Im going to have to step in here....
All these EV posts as someone mentioned are getting personal. Bruce is out there and we need his balance.
What do you want George, your own section, because we can do that.
Hi JW:
Speaking as the original poster of this thread and a previous thread that was stopped:
- Generally, as mentioned, if someone does want to get my take, or disagree, or whatever, please just quote or reference directly whatever it is I have said that is agreed or disagreed, and I can politely respond, as time permits.
- I do think that my basic approach to this is correct and probably within the spirit of this and other forums, which is that if you really just can't find much of a toe-hold for constructive discussion in what someone else is saying to you, then maybe just leave it alone.... so that's what I'm doing. .... going through and finding a toe-hold here and there for interesting discussion..... I don't see the problem in that.
- I am not sure but I think I have given my reasons why I can't spend copious time reading through certain posts, or responding to them, notwithstanding if they directly quote me.
- As far as I know, EVs, in various ways, are a legitimate topic of discussion, as mentioned in a pinned thread.
- We are all part of a community and I don't want to be needlessly negative or dwell on a disagreement with someone. I will not read through his various posts for hours, but will try to respond to George65 on one or two points once in awhile.
Hi JW, on my last point, I am going to have to take this back; it is too ambitious. I have gone back and read through some of this thread, and the comments that were made (to me) were toxic enough so it just seems best for me to continue to make my points as possible, as constructively as possible. I will have to continue toignore posts that don't seem to be to the topic or to which I cannot find a way to respond constructively and efficiently.
However, I will try to meet the discussion partway, to address a part of the thread that has been particularly in contention:
I have been mis-portrayed as not taking vehicle affordability into account. On what basis? What did I say that led to this? Ok, actually I did not express myself perfectly (and there is actually an entire strange sentence about Formula 1 in one of my posts that doesn't sound like me, maybe it was the result of poor pasting or editing? I don't know?). So, anyway:
Discussing an outrageously expensive exclusive vehicle on the order of a Ferrari type price (and performance), and discussing some production-side considerations, does not necessarily mean that a discussion participant has lost track of mainstream middle-class vehicle-purchasing considerations. Maybe some of us just like to take a moment to discuss wonderful vehicle performance? Overall, while it is absolutely true that most new EVs at this point still cost more than their fossil fuel powered siblings, their cost-competetiveness is improving while their range is also improving. In the US, BEVS that cost USD $40k and travel 200+ miles on a charge are being sold as we speak. Vehicles at this price point only traveled about 80 miles when they first came out 6 years ago. BEVs which travel around 100-150 miles are I think being sold for less. PHEVs which cost only a few thousand more than their Fossil fuel siblings are in some cases selling well. The used market is maturing so that people like myself, who would have a harder time affording a new vehicle of any sort, can start to consider buying a used BEV or PHEV.
I see the EV markets as somewhat similar to where solar was 10 years ago or so. You still had critics hanging on and making facile unending comments as to how it was not cost competitive and implying that it never would be and (further) implying that advocates were oblivious to real-world business considerations. However, some folks understand that "presently expensive" does not mean "expensive forever". As we have seen, solar has become more cost-competitive in some ways, depending on the use.
EVs are presently expensive. This past year and going forward over the next few decades, different classes of EVs will start to reach price parity (or close to it) with comparable fossil fuel vehicles. Further, they will in some cases help save owners (or lessors or renters or sharers or riders) money in lower fuel and maintenance costs than might come up for fossil fuel vehicles. To be sure, they may still have their drawbacks (costing people time at refueling stations) and they aren't for everyone. It is though a very rapidly moving area.
I took some time to illustrate what I think is a really interesting point (that the technology is in some ways so extraordinary that even just a new startup can create a road-legal vehicle faster than a top-of-the-line Ferrari). I think this point is useful to know and understand. It does not necessarily mean that I or anyone else who makes it is clueless or ignoring or in any way failing to take into account about basic cost, business or economics considerations in the auto business.
On March 31, 2016, Elon Musk and Tesla started taking orders for the Model 3, .... a BEV that is designed to be competitive in price, style and other ways with the BMW 3-series or similar vehicles. Over the next few days or so, they received more than 300,000 deposits, sight-unseen. It was, in my view, an historic development ..... one of the most important days in US and maybe global business history. Never again would detractors be able to say "at those prices and with those specs, nobody wants them". Yes, actually they do. Tesla may even yet fall flat on its face trying to fill the orders (it is arguably rare for an automotive upstart to make it as far as they have already), but, regardless of what happens with them, they have proven a point that I think can never be taken away.
One other general point for now.... Other than myself and Paar, are any other forum participants past or present drivers of production EVs, or at least had a test-ride experience? I'm not sure that some of the more critical comments made reflect a really deep understanding of the pros and cons of EV ownership.