator, a vertical shaft isn't a big advantage as the electricity cable can easily be bent and twisted.

In the simple aerodynamic theory which I give in KD 601, I assume that the wind speed is constant in the area which is touched by the rotor. But as the rotor is extracting energy from the wind, it is wrong to assume that this wind speed is equal to the undisturbed wind speed V. Similar to a HAWT, one has to take a wind speed which is 2/3 V.

Information about a pitch controlled H-Darrieus rotor isn't given in KD 215 but in KD 601.

Are you absolutely sure about this ?
These wind turbines must for that reason in a deeper sense be of a timeless beauty, so that they do not in three or four decades hence burden a later generation with a heavy task of removing angular skeletons.....

Ulrich Hütter

Aerodynamics is highly educated guessing, worked out to 5 decimals

SparWeb

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Re: Hugh article on VAWTs
« Reply #84 on: June 11, 2019, 10:59:48 PM »
Quote
Are you absolutely sure about this ?

Yes.


Quote
I cannot claim 60-70% efficiency for my system...I haven't even means to do it yet. But I can confirm it has a strong gyroforce in it...it starts by itself...and runs smoothly at high wing speed ( unlike the ANEW systems ).

Neither of those things determine your machine's ability to extract energy from the wind.


What is the source of your most recent attached image?  It appears to be from a source about swept aircraft wings.  Please quote the source.


I suggest you consider the big picture...
If you continue to talk randomly about unfounded claims and throw around numbers without sources, references, or links to the analysis that generated them - and completely irrelevant to your project, too - consider how far you are throwing your credibility into the toilet. 

If you ever do discover something valuable or build something that really works, why should anyone believe anything you say?

Didn't anyone tell you the story of the boy who cried wolf?
No one believes the theory except the one who developed it. Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.
System spec: 135w BP multicrystalline panels, Xantrex C40, DIY 10ft (3m) diameter wind turbine, Tri-Star TS60, 800AH x 24V AGM Battery, Xantrex SW4024
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topspeed

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Re: Hugh article on VAWTs
« Reply #85 on: June 11, 2019, 11:26:16 PM »
Quote
Are you absolutely sure about this ?

Yes.


Quote
I cannot claim 60-70% efficiency for my system...I haven't even means to do it yet. But I can confirm it has a strong gyroforce in it...it starts by itself...and runs smoothly at high wing speed ( unlike the ANEW systems ).

Neither of those things determine your machine's ability to extract energy from the wind.


What is the source of your most recent attached image?  It appears to be from a source about swept aircraft wings.  Please quote the source.


I suggest you consider the big picture...
If you continue to talk randomly about unfounded claims and throw around numbers without sources, references, or links to the analysis that generated them - and completely irrelevant to your project, too - consider how far you are throwing your credibility into the toilet. 

If you ever do discover something valuable or build something that really works, why should anyone believe anything you say?

Didn't anyone tell you the story of the boy who cried wolf?

Hi SparWeb !

I have actually built many devices. In the same island I yesterday  made a new ( unofficial ) record for a HD TSR I also made flight tests with the world's first Rocallo-wing+boxkite hybrid...it was still airborne at 09:00 PM when there was no wind on the surface level. I could also carry on with my inventions..one interesting was an aeroplane design from 2009 that got a funding too. My natural modesty prohibits me from bragging with those.

I clocked TSR of 10.1 yesterday for the VAWT with my assistant. Wing was traveling at 365 km/h at 10 m/s wind ! No signs of fatique...just a walk in the park !


rgds,

Juke


PS: Source for the spanwise flow above is QUORA. It is related to the cyclotubine pressure..inside as it moves...Adrian knows what it means in air flow speed.
These wind turbines must for that reason in a deeper sense be of a timeless beauty, so that they do not in three or four decades hence burden a later generation with a heavy task of removing angular skeletons.....

Ulrich Hütter

Aerodynamics is highly educated guessing, worked out to 5 decimals

MagnetJuice

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Re: Hugh article on VAWTs
« Reply #86 on: June 12, 2019, 12:01:04 AM »
kitestrings started this Topic over a year ago and posted a link to Home Power magazine. Unfortunately the link doesn't work now because after 31 years of writing great articles to the RE community, Home Power close its doors in 2018.

For the benefit of those that click on the link and wonder what it was about, I'm posting the reader's question and Hugh Piggott's answer.

On March 19, 2018, kitestrings said:

Thought I'd share this recent response to a reader (Home Power) from Hugh P. on VAWTs:


QUESTION:

I am a longtime subscriber and wind power, solar thermal, and
solar-electric enthusiast. My rezoning application for a 6 kW
horizontal-axis wind turbine (HAWT) was denied due to height
restrictions in my semi-rural development. If I want a wind turbine,
it needs to be mounted on a shorter tower. Turbulence is a problem
here, so I have decided to try a vertical-axis wind turbine (VAWT).
Using this will not require submitting a rezoning application.
Is there a viable 5 to 10 kW rated VAWT that has been installed in
the United States in any appreciable volume in the last few years?
I would consider purchasing a foreign product as long as it has a
good track record and decent warranty.

Hans Sinkovec • Jefferson County, Colorado

ANSWER:

VAWT products are characterized by a high degree of marketing
hype, and a high rate of failure. High-speed VAWTs have problems
with startup and blade fatigue issues. Low-speed VAWTs have
terrible efficiency. Comparing the kWh per year of energy produced
on sites with the reference annual average wind speed of 5 m/s (11
mph), HAWTs produce 344 kWh per square meter, whereas VAWTs
produce only 201 kWh—58% as much for their size.

Just as it's not a good idea to put a HAWT on a windy and turbulent
site, because of the loads this puts on the blades, a VAWT is equally
likely to fail on any windy site for the same reason. VAWTs are often
sited too low to experience useful wind, so they do not fail.

Before you part with your money, find someone who already owns a
VAWT and can show you measurement data proving that it does what
it claims to do. Reliable VAWTs are rare, costly, and unproductive,
and using a VAWT at low height is not a solution. More likely the best
solution will be to install a PV system instead. A study published in the
Journal of Clean Energy Technologies based on typical European solar
irradiance concludes that PV energy is less costly than Darrieus-type
VAWT energy in annual mean wind speeds of less than 7 m/s (15 mph)
or Savonius-type turbines in wind speeds less than 10 m/s (22 mph).

Hugh Piggott • Scoraig, Scotland
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SparWeb

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Re: Hugh article on VAWTs
« Reply #87 on: June 12, 2019, 12:23:03 AM »
Hugh gets the last word.
No one believes the theory except the one who developed it. Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.
System spec: 135w BP multicrystalline panels, Xantrex C40, DIY 10ft (3m) diameter wind turbine, Tri-Star TS60, 800AH x 24V AGM Battery, Xantrex SW4024
www.sparweb.ca