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jlsoaz

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Re: a few basic points about electric vehicles
« Reply #99 on: January 05, 2018, 10:33:24 AM »
So, some more basic points about electric vehicles, getting the conversation back on track, and a correction:

The correction is that I think there are two known board members who are drivers, myself and Simen.  Paar is from Norway and has made knowledgeable comments, but I don't know if they drive an EV.

As to driving one: Simen mentioned that he drives a Leaf.  I leased one 2012-2015, but it simply was inadequate for the distances I travel  and cost me a lot of time and money (the time to charge here and there, and the money to retain a cheap gasoline car).  I have saved up and bought a used PHEV (Chevy Volt) and the time issue is gone and while I'm not ecstatic about the financial expense, my own reaction is similar to Simen's - I'm not going back to a regular car.  Simen's BEV is to be sure more of an EV than my Volt PHEV.

- So, this leads me to a basic point that needs making - when I lived in California in the late 90s and started getting test rides in some of the small number of EVs that were there at the time, I realized that while the vehicles had significant drawbacks, they also had significant advantages (low NVH of the powertrain, smooth acceleration, for two examples).  In other words, in my view (then and now) they were in some ways simply better cars.

- Another point, as to the latest figures - in 2017 about 200,000 EVs (both BEV and PHEV) were sold in the US and I think more than 1m vehicles around the world (China being the world leader on this I think).  As to per capita, I'd be curious, maybe Norway?  To be sure, this 1,000,000 vehicles is only about 1%-2% of global sales, but the numbers are growing strongly.

- Does this trend toward mass-produced EVs fit in with making your own equipment?  I think it fits nicely with anyone who has renewables installed at their house, or who wants to reduce or stop their draw from the oil companies.  While it is certainly possible to make and work on your own BEV or PHEV, I personally am following the mass-produced markets.  As a parenthetic comment though, since PHEVs do come with internal combustion engines along with very large batteries, then I suppose they lend themselves more to folks who want to keep their hand in with working on engines.  I'm not sure about performance modifications by hobbyists or racers.  This is possible in EVs as well as PHEVs, including simple things like removing some weight.

- As to the concerns that have been raised about fires, there have not been that many.  I do really like learning more about safer chemistries, but as to what is happening in the marketplace right now, the one mentioned that incorporates silver is unfortunately not yet offered for purchase in production vehicles, that I"m aware.  This page gives a decent summary of lithium ion battery types and characteristics. 

http://batteryuniversity.com/index.php/learn/article/types_of_lithium_ion

in chronological order:
Lithium Cobalt Oxide(LiCoO2)  [Short form: LCO or Li-cobalt. Since 1991]
Lithium Manganese Oxide (LiMn2O4) [Short form: LMO or Li-manganese (spinel structure)  Since 1996]
Lithium Iron Phosphate(LiFePO4) [Short form: LFP or Li-phosphate Since 1996]
Lithium Nickel Cobalt Aluminum Oxide (LiNiCoAlO2)  [Short form: NCA or Li-aluminum. Since 1999]
Lithium Nickel Manganese Cobalt Oxide (LiNiMnCoO2 or NMC) [Short form: NMC (NCM, CMN, CNM, MNC, MCN similar with different metal combinations) Since 2008]
Lithium Titanate (Li4Ti5O12), [Short form: LTO or Li-titanate  Commercially available since about 2008.]

These are just summaries and different companies may try different things.  I have lost track of which ones are most prevalent in Plug-in vehicles, but one can see that the safety levels are considered significantly better in some than others.  I am not sure how much data is out there yet as to fires and harm per vehicle-mile traveled, as versus gasoline and diesel engines, but gasoline vehicle fires are common enough that the conversation should I think include some contrast for perspective.

Bruce S

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Re: a few basic points about electric vehicles
« Reply #100 on: January 09, 2018, 11:24:45 AM »
I've driven a 1st gen Tesla if that counts. Even have a pic of me just before I got in it. A very well respected person and friend up in Milwaukee , bought one and knowing my connection to this forum, allowed me to drive it.
We've also owned for about 5 years? an 48V 550Watt street legal scooter. This our daughter used for daily commuting which helped our Botanical gardens decide to install EV charging stations :). Alas their connectors do not match ours, easy enough to build an adapter, but when the scooter can make it home and still have 1/3 charge I'll keep it they way it is.

I've also used it to test different battery chemistries. FLA, SLA, NiCd, NiMh, and borrowing from a fellow member who built his own, used extra batteries to extend the distances.

Another long time poster "commanda" also has/had a road legal e-motorcycle that blows our away.

Back a few years there was a whole bunch of threads about e-bikes, it may be of some help too as it also dealt with distances.

Cheers
Bruce S
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jlsoaz

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Re: a few basic points about electric vehicles
« Reply #101 on: January 10, 2018, 01:01:09 AM »








I've driven a 1st gen Tesla if that counts. Even have a pic of me just before I got in it. A very well respected person and friend up in Milwaukee , bought one and knowing my connection to this forum, allowed me to drive it.
We've also owned for about 5 years? an 48V 550Watt street legal scooter. This our daughter used for daily commuting which helped our Botanical gardens decide to install EV charging stations :). Alas their connectors do not match ours, easy enough to build an adapter, but when the scooter can make it home and still have 1/3 charge I'll keep it they way it is.

I've also used it to test different battery chemistries. FLA, SLA, NiCd, NiMh, and borrowing from a fellow member who built his own, used extra batteries to extend the distances.

Another long time poster "commanda" also has/had a road legal e-motorcycle that blows our away.

Back a few years there was a whole bunch of threads about e-bikes, it may be of some help too as it also dealt with distances.

Cheers
Bruce S

Hi Bruce:

In the late 90s and early 2000s I lived in Southern California while the first Zero Emission Vehicle (ZEV) mandate was going on.  I couldn't afford to lease one of the rare EVs that was allowed into the wild (and for the most part none were for sale though eventually Toyota relented and sold some, I don't recall if many others).  However, I did take the opportunity to rent some (such as at the Budget rent-a-car at LAX, so that was how I did end up driving an EV1 once or twice.  I've never driven a Tesla though I've recently been in a couple of different models and a friend leasing a Model X was able to stop at my house and charge up.  Anyway, I found it invaluable to rent and drive those vehicles even if just for a little while, and even if all I did was confirm my suspicions as to pros and cons of the vehicles, and so I'm guessing being able to drive that Tesla a bit gave you some improved idea of things, or at least underscored some of your existing knowledge.

After those early-days test-drives, one of the things that I would express to folks was that, notwithstanding some of the negatives of electric vehicles (such as range before refueling) and apart from any environmental debates, it could be argued that in some ways EVs are simply better vehicles.  I think the reduced Noise Vibration and Harshness in a really good EV is something quite valuable and makes me want to drive the vehicle more.  Further, some EVs have excellent and very smooth acceleration.  The Tesla Model S has supplanted many Mercedes S-Class, BMW 7 Series and Audi A8 sales around the world and I think part of how that has happened is that, in some ways, it is simply a better vehicle.  If someone one had told me that a new American car company would come along and start from scratch and start to supplant such elite luxury sedan sales, I'd express skepticism.  Yet, somehow, that is what Tesla has done.  it is an amazing feat, and I think part of what made it possible is that EVs are, in some ways, simply better cars, even if in other ways they are worse.

Bruce S

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Re: a few basic points about electric vehicles
« Reply #102 on: January 10, 2018, 09:39:33 AM »
jlsoaz;
There were two things that I liked about the 1st gen. It was eerily quite, it was quick as lighting.
Elon has made people stop and think. Some things he's "out" there as far as I'm concerned, but I'm told it's because he's always thinking of the next "thing". After watching several of his talks and the TV mini-series "Mars" of which he is interviewed. I think some of it is snake-oil, some of it truly future thinking since he now has the money to be listen to, some of it him thinking he actually knows more than everyone else.

However, having said all that, I also believe he's helped push the EV market further than the big mass market wanted to, which is a good thing. When our neighbors go on vacation we, watch their dogs, and drive their hybrid Camry , This I would put up against any of the Tesla vehicles in quality versus price. Even after rebuilding it NiMh battery module , it continues to get 45+mpg. Last time I drove it the 12miles to work; I purposely took the streets to work and it never kicked in the ICE. That was pretty cool.  This is there area where I believe the Volt fits nicely into. I have a date with our local Enterprise rental to drive one they have.
Our e-scooter is so quiet, our daughter has scared more than one person in their cars that didn't even see much less hear her pull next to them. SOooo I installed a cute little freebie AA-battery powered radio :).

Bruce S
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george65

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Re: a few basic points about electric vehicles
« Reply #103 on: January 10, 2018, 11:57:18 AM »

 When our neighbors go on vacation we, watch their dogs, and drive their hybrid Camry , This I would put up against any of the Tesla vehicles in quality versus price. Even after rebuilding it NiMh battery module , it continues to get 45+mpg.

I just saw a pop up article ad about the tesla Supercharging.
I assumed, it turns out incorrectly, that supercharging was free. It's not any longer.

Looking at the page, https://www.tesla.com/en_AU/supercharger it shows a price comparison between and average petrol car consumption, and the cost of " refilling " a tesla.
If one looks at the comparison, the tesla isn't that much cheaper for miles driven. In typical BS tesla style, there is a note that the tesla recharge price includes the free 400 KWh they do give annually.  So what happens when you use that up and are paying full tilt?
Well according to the chart on teslas site, it would cost you MORE to recharge the tesla than to cover the same miles with a petrol car of not outstanding economy.  Do the comparison with a decently economical Diesel car, and the tesla looks pretty damn expensive.

I would gaurantee, the 400 free Kwh hours tesla give owners is wholly and soley to enable their PR machine to claim the tesla is cheaper to run than the IC consumption compared against.  Cheaper running copsts have been a huge lynchpin of EV marketing but in this case, it looks in reality to be a crock.

What a Surprise! Fancy someone like tesla making false or misleading over hyped claims! Who  ( other than the Koolaide drinking fan boys) would have ever thought such a thing possible?

Can't paste it here as shown with teh graphics but:

$195  Supercharger cost after the annual Supercharger credit  400 Kwh


$266   Petrol Cost

Distance Driven
3000 km

Charging costs are approximate. Charging cost estimate assumes Supercharger cost of $0.35 per kilowatt hour. Petrol cost assumes 7.7 litres per 100km at $1.15 per litre. Cost may vary depending on the vehicle location, configuration, battery age and condition, driving style and operation, and environmental and climate conditions.

If we multiply the free 400 Kw by .35 we get $140 worth of power.
Add that to the $195 which your next 3000Km is going to cost you and the price of that distance is now going to cost you $335.

$69 MORE than the IC.
So much for electric fuel savings. !!

And again, 7.7 isn't particularly economical these days. Even our locally built Full size family sedans get 8.3 L / 100 and that would STILL work out cheaper than the tesla both in fuel cost and about half the purchase price of a model 3 when they are now scheduled to arrive in 18 Months. An X would be roughly 5 times more to buy than the family sedan.

If we look at a hybrid camry, the consumption for that is 4.5L/ 100. Even the IC only model gets 7L/100.
Camry purchase cost, well you'd get 6 camrys for the price of a tesla and a good chunk of change as well.

And if we look at the cost of power at home, if you live in our most greenwashed Big Bs battery state, power there isn't 35c KWH, it's going to be closer to 45c+. A lot more if you charge during peak periods.

 So here we have another Load of BS from the masters of hype and broken promises and  another untruth of claims made by the EV vested interests.
got to admit, as a cynic, even i'm surprised by this. And feel like a sucker.
You just can't believe any of the claims from the Ev brigade without first verifying them. This isn't stuff I dreamt up, it's from Tesla's website and other manufacturers.
I get it now though. A recharge may be a lot cheaper than filling the tank on an IC car but how far does the electric go on that value?
I'm sure some little tiny EV's are cheaper to run but the question is, compared to what?
Wonder what  Diesel Polo would cost to cover 3000km as to the cost of power for a V/Bolt?
My money is on the VW.

Wonder how many of them I could buy for the cost of a model X? Bout a car carrier trailer full I'd think.

Bruce S

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Re: a few basic points about electric vehicles
« Reply #104 on: January 10, 2018, 03:43:14 PM »
George65
That's a pretty cool way to look at it for the larger cars. I would say I'm not in the market for a Telsa model anything. They are certainly our of my income bracket .

IF we ignore the Tesla sales pitch, cause ya know he's in it to sell not save the world :) .


Not sure what the measure of a tiny one is tho. Can you expand on that. The other numbers I'll work with gotta translate from L-G and Km to mi n-such.

I do have another question, those $$/Kw are those in your area? or general, cause boy those look steep! compared to ours.
We might have to go the cost per Kw even on liquid based since my head hurts translating from one to another and back.

In comparison, last time I looked at the Army's M1 tank? It got something like 3 gals/mi :)
AND VW lied to our general buying public so we'll need to find a person who actually owns one.

Cheers
Bruce S

NOTE: IF the OP or anyone else believes us to be getting too far off base, let US know, those of us willing to have non-name calling conversations can start a new thread in the PUB
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JW

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Re: a few basic points about electric vehicles
« Reply #105 on: January 10, 2018, 04:20:34 PM »
You have my support Bruce S

dnix71

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Re: a few basic points about electric vehicles
« Reply #106 on: January 10, 2018, 06:35:52 PM »
george65 I live in the US. The screen cap is Tesla's estimate for my area.
11041-0

The estimate for the cost of gasoline is higher than for 87 octane where I live. I pay about $2.40/gallon. The Tesla estimate of $2.73 is probably the US national average. You can check state averages here: http://www.gasbuddy.com/USA

Electricity cost vary greatly. 9 cents to over 35 cents per KWH retail. There is a 2.5x factor for average electric retail rates by state in the US. The US average retail rate is quite a bit lower than Tesla's 20 cents/KWH estimate

However, because of base rates and taxes I pay over 50 cents/KWH at home because I use less than 1 KWH a day. If I used a larger amount the rate drops to somewhere closer to 17 cents/kwh.

I drive about 8500 miles just to get to work and back each year. Tesla's chart showing 1500 miles driven is obviously a joke or a lie. My 26 year old Toyota gets a lot better than 21MPG too. 8500 miles x $2.40 / 52 weeks/year / 30MPG is about $13 a week for gas, which is very close to what I actaully spend. [$680/year]


george65

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Re: a few basic points about electric vehicles
« Reply #107 on: January 10, 2018, 07:37:23 PM »

I do have another question, those $$/Kw are those in your area? or general, cause boy those look steep! compared to ours.

Yes, the numbers are quite accurate for where I am and taken from the OZ tesla site as I linked.  I checked and verified them all with the expectation that anything I said would be refuted by the EV proponents and I better be able to back up what I said as credibility to myself is a lot more important that it appears to be to others...... Especially Tesla.

While the numbers may not be the same everywhere, the fact they are cheaper in the US, obviously a MAJOR market, just makes the discrepancy wider and the misinformation greater.
Tesla May not outright lie but only a very biased person would suggest they are not thin with the truth where it suits them and as for the amount of revisions for delivery dates on a number of it's products, I'd hardly call them reliable.

I will try to omit the invectives in my posts on this however I do get annoyed and believe they are much deserved when time and time again when one looks at the claims made by the environmental lobby and associated products and technology's, the lies,untruths and spin doctoring just continue to be exposed.  They would be locked up for perjury if they were to try the same thing in a court of law.

Once again, here is another verifiable huge lie and mis direction in order to push  a cause largely based on the environmental motivation.
If you want to talk about VW lying to the public, I think one needs to put that into context with things like this and see who is about the least trustworthy group in the world right now.

JW

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Re: a few basic points about electric vehicles
« Reply #108 on: January 10, 2018, 07:44:53 PM »
george65 your on 7 days of read only

dnix71

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Re: a few basic points about electric vehicles
« Reply #109 on: January 10, 2018, 08:40:16 PM »
Tesla is claiming $90/1500 miles [6 cents a mile] for the first 1500 miles. My Toyota costs $2.40 per gallon/30MPG [8 cents/mile] for any number of miles.

Tesla 'gives away' 400 kwh at 20 cents [$80 worth] that means the last $10 is what they estimate will be enough to take you to 1500 miles. That last 50 KWH costs you 50 cents/kwh on the supercharger. That's not cheap at all, but if you can afford a Tesla, then your time is worth the money.

450 kwh to go 1500 miles is 0.3 kwh/mile. I believe that number. If I wanted to go 8500 miles and bypass the supercharger for the last 7000 miles at 20 cents/kwh it would cost me $420 in addition to the $90 already spent. $510/year electricity vs $680/year gasoline on my Toyota. That's no where near enough to make owning a Tesla an attractive option. If Tesla didn't charge you up front and then give you back the $80, the numbers become $590 vs. $680.

frackers

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Re: a few basic points about electric vehicles
« Reply #110 on: January 10, 2018, 09:41:42 PM »
george65 your on 7 days of read only
Why? (I assume you mean you're not your)
Robin Down Under (Or Are You Up Over)

JW

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Re: a few basic points about electric vehicles
« Reply #111 on: January 10, 2018, 10:12:51 PM »
Re: a few basic points about electric vehicles
« Reply #98 on: January 04, 2018, 10:42:36 PM »

Quote from jlsoaz

Thanks, but no, I don't know why it would be moved somewhere else. This is an electric vehicle discussion, and that means it is part of transportation discussion.


Why move the OP's topic to the pub when he clearly does not want that. You have george65 causing that, not the OP we have no choice but to make george65 read only until he stops causing problems. Whats done is done Im sorry if you don't agree frackers

JW

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Re: a few basic points about electric vehicles
« Reply #112 on: January 10, 2018, 10:34:04 PM »
Just for the record I bought fieldlines.com from the Dan's and we finalized the deal last month.

JW 

jlsoaz

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Re: a few basic points about electric vehicles
« Reply #113 on: January 11, 2018, 12:12:37 AM »
[...]
I drive about 8500 miles just to get to work and back each year. Tesla's chart showing 1500 miles driven is obviously a joke or a lie. [...]

Hello dnix71, and all:

the information in question seems to be from this link:

https://www.tesla.com/supercharger

To try to clear up what appears to be a misunderstanding:

- I'm not sure where to find exact up-to-date stats, but I'm going to make an educated guess that most miles traveled by most BEVs are powered by electricity from the house or sources other than for-pay public charge stations.  There may well be exceptions to this, but I am generalizing (and also drawing from my own experience in operating both a BEV and a PHEV).  This data is from four years ago and is far from ideal, but just to give a quick idea:

https://insideevs.com/most-electric-vehicle-owners-charge-at-home-in-other-news-the-sky-is-blue/
81% of Electric Vehicle Charging is Done at Home
4 years ago   by Inside EVs Staff 26

In other words, the 3000 miles max presented at Tesla's link probably refers to an estimate of some sort of maximum that they project a driver would want to make use of a supercharger, and not to Tesla''s projection of the total miles a person drives in a year. 

It has taken folks (including some EV Industry insiders) awhile to adjust to the fact that public charging should not always be seen through the identical lens as old style gas stations.  Basically, gasoline vehicles are refueled at for-pay public stations and not at home.  Electric vehicles are often refueled at home though they may be refueled at public stations (for pay or otherwise) depending on the situation.

To be sure, EV technology is still growing up and EVs are not for everyone.  One can drive for 20,000 or 30,000 miles per year or more in a Tesla, but if it really bothers a person that much to wait at a supercharger for a half hour or more on a 300 or 400 mile trip, then get a comparable gasoline luxury sedan like a BMW 7 series, or perhaps something more affordable.

[addendum/edit]: One other point I meant to mention to clear something up: Superchargers are far from the only way to charge a Tesla outside the home or the workplace.   With an adapter they can be fueled at a CHAdeMO DC Quick charge station and of course at a public J1772 L2 type station.  They can also be plugged in to some conventional sockets.  Of course, if time is of the essence, then one would want to go with something faster than a wall socket or J1772, but sometimes a slow charge is fine.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2018, 12:34:25 AM by jlsoaz »

Bruce S

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Re: a few basic points about electric vehicles
« Reply #114 on: January 11, 2018, 11:16:55 AM »
Re: a few basic points about electric vehicles
« Reply #98 on: January 04, 2018, 10:42:36 PM »

Quote from jlsoaz

Thanks, but no, I don't know why it would be moved somewhere else. This is an electric vehicle discussion, and that means it is part of transportation discussion.


Why move the OP's topic to the pub when he clearly does not want that. You have george65 causing that, not the OP we have no choice but to make george65 read only until he stops causing problems. Whats done is done Im sorry if you don't agree frackers
Looks like I caused this problem and for that I apologize.
George65 and I are/were having an on-going discussion in the thread about costs of liquid-based fuels versus battery stored power and each's associated fuel costs.

I got a little worried that we had drifted into yet another tangent and wanted to make sure jlsoaz and everyone else posting/reading this thread were okay with it.

henceforth I'll merely wait for someone to ask about stay on track with the original basics of the thread.

Bruce S
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JW

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Re: a few basic points about electric vehicles
« Reply #115 on: January 11, 2018, 12:43:23 PM »
Ok I have released the read only for george65

dnix71

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Re: a few basic points about electric vehicles
« Reply #116 on: January 11, 2018, 07:15:03 PM »
jlsoaz There is a public charger at the Walmart at Oakland Park Blvd and University Drive in Sunrise a few miles from where I live. It can only handle one car at a time. That shopping center holds a couple of thousand ICE cars. The time it takes to recharge doesn't matter much as long as there are only a few EV's that must be plugged in. Otherwise it's just a cute perk for the rich. Hybrids that can plug in but can also run on their own ICE make much more sense.

This one require EVgo network subscription and a key fob.



There are over 6 million people living within a 30 mile radius of Fort Lauderdale and 4.5 million of them are registered drivers.
http://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/article68048512.html
http://www.flhsmv.gov/pdf/driver-vehiclereports/drivers.pdf

A search of Yelp! has there are just under 2000 gas station in Broward County, 1500 in Miami-Dade and 1300 in Palm Beach County for a total about 4800 stations. That works out to about 1 gas station per thousand registered drivers. It takes maybe 10 minutes to fill up and go from a gas station.

To refill an EV typically takes 4 to 8 hours. It would require 25 to 50 times the number of charging points for EV's as gasoline ICE's to provide the same level of service. When we have hurricanes and people are ordered to leave, it isn't even possible to supply enough gasoline in a timely fashion to get out of Florida.
http://time.com/money/4932036/florida-is-running-out-of-gasoline-this-app-is-helping-people-find-it/
https://www.clippercreek.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/TIME-TO-CHARGE-20171208_Final_low-res.pdf
« Last Edit: January 11, 2018, 07:51:34 PM by dnix71 »

JW

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Re: a few basic points about electric vehicles
« Reply #117 on: January 11, 2018, 07:22:08 PM »
I moved from Miami FL to Gatlinburg TN, there is a parking lot that has two parking spaces for recharging EV at the local Subway Subs. I can take a picture of the charging stations if anyone is interested.

jlsoaz

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Re: a few basic points about electric vehicles
« Reply #118 on: January 11, 2018, 11:02:29 PM »
I moved from Miami FL to Gatlinburg TN, there is a parking lot that has two parking spaces for recharging EV at the local Subway Subs. I can take a picture of the charging stations if anyone is interested.

At this crowdsourced-resource it may be possible to zoom in on the station you mention.

https://www.plugshare.com

However, I was unable to find a specific charge station labeled as being at a Subway in Gatlinburg, TN.  Is there a different name (such as a store next door or something)?

I rented an EV for a day via Turo in Miami about a year ago.  I'm not anxious to repeat the experience.  I'm not the greatest driver, or at least not consistent enough, and lack of familiarity in decent-sized cities and driving someone else's expensive vehicle is a recipe for a potential issue, so I was glad to return the vehicle.  I do have some pics somewhere of charging at a local grocery store.

This appears to be the station referenced by dnix71 in Sunrise, FL.  It appears to have the ability to charge two vehicles simultaneously on DC power and one vehicle on a slower AC connection.
https://www.plugshare.com/location/97647
Sunrise Town Centershare
CHAdeMO, CCS/SAE, EV Plug   
3426 N University Dr, Sunrise, FL 33351


In about 1.5 years of existence it seems pretty popular with drivers with the two complaints (in the comments section at the link, out of dozens of comments) being not because it was down but because it was in use.  (Crowding may sound bad, but it is quite frustrating to see a charge station that is represented on the map, but then is not well-maintained and causes a person to have to reroute a trip and risk running out of energy.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2018, 11:06:32 PM by jlsoaz »

jlsoaz

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Re: a few basic points about electric vehicles
« Reply #119 on: January 11, 2018, 11:10:51 PM »
I moved from Miami FL to Gatlinburg TN, there is a parking lot that has two parking spaces for recharging EV at the local Subway Subs. I can take a picture of the charging stations if anyone is interested.

Addendum:

This link gives a pretty good idea of how many public stations are set up in the US already. 

https://www.afdc.energy.gov/fuels/electricity_locations.html

I also like this historical chart, it gives a good idea of the growth in the number of public stations in the US.

Remember, this is just public stations.... with EVS, most of them are being charged at home, and many drivers (including myself, at times) may go weeks or months without charging publicly.

jlsoaz

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Re: a few basic points about electric vehicles
« Reply #120 on: January 11, 2018, 11:59:58 PM »
Hi dnix71, thanks for the thoughts.  This link appears to be to the station you mention:

https://www.plugshare.com/location/97647
Sunrise Town Centershare
CHAdeMO, CCS/SAE, EV Plug   
3426 N University Dr, Sunrise, FL 33351


I already mentioned a few things in responding to JW, but to take a moment to respond to a few of your points:

- As I mentioned, the most important thing is that while these public stations are nice, and are part of the equation such as for lengthy trips, looking at them does not provide the whole picture.  Many PHEV drivers, including myself, can go for weeks, months or years without using a public station, and some BEV drivers, depending on their driving patterns,  size of the battery, and access to gasoline vehicles in the household for longer trips, may also not use public stations much.

- I agree, for many people (including myself), a PHEV is a better solution in both time and money, for now.  If I had more money I would get a new Chevy Bolt (BEV), but right now I'd prefer to bide my time and wait.  A cousin in your area had a BEV a few years ago and its battery was clearly inadequate to her daily needs, and I wish in retrospect that she had opted for something more like what I'm driving now.

- I do think some of the early short-range BEVS, while in some ways a good first effort, in some ways gave the industry somewhat of a black eye.  I see them as very early efforts in a new industry.  I suppose comparisons might be personal computers in the 80s or cell phones in the 80s or 90s.  Similar to those products you had a lot of people complaining about the various imperfections and costs (and health concerns in the case of early cell phones), but eventually their strengths came through, the costs came down, the performance went way up, and they took hold.

- For some BEVs are good enough now.

- You mention charging in 4-8 hours, and I suppose it would take that long to charge a decent-sized BEV battery in a residential garage at 3 to 7 kW, but some charging is faster than that.  The station you mentioned is equipped with two ports that nominally can go to 50 kW each.  I think if it were simultaneous they'd probably drop, and when the battery is nearly full the speed of charging falls off, but this gives an idea that charging to something like 80% full within about half hour is, for a ~30 kWh battery, ok to expect to be able to do. 

- just noting, with an adapter, Teslas can use a CHAdeMO station such as the one you point up.  It is not nearly as fast as a Supercharger.  I'm not sure if they can use other slower station there in the pictures, probably.

- I do like the exercise of going through and looking at how many gasoline stations, but I just can't emphasize enough that a lot of EV driving is based on leaving the house with a full charge, going about one's business without caring as to whether a public station is nearby, returning home with plenty of charge to spare, and charging up overnight without caring that it takes a few hours.

jlsoaz There is a public charger at the Walmart at Oakland Park Blvd and University Drive in Sunrise a few miles from where I live. It can only handle one car at a time. That shopping center holds a couple of thousand ICE cars. The time it takes to recharge doesn't matter much as long as there are only a few EV's that must be plugged in. Otherwise it's just a cute perk for the rich. Hybrids that can plug in but can also run on their own ICE make much more sense.

This one require EVgo network subscription and a key fob.

(Attachment Link)

There are over 6 million people living within a 30 mile radius of Fort Lauderdale and 4.5 million of them are registered drivers.
http://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/article68048512.html
http://www.flhsmv.gov/pdf/driver-vehiclereports/drivers.pdf

A search of Yelp! has there are just under 2000 gas station in Broward County, 1500 in Miami-Dade and 1300 in Palm Beach County for a total about 4800 stations. That works out to about 1 gas station per thousand registered drivers. It takes maybe 10 minutes to fill up and go from a gas station.

To refill an EV typically takes 4 to 8 hours. It would require 25 to 50 times the number of charging points for EV's as gasoline ICE's to provide the same level of service. When we have hurricanes and people are ordered to leave, it isn't even possible to supply enough gasoline in a timely fashion to get out of Florida.
http://time.com/money/4932036/florida-is-running-out-of-gasoline-this-app-is-helping-people-find-it/
https://www.clippercreek.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/TIME-TO-CHARGE-20171208_Final_low-res.pdf
« Last Edit: January 12, 2018, 12:05:24 AM by jlsoaz »

Simen

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Re: a few basic points about electric vehicles
« Reply #121 on: January 12, 2018, 01:53:51 AM »
Quote
- You mention charging in 4-8 hours, and I suppose it would take that long to charge a decent-sized BEV battery in a residential garage at 3 to 7 kW, but some charging is faster than that.  The station you mentioned is equipped with two ports that nominally can go to 50 kW each.  I think if it were simultaneous they'd probably drop, and when the battery is nearly full the speed of charging falls off, but this gives an idea that charging to something like 80% full within about half hour is, for a ~30 kWh battery, ok to expect to be able to do. 

My 24kWh Leaf takes around 7.5 hours to charge when battery are < 5% up to 100% on 3.2kW at home.

Most Chademo/CSS stations here in Norway are set up in pairs (or 3) of 'pumps', and they can each handle up to 50 kW each simultaneously, in my experience. (Each station 'pump' have both Chademo and CSS, but i think only one of the systems can be used at a time. Besides; the layout of the 'pump'-station makes it inconvenient to connect two cars at once to the same 'pump'.)

I would only need to use those quick-charge stations on longer trips, and then i charge only what i need to reach my destination. I calculate around 110 km from 100% to 10% (safe side), and then quick-charge to 80% for additional 90 km. (Numbers for summer-temperatures with 24 kWh bank; i subtract 20 km in temperatures below freezing.) a 10% to around 80% quick-charge takes approx. 25 min. for my 24 kWh Leaf.

Quote
but I just can't emphasize enough that a lot of EV driving is based on leaving the house with a full charge, going about one's business without caring as to whether a public station is nearby, returning home with plenty of charge to spare, and charging up overnight without caring that it takes a few hours.

This is very true for me, and for most other people i know that drives BEV here. :)
« Last Edit: January 12, 2018, 01:57:52 AM by Simen »
I will accept the rules that you feel necessary to your freedom. I am free, no matter what rules surround me. If I find them tolerable, I tolerate them; if I find them too obnoxious, I break them. I am free because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything I do. - (R. A. Heinlein)

jlsoaz

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Re: a few basic points about electric vehicles
« Reply #122 on: January 13, 2018, 10:16:04 AM »
My 24kWh Leaf takes around 7.5 hours to charge when battery are < 5% up to 100% on 3.2kW at home.

Yes, this was about my own situation when I had a 24 kWh Leaf.  I had tried to future-proof my charge station installation at my house by going with a 7.2 kW Clipper Creek and I'm glad I did this, but so far both of the PEVs I have had only accept a bit more than 3 kW on the AC side.  I did have a Tesla Model X leased by a friend charging here a few months ago.

Most Chademo/CSS stations here in Norway are set up in pairs (or 3) of 'pumps', and they can each handle up to 50 kW each simultaneously, in my experience. (Each station 'pump' have both Chademo and CSS, but i think only one of the systems can be used at a time. Besides; the layout of the 'pump'-station makes it inconvenient to connect two cars at once to the same 'pump'.)

I would only need to use those quick-charge stations on longer trips, and then i charge only what i need to reach my destination. I calculate around 110 km from 100% to 10% (safe side), and then quick-charge to 80% for additional 90 km. (Numbers for summer-temperatures with 24 kWh bank; i subtract 20 km in temperatures below freezing.) a 10% to around 80% quick-charge takes approx. 25 min. for my 24 kWh Leaf.

Yes, this was my experience too, on the few occasions when I tried a CHAdeMO for the Leaf, it was usually about 1/2 hour to get to nearly-full and then on my way.  Not cheap, and not something I did a lot, but handy when I needed it.  On the pumps I was trying, they tended to have one CHAdeMO and one CCS (at that time, the only DC pumps in the Tucson area were from a small company trying to establish a reputation for serving all vehicles).  I am not sure theoretically if they could be used simultaneously, or at what power levels.  There were some significant issues with a few early Tucson DCQC stations.  PlugShare helps show that the situation has cleared up as new hardware and new networks have started competing there, and on some of the DCQC stations you see less frustration reported by the drivers, but since I just have a Volt now, I can't use the DCQC.  I'm hoping to land a used BEV in a few years when the prices come down some more.

[but I just can't emphasize enough that a lot of EV driving is based on leaving the house with a full charge, going about one's business without caring as to whether a public station is nearby, returning home with plenty of charge to spare, and charging up overnight without caring that it takes a few hours.
This is very true for me, and for most other people i know that drives BEV here. :)

I think there are a lot of things about driving a PEV that one can convey readily just by talking, but this is one that, for some, takes a little while to sink in.   There aren't too many forms of alternative transportation that have the advantage of being able to refuel at home, but this is one of them.  Others might be natural gas (if natural gas reaches your house - I had a combined gasoline/NGV, but no gas to my house so my use of the nat gas side was limited) and some biofuels.  I suppose one reason among many that I got rid of my nat-gas/gasoline vehicle and opted for an plug-in hybrid/gasoline vehicle is that the latter is do-able for me to charge at home and the former is not do-able for me to fill with nat-gas at home.

There's a DIY-oriented guy at Tucson Electric Vehicle Association who (now that the vehicles are mass-produced by major manufacturers and available to all) has taken his skills and started a business to sell an EVSE that he has designed.  I haven't tried his product, but when mass-produced EVS started to come into play there were a a few skilled people in California and elsewhere who started cottage industries better to serve the EVSE needs of drivers.  I can't remember what the policy of this board is as to posting links to such businesses, but I will post them if it's ok.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2018, 10:54:32 AM by jlsoaz »

Simen

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Re: a few basic points about electric vehicles
« Reply #123 on: January 14, 2018, 12:48:29 AM »
Quote
Yes, this was about my own situation when I had a 24 kWh Leaf.  I had tried to future-proof my charge station installation at my house by going with a 7.2 kW Clipper Creek and I'm glad I did this, but so far both of the PEVs I have had only accept a bit more than 3 kW on the AC side.

My Leaf handles 7.4 kW AC-charging, but alas; electricians are expensive here (and the code is strict), so i have to manage with 1-phase 230 V, 16 A for now. It would probably set me back at least $1200 to install a 1-phase/3-phase 230 V, 32 A charging point at home... (Several BEV's can handle 22 kW AC-charging - VW E-Golf is one of them...)
« Last Edit: January 14, 2018, 12:55:37 AM by Simen »
I will accept the rules that you feel necessary to your freedom. I am free, no matter what rules surround me. If I find them tolerable, I tolerate them; if I find them too obnoxious, I break them. I am free because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything I do. - (R. A. Heinlein)

dnix71

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Re: a few basic points about electric vehicles
« Reply #124 on: January 14, 2018, 11:42:38 AM »
Simen in the US 3 phase power is not commonly provided to residences or even small businesses. There is also a tier of residential meters. Under 10kw is RS-1 where I live. FPL offers a rate analysis for EV owners to see if they would benefit from charging their cars off-peak. If you stay under 10kw, FPL doesn't levy a demand charge. Otherwise you pay an extra $8.26/month per kilowatt peak use over the 10kw base. There is a large church in Fort Lauderdale that installed 40kw worth of generators solely to run a/c. It was cheaper to do that than pay the FPL demand charges each month

11049-0

I used to deliver printed forms. There was a client in a warehouse in West Palm Beach that had the usual split-phase 240v in his shop with a 100 amp service. It would have cost him $20K to pay FPL to install the necessary transformers and wires from one side of Belvedere Road to the other to supply his shop with 3-phase power. He chose instead to pay the electric bill for the shop next door and tap his 100 amp panel and between the 2 panels feed a rotary 3-phase converter in his shop loft.

 He still had to turn off the a/c temporarily when using 3-phase to bump feed setup the 20 inch Hamada sheet-fed press he did 4-color work on. He printed sheets that were folded down into brochures advertising million-dollar homes for sale on the island of Palm Beach, so it was worth the trouble.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2018, 02:57:54 PM by dnix71 »

jlsoaz

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Re: a few basic points about electric vehicles
« Reply #125 on: January 14, 2018, 01:21:57 PM »

My Leaf handles 7.4 kW AC-charging, but alas; electricians are expensive here (and the code is strict), so i have to manage with 1-phase 230 V, 16 A for now. It would probably set me back at least $1200 to install a 1-phase/3-phase 230 V, 32 A charging point at home....

Yes, it cost me quite a bit to install my station.  When I first got a Leaf in 2012, I went for a few months charging at 120 Volts .... I can't remember the amps, but probably something like 10 amps.  It worked out ok to do this since at that time I had a gasoline car to fall back on if an unexpected trip came up, so I charged overnight in the EV.  So, it was a "want" and not a "need" to get L2, but I did get around to buying and installing a station.  It cost me about USD $500 for the station (I got a good deal, otherwise my high-for-that-time 7.2 kW would have cost more) but about $1,500-$2,000 for the labor/panels/conduit/etc., but that was because in effect my station installation forced some issues in my garage overall, and I wanted it all done right (and if I recall I was able to apply at least some of it to subsequent solar/storage in that a new panel I had installed also was needed for that, for complicated reasons).

.. (Several BEV's can handle 22 kW AC-charging - VW E-Golf is one of them...)

As far as I know, the availability of these vehicles is unique to Europe.  I'd love to have better knowledge of what sort of costs there are to the manufacturers for putting the better/faster AC equipment onboard the vehicles, and whether there are tradeoffs other than cost (such as if there are any concerns about battery degradation).

It is not that expensive to buy the equipment for about 19 kW AC in the US (there's a clipper creek model that is not that much more than for the 7.2 kW) but I don't know about install, and as mentioned, I'm not sure which vehicles can accept much higher than 6.6 kW on the AC side.  Maybe some or all Teslas?  I'm not sure what else.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2018, 01:33:09 PM by jlsoaz »

Simen

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Re: a few basic points about electric vehicles
« Reply #126 on: January 14, 2018, 03:59:38 PM »
Simen in the US 3 phase power is not commonly provided to residences or even small businesses.

3 phase in are the standard in most houses here; i've got 3-phase, 240 V, 64 A main breakers, and the phases are balanced through the house. And until recently, the standard was neutral and ground in the same wire; new installations today have ground separated. So far, there's no differential off-peak pricing.

Jlsoaz;
The benefit of having 22 kW 'semi-QC' onboard the car would be much cheaper installation of charging points, and the ability to charge for a hour or two while shopping without getting bankrupt. ;) (Here, 22 kW points costs 6 to 10 cents/minute, and 50 kW quick-charge costs 25 cents/minute.)
There are usually 2 poles with 4 22 kW ports installed at the same place with a pair of 50 kW stations.
I will accept the rules that you feel necessary to your freedom. I am free, no matter what rules surround me. If I find them tolerable, I tolerate them; if I find them too obnoxious, I break them. I am free because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything I do. - (R. A. Heinlein)

dnix71

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Re: a few basic points about electric vehicles
« Reply #127 on: January 14, 2018, 05:43:33 PM »
Simen 3 phase residential is uncommon in most of the world. Norway and Germany are exceptions. According to this site http://www.apiste-global.com/enc/technology_enc/detail/id=1268 Norway has single phase 220v and 3 phase 380v.

I don't like 3-phase at all. Where I work we have equipment crash on a regular basis when one leg drops out for any reason (car hits a pole, weather causes shorts, etc.)

I've been shocked by 120, 208 and 240v. 240v hurts. 380v is touch it and die. We used to have people die at bus stops here because the service drop for lighting was 480, and it is very difficult to get a proper earth in the coral rock that lies just below the topsoil here. Recently bus stops were converted to solar powered LED's.

jlsoaz

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Re: a few basic points about electric vehicles
« Reply #128 on: January 14, 2018, 08:29:29 PM »
Hi - regarding some small businesses started by folks who have knowledge as to making EVs, and related

This one was started by someone in Tucson, Arizona, USA, that I know.  He is knowledgeable about making electric vehicles and when mass-production by established automakers came along, he seems to have devised some useful EVSE (EV Supply Equipment) products.

http://tucsonev.com
Tucson EV
We specialize in J1772 Plugs, Inlets, wire and cords to connect them.

I know these other two less well, but I think similar story lines apply, of filling a niche market in EVSE, except I think they're California-based. 

http://shop.quickchargepower.com/JESLA-is-THE-40-amp-J1772-portable-charging-solution-JESLA.htm
JESLAâ„¢; is THE 40 amp J1772 portable charging solution!

http://evseupgrade.com
Welcome to EVSE Upgrade
"...Our upgrade service leverages the Level 1 cord you already have and improves its function by safely adding Level 2 capability which works on higher power outlets (208-240 volts)..."

I guess to tie this in, my point here is that this is one area in which entrepeneurs and DIY folks seem to be trying to start a few businesses now that the main area of making the cars is being more heavily pushed by the large automakers.