Remote Living > Transportation
a few basic points about electric vehicles
jlsoaz:
Hi - a few points were made in a recent thread about electric vehicles that I'd like to respond to and in some cases clear up some misunderstandings (the thread has been closed, but I have been traveling and was not yet able to respond; hopefully if I stick to some fairly straightforward points they will be allowed as the start of a less messed-up discussion).
1.
Point: someone said that Lithium is a "Rare Earth" element and was discussing whether it's rarity would be a limiting factor in proposed global EV deployment in higher volumes.
Answer: No, it is not technically a "Rare Earth" element, but (more important than the technicality of how it is grouped) it does seem useful to point out that it is relatively rare and ask the question if this will be the limiting factor in an attempted global build-out of lithium-battery vehicles. The answer so far seems to be no. Just to give an idea:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium
"...According to a 2011 study by Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory and the University of California, Berkeley, the currently estimated reserve base of lithium should not be a limiting factor for large-scale battery production for electric vehicles because an estimated 1 billion 40 kWh Li-based batteries could be built with current reserves[92] - about 10 kg of lithium per car.[93] Another 2011 study at the University of Michigan and Ford Motor Company found enough resources to support global demand until 2100, including the lithium required for the potential widespread transportation use. The study estimated global reserves at 39 million tons, and total demand for lithium during the 90-year period analyzed at 12–20 million tons, depending on the scenarios regarding economic growth and recycling rates.[94]..."
So, yes, I know, it's just wikipedia summarizing this and that, but as I said, just to give an example.
As well, a useful point to keep in mind, in my view, can be that lithium ion batteries are not necessarily comprised of that much lithium by percentage (of weight or volume, I'm not sure)..... there are a number of other elements (such as Cobalt) and sometimes some of those are regarded as possibly more likely to be the limiting factors in global economical volume deployment.
2.
Regarding a basic point that is often raised by critics of EVs, the claim is that plug-in EVs are as polluting or more polluting than gasoline and diesel fueled vehicles due to the pollution that is tied to generating electricity. I think a few basic responses come immediately to mind:
a) first, even if in some cases an EV is installed in a dirty-electric-power-source situation, the world (taken as a whole) is moving toward increasingly cleaner power sources.
b) Even if a plug-in EV starts out life fueled by electricity derived from extraordinarily dirty sources, that can change. The owner may install solar panels or the the local power generator may evolve their power. The same generally cannot be said of fossil fueled vehicles, though there are some exceptions to this.
c) To answer a point from SparWeb, yes, both well-to-wheels debates and life-cycle analysis debates are hot-button topics with respect to electric vehicles. If you look hard enough you will find analyses which buttress this or that point of view. However, as time passes and more and more credible scientific analyses are done, the answer emerges that EVs are not the environmental boondoggle that the harshest critics would have us believe. A relatively recent example here in the US:
https://blog.ucsusa.org/rachael-nealer/gasoline-vs-electric-global-warming-emissions-953
Gasoline vs Electric—Who Wins on Lifetime Global Warming Emissions? We Found Out
RACHAEL NEALER, FORMER ENGINEER AND KENDALL SCIENCE FELLOW | NOVEMBER 12, 2015, 10:36 AM EST
I'm excited to introduce our newest analysis on electric cars, titled: Cleaner Cars from Cradle to Grave: How Electric Cars Beat Gasoline Cars in Lifetime Global Warming Emissions.
d) some comment was made as to my own pollution from my plug-in hybrid, given the dirtiness of the power grid in some parts of Arizona, USA. I believe I had already answered that (although my answer seems to be ignored). I have about 14-15 kWh production per day of solar on my house and there is a ~6 MW solar array down the street serving some of this small county's power needs, Also, my house uses much less than the average house (some days less than 10 kWh, some more than 40, but with an average somewhere in there). I don't think this sort of over-focus on any one individual's evolution toward cleaner sourcing for their EV miles is that productive, but given the lengths I've gone to harvest clean power and put some of the result in my car, and that I had tried to make this clear (including in the very subject heading of the thread), I don't think it is out of line for me to re-note this.
e) it has to be said that once the energy is stored onboard, EVs are very efficient (about 3 miles per kWh as a rule of thumb).
3.
As to grid reliability being negatively impacted by EVs, I am not certain of how to respond to that, but in regions of major EV deployment so far (eg: Norway, California, etc.) as far as I know, life and civilization have not broken down to the point of chaos where concentrations of EVs have been deployed, so I'm thiinking some of the concerns here, even if valid to a point, are (generalizing) overdone.
As to some locations maybe not being suitable yet (such as if some nations are not yet populated with public charge infrastructure or general grid infrastructure capable of handling widespread simultaneous charging), I'd say sure, it may be awhile before EVs are deployed there. And, if the issue is an individual who doesn't want to wait 30-60 minutes (or in some cases even longer) on a 400 mile trip, instead of 10 minutes for a refuel, then, by all means, don't get an EV.
4.
Silver-oxide and other types of technologies (supercaps) were raised. As to silver-oxide, I think it's a point well-taken as to energy densities, but may not be economical and are they used for secondary (rechargable?) batteries? The examples given (such as torpedoes) are more one-time-use types of uses, are they not?).
This seems useful:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silver-oxide_battery
"...A related rechargeable secondary battery usually called a silver–zinc battery uses a variation of silver–oxide chemistry. It shares most of the characteristics of the silver-oxide battery, and in addition, is able to deliver one of the highest specific energies of all presently known electrochemical power sources. Long used in specialized applications, it is now being developed for more mainstream markets, for example, batteries in laptops and hearing aids.[3][4]..."
I do seem to recall a race many years ago won by an EV powered by some sort of impractically expensive silver-containing battery.
As to supercaps, someone seemed to think they have progressed to the point of equaling energy volumetric or gravimetric densities of lithium ion battery variants, but I don't think they have. I could be wrong.
Even if wrong, in mainstream high-volume applications, lithium ion batteries and variants (LFP, etc.) have won the day amongst virtually all major automakers and are being deployed at the rate of something like 1m passenger vehicles per year around the world. Tables on this page give a quick idea of the worldwide numbers:
https://insideevs.com/monthly-plug-in-sales-scorecard/
So, aside from hashing out the status and details of this or that technology, I think the more important principle (in my view) is to understand that even though lithium ion batteries have their faults, they are already well along as the early preferred technology of mass-market electric vehicles and that they are "ready for use". Undoubtedly the world will get to the next technology at some point, maybe soon, but in the meantime, the present technology is apparently not as wanting as some might fear.
5. I personally view fossil fuel pollution (both in conventional pollution terms, and I do regard carbon as a pollutant) as a form of property damage and think that the cost of this should be reflected in the price. My stating this elicited a personal attack and a rather bizarre mischaracterization of my views. I would be happy to see the price of pollution property damage reflected in power prices. My stating of these points may have in some way violated the principles of the board (I don't know, maybe we try to avoid policy discussions and stay only with technical?).
6.
As to attempts to harm discussion of electric vehicles with straw-man argumentation, disinformation, broad-brush argumentation, even with personal attacks, I have tried generally to ignore such things and will continue to do so (though occasionally I guess I'll respond). For those who are interested in serious transportation discussion and relating it to the themes of this board, from where I sit, as time permits, that is of interest to me.
PS: I should add:
speaking only for myself.
electrondady1:
from your link.
Opinions differ about potential growth. A 2008 study concluded that "realistically achievable lithium carbonate production will be sufficient for only a small fraction of future PHEV and EV global market requirements", that "demand from the portable electronics sector will absorb much of the planned production increases in the next decade", and that "mass production of lithium carbonate is not environmentally sound, it will cause irreparable ecological damage to ecosystems that should be protected and that LiIon propulsion is incompatible with the notion of the 'Green Car'".[50]
According to a 2011 study by Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory and the University of California, Berkeley, the currently estimated reserve base of lithium should not be a limiting factor for large-scale battery production for electric vehicles because an estimated 1 billion 40 kWh Li-based batteries could be built with current reserves[92] - about 10 kg of lithium per car.[93] Another 2011 study at the University of Michigan and Ford Motor Company found enough resources to support global demand until 2100, including the lithium required for the potential widespread transportation use. The study estimated global reserves at 39 million tons, and total demand for lithium during the 90-year period analyzed at 12–20 million tons, depending on the scenarios regarding economic growth and recycling rates.[94]
electrondady1:
now will Argentina and bolilvia (big sources of lithium ) we willing to give up control of their deposits or will they need some "democracy" applied by B1s and B52s
Bruce S:
Let us not forget the deposits found in Afghanistan that is mapped as being as much as Bolivia.
JW:
--- Quote from: joestue ---http://www.fieldlines.com/index.php/topic,149410.msg1043521.html#msg1043521
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Have you guys noticed that RC cars have started to use 3 phase motors and controllers.
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